To End or Not to End

[Chuquita]

I don't like GT's ending (way too schmaltzy, not a fan of endings that separate characters I like from one another for the rest of their lives), but I don't like GT. But then I don't like Z's ending either (I don't like runaway-teacher!Gokû, I don't care about the next gen cast)...the original DB's ending I liked (at least manga-wise with Gokû and Chi-Chi flying away on Kinto'un after he finally won the tournament, and with Piccolo living to fight another day, etc...but even then I've since lost most of my interest in GoChi).


Honestly a non-conclusive ending would be fine. Just finish up an arc and end it there; leave it so that arc's questions are answered and its problems are solved, but so that the series could also be picked back up again if desire to continue was there.


I don't think Super's in genuine danger of ending until illness and/or death comes for one of the big two (Nozawa and Toriyama).

[Cipher]

I'm not sure what you mean.

Rather than just continuing the themes running throughout previous arcs in the series -- that ever-expanding sense of wonder, of self-improvement -- it shrinks the universe considerably, provides a sense that time is catching up to the world/these characters, and smacks everyone with a message on self-responsibility.

It's interesting because it twists the series' messages entirely in its final arcs, but not in a way that feels unearned.

[sintzu]

I don't think Super's in genuine danger of ending until illness and/or death comes for one of the big two (Nozawa and Toriyama).

Super is Toriyama's show so I think it's continuation and ending fully depends on him. If it ends for whatever reason then they'll just start a new show without him like they did with GT.

Although Nozawa has been at the center of the franchise since 1986, I don't think her being unable to play Goku will prevent Toriyama from writing more stories and there's no way the companies behind the franchise will end it.

The Dragon Ball franchise has grown far beyond anyone involved with it. if someone leaves, they'll get someone else to keep it going.

[Chuquita]

I don't think Super's in genuine danger of ending until illness and/or death comes for one of the big two (Nozawa and Toriyama).

Super is Toriyama's show so I think it's continuation and ending fully depends on him. If it ends for whatever reason then they'll just start a new show without him like they did with GT.

Although Nozawa has been at the center of the franchise since 1886, I don't think her being unable to play Goku will prevent Toriyama from writing more stories and there's no way the companies behind the franchise will end it.

The Dragon Ball franchise has grown far beyond anyone involved with it. if someone leaves, they'll get someone else to keep it going.

Entirely likely, but a show after Toriyama passes--and I'm not even that big on canon debates--is where the "canon" for Dragon Ball ends for me. None of the stuff that's missing him that's also currently going on (the big one is DBHeroes) appeals to me. I feel like a Toriyama-less Dragon Ball would be just one big self-insert merchandise "look at all these forms and Brolli" show. It's even starting to leak into Super now with not!Brolli in the opening thanks to that Dragon Ball Room.

[RandomGuy96]

Kinda have mixed feelings about this concept in general. On one hand, a series ending conclusively can give more dignity and a feeling of completeness than dragging it on. On the other, sometimes you just enjoy a series and its characters so much that you just don't want to permanently say goodbye to them (DB isn't on this level for me). You want more of them. In that case, what's the problem with more content? I mean worst case scenario, the new content is not as good as what came before and you can just ignore it, it's not like the new content's going to come alive and and burn all copies of the old content. Best case scenario, the characters, setting, and story that you loved so much get expanded and made even better.

Of course, from the company's point of view, all of this is irrelevant. If a franchise prints money, you keep making it. And Dragon Ball appears to be very profitable. For example Resurrection F grossed $65 million on a budget of $5 million, and Kai was able to pull serious views for a while despite almost literally just being a re-run. Then there's the veritable boatload of merchandising.

[Soppa Saia People]

I don't think Super's in genuine danger of ending until illness and/or death comes for one of the big two (Nozawa and Toriyama).

Super is Toriyama's show so I think it's continuation and ending fully depends on him. If it ends for whatever reason then they'll just start a new show without him like they did with GT.

Although Nozawa has been at the center of the franchise since 1886, I don't think her being unable to play Goku will prevent Toriyama from writing more stories and there's no way the companies behind the franchise will end it.

The Dragon Ball franchise has grown far beyond anyone involved with it. if someone leaves, they'll get someone else to keep it going.

Hot damn, 131 years Nozawa has played Goku

[sintzu]

Hot damn, 131 years Nozawa has played Goku

That's clearly 1986, there must be something wrong with your eyes.

[Kid Buu]

For me it was alright in the beginning when we had the 2008 OVA and Battle of Gods, but all the new material started wearing itself out thin on me. Like Dragon Ball Minus, felt extremely pointless.

But hey, I'm sure it makes other people happy, so I guess it can be viewed as a good thing.

