Did Goku have a form between God and Blue?

[TheUltimateNinja]

I had a thought last night ... the last time we see Goku using his strong Base is against Monaka-Beerus in Ep. 42. He then undergoes Delayed Onset Energy Disorder in Ep. 43. We see Goku fight Copy-Vegeta in his Base form in Ep. 46.

What if during the Delayed Onset Energy Disorder, Goku lost the additional padding of his SSGod power that he absorbed and he can now only rely on the training from Whis with Vegeta?! What if this was the silent retcon?!?

He's still at least Buuhan+ in power judging by how Copy Vegeta completely thrashed Gotenks, though. So that's only like a 15-20x drop in power. And Base Vegeta was equal to Base Goku pre disorder and Vegeta never experienced any power loss.

Could it be anywhere possible that either Base Goku was higher than Base Vegeta by the small margin because of SSGod? Basically meaning, Goku's Base = Whis Training + SSGod Power, while Vegeta's Base = Whis Training.

Yeah, I got pissed when I recalled that the Copy-Vegeta arc was right after the Delayed Onset Energy Disorder episode. It just can't line up!

No, Vegeta had already trained with Whis for half a year by the time Goku showed up there, and he'd caught up to Goku in that time. This is stated by Goku himself, there's no getting around the fact that Goku's base was clearly intended to be God tier at least until the Copy Vegeta arc. Out of universe there's probably been a retcon of some sort, but in universe it's really hard to explain, even the two base theory is falling apart now. Hopefully this tournament will give us answers since Goku's going to fight a lot of God tier opponents.

[Gog]

If you consider super saiyan 1, super saiyan 2 and super saiyan 3 as forms in between SSB and his base form. Then yes he has quite a lot of forms between the two, and that's not even mentioning all of the one off forms in between 1 and 2

[TheUltimateNinja]

If you consider super saiyan 1, super saiyan 2 and super saiyan 3 as forms in between SSB and his base form. Then yes he has quite a lot of forms between the two, and that's not even mentioning all of the one off forms in between 1 and 2

They're all below God, though. He's wonder about a "Saiyan Beyond God" like state where Goku surpasses SSGod.

[Gog]

If you consider super saiyan 1, super saiyan 2 and super saiyan 3 as forms in between SSB and his base form. Then yes he has quite a lot of forms between the two, and that's not even mentioning all of the one off forms in between 1 and 2

They're all below God, though. He's wonder about a "Saiyan Beyond God" like state where Goku surpasses SSGod.

Then nothing then. There is no form between SSG and SSB, hell Saiyan Beyond God is simply the mastery of the SSG power into the base form. It's technically not a new form.

[vegetaslegacy15]

I still subscribe to the theory that they can switch the god ki on and off. I.e when they fought in the tournament against universe 6 they were using their regular ki bases except for when they were fighting hit. Thats why they went super saiyan because they weren't using god ki. It makes sense to me anyway.

[Hugo Boss]

I have been trying to figure out for a long time what happened after Goku lost SSGod.

Is the Super Saiyan form he had a SSBlue without the god ki? Because it is Super Saiyan that absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God.

Did Vegeta ever get this form before he got SSBlue?

After Goku lost SSGod his SS became as strong as SSGod. In other words, a Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, but without the God ki.

I believe that Super Saiyan Blue is like a Super Saiyan God going Super Saiyan. Instead of gold it becomes blue. Naturally, this power surpasses Super Saiyan God and it has God ki.

I think that, after a while under Whis' teachings, Vegeta caught up to Goku's level after he absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God, so when Vegeta goes Super Saiyan he would have a powerlevel similar to that of a Super Saiyan God, as Goku did. Only he wouldn't have God ki.

When they went to face the revived Freeza, their Super Saiyan forms became Blue due to the fact that they leveled up so much as to have the power of Super Saiyan God in their natural states.

I think that would work fine if you just forget they use the gold Super Saiyan later in the anime (the equation used by The Mikado in a nutshell). In the manga, we know the gold forms work fine because Super Saiyan God is a separated form from the others, being a step behind Super Saiyan Blue.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

They're all below God, though. He's wonder about a "Saiyan Beyond God" like state where Goku surpasses SSGod.

Well, the state with SSG power is actually slightly weaker than SSG, Goku surpassed SSG because he trained. "Saiyan beyond God" is a fan-term that was derived from the description of FnF Base Goku in Dragon Ball Heroes, where he was described as "a Saiyan who has surpassed God". If Goku was to transform into a SSG in FnF like he did in BoG, he would have gotten slightly stronger.

