To End or Not to End

[Basaku]

The creators of Back to the Future prove that it can be done if you want it to.

That's not what I'm saying (or anyone else really). Everyone knows it can be done and maybe even SHOULD be done in ideal world, but it's just not the current reality how entertainment companies run their businesses nowadays. Maybe it will change again in say 20 years, but for now it's milking milking milking and betting on brand recognition above all else.

That's a lot to ask for me to slog my way through on the off chance that I might like a later season/arc.

Sure is, but hey, you DO have a choice to not support the creators financially if you think they're asking too much and return only when things get better. It's entertainemnt, not marriage

[ABED]

The creators of Back to the Future prove that it can be done if you want it to.

That's not what I'm saying (or anyone else really). Everyone knows it can be done and maybe even SHOULD be done in ideal world, but it's just not the current reality how entertainment companies run their businesses nowadays. Maybe it will change again in say 20 years, but for now it's milking milking milking and betting on brand recognition above all else.

That's a lot to ask for me to slog my way through on the off chance that I might like a later season/arc.

Sure is, but hey, you DO have a choice to not support the creators financially if you think they're asking too much and return only when things get better. It's entertainemnt, not marriage

Thing is, I think if the creators of these IP's held on to the rights to their creations, I don't think the PTB would try to pressure them into creating more movies/TV series. I honestly don't. Like I'm pretty sure that if James Cameron held on to the rights for Terminator, no one would be pressuring him to have made 3 or 4 or 5. I think he's producing a new one simply to wash the taste of the inferior sequels out of the public's mouth. If Toriyama said "no" to things like GT or Super, I think Toei/Shueisha would have enough respect to not keep going.

As much as people talk about milking something because there's brand recognition, we've seen too many times that it's not always enough. And I do think the audience want new properties and not just new stories with old ones.

[sintzu]

I understand the thought behind "just disregard any material you don't like" but I can't get behind that. There is a beauty in a story being completed, especially if it's done well.

If I know there's something else after a supposed ending, it does impinge on that feeling.

It is completed, the original story started with Pilaf and ended with Buu. no matter what we get afterwards, that original story will always have that beginning and ending.

How can it do that when it's so different from the original and was released nearly 20 years later ?

[TheMikado]

I understand the thought behind "just disregard any material you don't like" but I can't get behind that. There is a beauty in a story being completed, especially if it's done well.

If I know there's something else after a supposed ending, it does impinge on that feeling.

It is completed, the original story started with Pilaf and ended with Buu. no matter what we get afterwards, that original story will always have that beginning and ending.

How can it do that when it's so different from the original and was released nearly 20 years later ?

The problem with Super is that it retroactively changes lore. The Beerus/Frieza thing being the big offender. The new material has changed your understanding of the old Material so it can't really just be ignored.

[ABED]

It's like you can't put toothpaste back in the bottle. I can ignore it, but I know it's there.

[sintzu]

It's like you can't put toothpaste back in the bottle. I can ignore it, but I know it's there.

The new material has changed your understanding of the old Material so it can't really just be ignored.

Both of you make good points but what other option is there ? We're in an era where companies are too afraid to come up with new franchises so instead they're either keeping ongoing ones going beyond their capability or are bringing old ones back.

[ABED]

I don't think that's totally true. Sure, there's fear in creating new franchises, but the risk can pay off if it's done well. There's no real answer to the question "What other option is there?" The closest I can get to that is that if a creator believes strongly enough in their vision and wants to end it, he should stick up for his work, especially if they own their work.

[TheMikado]

I feel like the answer has been right in their faces the whole time. Make a DB Heroes/Online/Time Patrol premise which creates mash-up scenarios. Don't mess with old stuff at all but expand the universe with things that aren't suppose to be "canon".

I keep bringing this up but they managed to make a Frieza clone FAIR more interesting in 56 seconds of promo clip then the entirety of what they did with Frost. Its really a disgrace..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzRKRHDUeaA

[MathSSJ]

I understand the thought behind "just disregard any material you don't like" but I can't get behind that. There is a beauty in a story being completed, especially if it's done well.

If I know there's something else after a supposed ending, it does impinge on that feeling.

It is completed, the original story started with Pilaf and ended with Buu. no matter what we get afterwards, that original story will always have that beginning and ending.

How can it do that when it's so different from the original and was released nearly 20 years later ?

The problem with Super is that it retroactively changes lore. The Beerus/Frieza thing being the big offender. The new material has changed your understanding of the old Material so it can't really just be ignored.

And the problem with changing lore is?

Toriyama retconned shit all the time. He would twist and discard previously established lore if it meant for a more interesting story. He is the one that would shamelessly change stuff from the original WSJ to the Tankobon release and pretend that never happened.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Beers/Freeza segment is anywhere near close to being a worthwhile addition/retcon, but let's not lie to ourselves and say there is no precedence on that.

[sintzu]

Sure, there's fear in creating new franchises, but the risk can pay off if it's done well.

If a creator believes strongly enough in their vision and wants to end it, he should stick up for his work, especially if they own their work.

Of course it can but companies don't want to give anything a chance to grow. If something isn't a mega hit from day one then they drop it. DB and other franchises weren't big hits right away, it took them time to develop into that but if they were released today they wouldn't have gotten that chance. It doesn't matter if you have a good story to tell or if it has a good chance of being a hit, if it can't be turnd into a franchise then it's not worth it to them.