[Vijay]

Should NEVER end

Unlike Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, Attack on Titans & a bunch of biggies with tons of 1. Unlikable/ obnoxious leads 2. Uninteresting design

DragonBall has over 150 characters & each one of them have tons of potential for spin-off/backstory to be continued for at least another decade

Take Oob for instance. I think he is by far most polarizing character introduced at tail end of DBZ & his origin, birthplace, parents, utilization of chi etc could be explored further (ignoring GT's garbage portrayal of his character)

Similarly I think Mutaito Sama, Karin, Mr. Popo, Tien all have tons of unexplored potential

[JulieYBM]

I'm already resided to the destiny of the franchise to exist as a perpetual evergreen with no real ending. It'd be impossible to enjoy anything if one couldn't separate one's emotions from a work. I try to focus on the positive, as a result. I just want to see good talent given the opportunity to create the work they want to create. That's been the most frustrating element of Dragon Ball Super thus far, though. Many awesome creators have been tasked with working on it, but they've had next to no opportunities to make works on their best level. That is where the 'lack of an ending' really hurts the franchise.

[precita]

When Nozawa dies that's when Goku dies with her.

Japan has been listening to the same person voice Goku for 30 years. There is no way they will accept the recasting of the lead character. Sure, secondary voice actors like Tenshinhan's, King Kai's, Mr. Satan's, etc. have all either passed away and been replaced, etc....but this is Goku (and Gohan, and Goten) we're talking about.

For stuff like the videogames/merch they have enough Goku sound clips to re-use forever for future videogames, but for the main anime series of new material, no. No way would I watch Dragonball in Japanese with someone new playing Goku, and I imagine the Japanese watching for 30 years would feel even stronger about it.

[ABED]

I'm not sure what you mean.

Rather than just continuing the themes running throughout previous arcs in the series -- that ever-expanding sense of wonder, of self-improvement -- it shrinks the universe considerably, provides a sense that time is catching up to the world/these characters, and smacks everyone with a message on self-responsibility.

It's interesting because it twists the series' messages entirely in its final arcs, but not in a way that feels unearned.

Well put.

I don't like GT's ending (way too schmaltzy, not a fan of endings that separate characters I like from one another for the rest of their lives)

I can see that, but I think the emotion feels earned, especially since it rarely goes that sentimental.

[TheMikado]

I'm not sure what you mean.

Rather than just continuing the themes running throughout previous arcs in the series -- that ever-expanding sense of wonder, of self-improvement -- it shrinks the universe considerably, provides a sense that time is catching up to the world/these characters, and smacks everyone with a message on self-responsibility.

It's interesting because it twists the series' messages entirely in its final arcs, but not in a way that feels unearned.

Great analysis. The thing I loved about GT was seeing things come full circle. The ending with the Dragonballs being unusable for 100 years and Goku gone really made you think how will they get by without these two things they have come to rely on so heavily. However it showed that life goes on. It's almost like a tribute to Toriyama.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Honestly, I'm conflicted. I do love that stories eventually end, but I also love being able to re-visit them with new material. So basically, I guess I'm fine so long as the new material is at least good enough for me to roll with and enjoy, and so far for the majority, the 2008 special onward has been enjoyable enough for me to want to keep seeing more.

I would hope to se it end eventually though, albeit hopefully with a better ending than what 'Z' itself originally had. And even then, it'd mostly be that I'd want to see it stop moving 'forward' in time - I'd still be totally fine with say, yearly or so specials dedicating to showing us character back-histories and stuff.

[Lunaar]

This is really difficult to say, as I've read through this thread and only Vijay comes close to how I feel - but hey, I don't think Dragon Ball should end. That being said, I do appreciate closure in a story. I share the same sentiment with most of you on the content we've been given post-2008: There's a lot of stuff I like and there's a lot I don't. It's really messy and absolutely changes/perverts some aspects of the original '84-'95 run. What I'm afraid of the most is Toei dragging Goku on and on forever, constantly adding new stories and fights for him to be waku waku about.

Let me be clear: Dragon Ball should continue, Goku's story should end. Let the world move on and give us new adventures in the wake of his influence. Maybe that's just me, I dunno.

[Basaku]

It's not part of the same story.

What dos it have to do with anything? Same continuity or not all long-running franchises will suffer bad periods and subpar entries/episodes/installements. My point was about trying to ignore/get through the bad to reach the good stuff which always makes it all worth. It was totally worth to suffer through Die Another Day to experience Daniel Craig Bond

And my two cents, I think Batman Begins is the best of the trilogy.

Not when Heath Ledger's Joker exists and you know it

[ABED]

I understand the thought behind "just disregard any material you don't like" but I can't get behind that. There is a beauty in a story being completed, especially if it's done well. If I know there's something else after a supposed ending, it does impinge on that feeling. T2 is not a lesser film because of subpar sequels, but the beauty of that ending is soiled with the sequels.

Not when Heath Ledger's Joker exists and you know it

A great villain doesn't make up for a Batman that's constantly behind the 8 ball. The Joker is too powerful, and Batman has a thumb up his ass. The hero is not up to the level of the villain. It makes it a lesser film in my eye. Christ, he knocks himself out at the end of the batpod chase scene even though there's a wide open road and his bike had just driven up a wall. That's how impotent he is. His only victory is a lie. One great performance doesn't make up for that. Batman should ideally be the most interesting character in his own story and in Begins, he was. It had a more compelling story and better action.

What dos it have to do with anything?