[ChiefWamsutta]

After Goku lost SSGod his SS became as strong as SSGod. In other words, a Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, but without the God ki.

I believe that Super Saiyan Blue is like a Super Saiyan God going Super Saiyan. Instead of gold it becomes blue. Naturally, this power surpasses Super Saiyan God and it has God ki.

I think that, after a while under Whis' teachings, Vegeta caught up to Goku's level after he absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God, so when Vegeta goes Super Saiyan he would have a powerlevel similar to that of a Super Saiyan God, as Goku did. Only he wouldn't have God ki.

When they went to face the revived Freeza, their Super Saiyan forms became Blue due to the fact that they leveled up so much as to have the power of Super Saiyan God in their natural states.

I think that would work fine if you just forget they use the gold Super Saiyan later in the anime (the equation used by The Mikado in a nutshell). In the manga, we know the gold forms work fine because Super Saiyan God is a separated form from the others, being a step behind Super Saiyan Blue.

Hmmmm, okay, so when a Saiyan is in Base (black hair) and wants to turn into a Super Saiyan they get yellow hair, but when a Saiyan is in Super Saiyan God (red hair) and want to turn into a Super Saiyan they would get blue hair? I can agree with that.

I also agree that Goku's Super Saiyan form should be as powerful as a Super Saiyan God, but just without God ki. When he accessed God ki with Whis, it probably pushed his power further.

Goku Pre-BoG: Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3
Goku After God Absorption: Base < SS1 = SSGod < SS2 < SS3
Goku After Whis: Base < SS1 = SSGod < SS2 < SS3 < SSBlue
Vegeta After Whis: Base < SS1 = SSGod < SS2 << SSBlue

My only reservations are:
1) If Goku can have his *SS with the power of SSGod* to have God ki, which becomes SSBlue, then why can't he/hasn't he done that to his SS2 to become SSBlue 2?
2) I'm fine with Zamasu being around 2*SSGod Goku BoG power, but I don't like the idea of Future Trunks, Cabba, or Frost being that level. It is what makes this all confusing.

So would this *Super Saiyan with the power of SSGod without God ki* be classified as a different form entirely?!

[TheUltimateNinja]

Hmmmm, okay, so when a Saiyan is in Base (black hair) and wants to turn into a Super Saiyan they get yellow hair, but when a Saiyan is in Super Saiyan God (red hair) and want to turn into a Super Saiyan they would get blue hair? I can agree with that.

I also agree that Goku's Super Saiyan form should be as powerful as a Super Saiyan God, but just without God ki. When he accessed God ki with Whis, it probably pushed his power further.

Goku Pre-BoG: Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3
Goku After God Absorption: Base < SS1 = SSGod < SS2 < SS3
Goku After Whis: Base < SS1 = SSGod < SS2 < SS3 < SSBlue
Vegeta After Whis: Base < SS1 = SSGod < SS2 << SSBlue

My only reservations are:
1) If Goku can have his *SS with the power of SSGod* to have God ki, which becomes SSBlue, then why can't he/hasn't he done that to his SS2 to become SSBlue 2?
2) I'm fine with Zamasu being around 2*SSGod Goku BoG power, but I don't like the idea of Future Trunks, Cabba, or Frost being that level. It is what makes this all confusing.

So would this *Super Saiyan with the power of SSGod without God ki* be classified as a different form entirely?!

The problem is SSBlue gets an absolutely insane multiplier if you consider it as transforming into a form surpassing SSGod while already having the power of SSGod, that's stronger than SSGod squared.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Goku After Whis: Base < SS1 = SSGod < SS2 < SS3 < SSBlue
Vegeta After Whis: Base < SS1 = SSGod < SS2 << SSBlue

The problem is SSBlue gets an absolutely insane multiplier if you consider it as transforming into a form surpassing SSGod while already having the power of SSGod, that's stronger than SSGod squared.

I don't think it would be that high if you think of it as a SSGod transforming into a Super Saiyan. SSBlue = 50*SSGod = 50*New Super Saiyan 1 = 50*50*Goku's New Base. Regardless of that, I wouldn't focus on the multipliers at all anymore. The numbers are too high and the scale is too far off.

Anyways, do you believe this *Super Saiyan with the power of SSGod without God ki* should be classified as a new form entirely?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Goku After Whis: Base < SS1 = SSGod < SS2 < SS3 < SSBlue
Vegeta After Whis: Base < SS1 = SSGod < SS2 << SSBlue

The problem is SSBlue gets an absolutely insane multiplier if you consider it as transforming into a form surpassing SSGod while already having the power of SSGod, that's stronger than SSGod squared.