Toriyama did. once the manga was done he left the franchise alone for 13 years before coming back with the 2008 OVA.

The problem with franchises like DB is that even if the original creator is done, the companies won't be. When he walked away in 1995 they moved on without him with GT. when he wouldn't give them new material for a new anime they made Kai. They started work on BOG without him and he only got involved so that the franchise wouldn't get another DB evolution and that's probably why he's still writing for it.

If you were a creator and you had to pick between letting a company drag your story through the mud or you coming out of retirment to continue what you already finished, what would you pick ?

[Cipher]

I understand the thought behind "just disregard any material you don't like" but I can't get behind that. There is a beauty in a story being completed, especially if it's done well. If I know there's something else after a supposed ending, it does impinge on that feeling. T2 is not a lesser film because of subpar sequels, but the beauty of that ending is soiled with the sequels.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

[UltimateHammerBro]

He is the one that would shamelessly change stuff from the original WSJ to the Tankobon release and pretend that never happened.

What did he change?

[Gaffer Tape]

He is the one that would shamelessly change stuff from the original WSJ to the Tankobon release and pretend that never happened.

What did he change?

Changed Gohan's age in his initial appearance from 3 to 4, changed the dialogue in a conversation between Gohan and Kuririn when they meet to fight the Saiyans, just to name a couple of examples.

[OhHiRenan]

It is completed, the original story started with Pilaf and ended with Buu. no matter what we get afterwards, that original story will always have that beginning and ending.

How can it do that when it's so different from the original and was released nearly 20 years later ?

The problem with Super is that it retroactively changes lore. The Beerus/Frieza thing being the big offender. The new material has changed your understanding of the old Material so it can't really just be ignored.

And the problem with changing lore is?

Toriyama retconned shit all the time. He would twist and discard previously established lore if it meant for a more interesting story. He is the one that would shamelessly change stuff from the original WSJ to the Tankobon release and pretend that never happened.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Beers/Freeza segment is anywhere near close to being a worthwhile addition/retcon, but let's not lie to ourselves and say there is no precedence on that.

The Tankobon retcons are so small though and exist to make the overall story a bit tighter. Yeah, it's a precedent, but it's a bit more thought out I feel.

[UltimateHammerBro]

He is the one that would shamelessly change stuff from the original WSJ to the Tankobon release and pretend that never happened.

What did he change?

Changed Gohan's age in his initial appearance from 3 to 4, changed the dialogue in a conversation between Gohan and Kuririn when they meet to fight the Saiyans, just to name a couple of examples.

It doesn't sound like much was changed. For all we know, and I suspect after re-reading Bakuman, changes like those could have been due to his editor.

[Basaku]

Thing is, I think if the creators of these IP's held on to the rights to their creations, I don't think the PTB would try to pressure them into creating more movies/TV series. I honestly don't. Like I'm pretty sure that if James Cameron held on to the rights for Terminator, no one would be pressuring him to have made 3 or 4 or 5. I think he's producing a new one simply to wash the taste of the inferior sequels out of the public's mouth. If Toriyama said "no" to things like GT or Super, I think Toei/Shueisha would have enough respect to not keep going.

But majority of creators do not have the rights to the IPs they create and neither does Toriyama. Shueisha owns the IP. Cultural aspect of higher respect to ther author could play a role here, but ultimately from the legal POV Shueisha could easily say "sure dear Toei, make GT even if Toriyama is kicking and screaming, we want the moneyz!".

[ABED]

Nolan doesn't have control of the IP, but the studio has enough respect for him to not use his take on the character. They aren't going to make a direct sequel to TDKR. And I think even though Toriyama doesn't own DB, the people who do have enough respect for him that if he didn't want it to continue, they would've respected his wishes.

When he walked away in 1995 they moved on without him with GT.

But didn't he give it his blessing?

If you were a creator and you had to pick between letting a company drag your story through the mud or you coming out of retirment to continue what you already finished, what would you pick ?

That depends on where my headspace is at.

[Basaku]

Nolan doesn't have control of the IP, but the studio has enough respect for him to not use his take on the character. They aren't going to make a direct sequel to TDKR. And I think even though Toriyama doesn't own DB, the people who do have enough respect for him that if he didn't want it to continue, they would've respected his wishes.

Until a new CEO comes in and says "eh nah, we're still making it". I mean sure, it would be great if it always worked like this, with respect to the creator. But that's clearly not the reality for most IPs/fictional universes around the world. And Toei was making BOG originally even without Toriyama's involvement so.

[ABED]

Of course it can but companies don't want to give anything a chance to grow. If something isn't a mega hit from day one then they drop it.

It's not an unfair statement, but not completely true. There are places where they do give shows and stories chances to grow.

[sintzu]

Nolan doesn't have control of the IP, but the studio has enough respect for him to not use his take on the character.

But didn't he give it his blessing?

That depends on where my headspace is at.

It's not respect, Nolan's movies do really well critically and financially so they want him to keep making movies for them. if they tried to continue his trilogy he would've went to one of their rival studios which is something they don't want.

He also called it a side story later on so he obviously didn't agree with it being marketed as an official part of his story. His blessing was more than likely him just putting on a face.

At least you get my point, he essentially had to pick between 2 evils.

There are places where they do give shows and stories chances to grow.

Of course there are but in today's world you're more likely to find a company that wants a big hit from the start then one that's willing to wait for something to grow over time.