We didn't need to have gone through Batman & Robin to get to The Dark Knight Trilogy. It just so happens that we did. And I think by focusing on telling a complete story, you run less of a chance of going through such lows as the one's you mentioned.

always makes it all worth.

I don't think it always makes it worth it, especially when the drought can be a long time. At least with Bond movies and Batman movies, you can typically disregard any you don't like and just watch the one's you do. Stories like DB are so serialized that it's just not the same experience.

[ekrolo2]

Not when Heath Ledger's Joker exists and you know it

A great villain doesn't make up for a Batman that's constantly behind the 8 ball. The Joker is too powerful, and Batman has a thumb up his ass. The hero is not up to the level of the villain. It makes it a lesser film in my eye. Christ, he knocks himself out at the end of the batpod chase scene even though there's a wide open road and his bike had just driven up a wall. That's how impotent he is. His only victory is a lie. One great performance doesn't make up for that. Batman should ideally be the most interesting character in his own story and in Begins, he was. It had a more compelling story and better action.[/quote]
Ehh, I'm fine with his only victory being a lie, that is what the whole point of the story is. Superhero has a really bad habit of sucking the good guys dicks and having them fully win even in situations where the context for them NOT fully winning or even failing is much more interesting. But I do agree with you, TDK lacks the good focus Begins and Rises have on Batman, losing him in the shuffle of many other characters & arcs.

We didn't need to have gone through Batman & Robin to get to The Dark Knight Trilogy. It just so happens that we did. And I think by focusing on telling a complete story, you run less of a chance of going through such lows as the one's you mentioned.

If the Red Book edition of Forever is any indication, Batman was gonna be going in that direction even with Schumacher.

[

[Basaku]

I understand the thought behind "just disregard any material you don't like" but I can't get behind that. There is a beauty in a story being completed, especially if it's done well.

The question is, what you gonna do in an era where nothing ends, most obscure and barely-succesful series/franchises from the 70s-90s get rebooted and remade just for the sake of any brand recognition and every fictional universe gets milked to death? Of course there's beauty in a definite ending, but it's just not going to happen

One great performance doesn't make up for that.

When the perfomance is that good, yes it does. Happens rarely but when it does, it's pure cinematic magic.

Batman should ideally be the most interesting character in his own story and in Begins, he was. It had a more compelling story and better action.

Except that Bale's performance and Batman Begin's writing is nothing special. It's good, but nothing above solid filmmaking. It can't compete with the mamooth of a performance of Joker in TDK.

Stories like DB are so serialized that it's just not the same experience.

Fans don't seem to have much problem disregarding Garlic saga or Broly or really anything they don't like. Even super-canon stuff like Buu saga will get overlooked for its flaws "because there's so much else better stuff in the series I give it a pass on Buu missteps"

[ABED]

Superhero has a really bad habit of sucking the good guys dicks and having them fully win even in situations where the context for them NOT fully winning or even failing is much more interesting. But I do agree with you, TDK lacks the good focus Begins and Rises have on Batman, losing him in the shuffle of many other characters & arcs.

I wouldn't put it as sucking off the good guy, and I honestly don't mind if the good guy loses in the middle act of a story. It's like The Empire Strikes Back. It's the middle part of a three act story. It gives the story greater stakes. It's like how Goku doesn't defeat Vegeta. He does well, but gets his ass handed to him by the end. My issue with TDK is that Batman is at no point on par with The Joker. Even Alfred can see The Joker for who he is. That plus the ending doesn't really work seeing as how it can easily be proven that Harvey was a murderer. Then again, it's a police department that can't figure out that Bruce Wayne is Batman even though their list of suspects would be incredibly short. I'm happy The Dark Knight Trilogy was a complete story. It's a big reason the films are as well regarded as they are.

Of course there's beauty in a definite ending, but it's just not going to happen

The creators of Back to the Future prove that it can be done if you want it to.

When the perfomance is that good, yes it does. Happens rarely but when it does, it's pure cinematic magic.

I don't think so. It's a great performance, but it's just one and not enough to make up for a limp protagonist. It's a good movie, but I think the first one has more going on for it.

Except that Bale's performance and Batman Begin's writing is nothing special. It's good, but nothing above solid filmmaking. It can't compete with the mamooth of a performance of Joker in TDK.

That performance is the best thing it has going for it. Begins was cleverly plotted, well paced and a great character study in how a guy goes from an angry youth to a costumed vigilante. It brilliantly integrated 3 villains into its story all the while giving every character enough room to breathe. Hell, Gordon and Alfred also get plenty of great scenes and moments to shine. Also, Gotham feels like Gotham, not just a modern metropolis. I like Gotham to feel like a city that likes to be dirty.

Fans don't seem to have much problem disregarding Garlic saga or Broly or really anything they don't like.

Garlic Jr. is a story that is VERY short and lifts right out. Broly is 3 movies that aren't in continuity. What about the arcs that are part of the narrative and are far longer? It's much more akin to slogging through 3 or 4 seasons of a serialized network TV show to get to another good season. Meanwhile there's been years worth of development and new characters that have been introduced. That's a lot to ask for me to slog my way through on the off chance that I might like a later season/arc. The arcs in DB can get quite long.