I don't think it would be that high if you think of it as a SSGod transforming into a Super Saiyan. SSBlue = 50*SSGod = 50*New Super Saiyan 1 = 50*50*Goku's New Base. Regardless of that, I wouldn't focus on the multipliers at all anymore. The numbers are too high and the scale is too far off.

Anyways, do you believe this *Super Saiyan with the power of SSGod without God ki* should be classified as a new form entirely?

No, it's just Goku hanging on to the remnants of the God power, as he himself said he didn't notice any difference at all going between forms, so the whole time he was just relying on the same source of power.

[Saturnine]

It's very difficult to explain from a in-universe perspective. In canon it has been said multiple times, that the base form is the best state as far as calmness and ki drain are concerned. If there's a choice to attain the same level of power in a transformed or base state, the base should always be chosen. Ultimate Gohan is the very embodiment of this idea.

It's quite obvious Base Cabba cannot be God-tier, if only because he wasn't even aware of there existing such a thing as a regular Super Saiyan. His power was very impressive alright, but only as far as a base Saiyan can go without transforming. If we assume base Goku and Vegeta were holding back, it would still be more logical from the canonical standpoint for them to just power up in base (having those huge God reserves to draw from), than use Super Saiyan, which would only let them access a fraction of the full power of the godly base state.

So the only explanation is Toei's intention to show off as many transformations as possible, because people like those, and not have SSj1-3 become obsolete, thinking of fan service. They probably thought the base state having so much power would be dull to watch, because kids want to see Goku transformed when he's fighting. The hard, two-base theory is still probably the best way to explain this, but this whole mess was solved best by Toyotaro with the reintroduction of SSj God proper. Him doing that at least let us know that base Goku and Vegeta are in no instance at God level.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Anyways, do you believe this *Super Saiyan with the power of SSGod without God ki* should be classified as a new form entirely?

No, it's just Goku hanging on to the remnants of the God power, as he himself said he didn't notice any difference at all going between forms, so the whole time he was just relying on the same source of power.

So this SS Grade 4 with SSGod power and the DBZ SS Grade 4 are the same forms?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Anyways, do you believe this *Super Saiyan with the power of SSGod without God ki* should be classified as a new form entirely?

No, it's just Goku hanging on to the remnants of the God power, as he himself said he didn't notice any difference at all going between forms, so the whole time he was just relying on the same source of power.

So this SS Grade 4 with SSGod power and the DBZ SS Grade 4 are the same forms?

Basically. It's essentially like if he borrowed a huge amount of ki from Beerus. He may have obtained the power of a God, but it's still the same form.

[kinisking]

It's simple

Anime: SSG~Base < SSJ1/2/3 < SSB
Manga: Base < SSJ1/2/3 < SSG < SSB


In the manga only SSB is above SSG, in the anime everything is above SSG.

Whether that makes sense and the story consistent or not is another issue. Do not try to mix what is presented with consistent logic. It doesn't work.

Why is base SSG when they specifically say in Super that super Saiyan equals SS god?

[ChiefWamsutta]

No, it's just Goku hanging on to the remnants of the God power, as he himself said he didn't notice any difference at all going between forms, so the whole time he was just relying on the same source of power.

So this SS Grade 4 with SSGod power and the DBZ SS Grade 4 are the same forms?

Basically. It's essentially like if he borrowed a huge amount of ki from Beerus. He may have obtained the power of a God, but it's still the same form.

So what would you say are the current canon Saiyan forms?

[TheUltimateNinja]

So this SS Grade 4 with SSGod power and the DBZ SS Grade 4 are the same forms?

Basically. It's essentially like if he borrowed a huge amount of ki from Beerus. He may have obtained the power of a God, but it's still the same form.

So what would you say are the current canon Saiyan forms?

It would be the 9 Grade forms I listed earlier in addition to these branching forms: Oozaru, SSGod, SSBlue, SSRose, LSSJ (Or whatever the U6 girl's transformation is called)

[ChiefWamsutta]

Basically. It's essentially like if he borrowed a huge amount of ki from Beerus. He may have obtained the power of a God, but it's still the same form.

So what would you say are the current canon Saiyan forms?

It would be the 9 Grade forms I listed earlier in addition to these branching forms: Oozaru, SSGod, SSBlue, SSRose, LSSJ (Or whatever the U6 girl's transformation is called)

I like all of this, and agree with it. ... I guess I'm just thinking that this Super Saiyan with SSGod powers could be argued to be ... like a godly enhancement, as in a different variation of Super Saiyan?

[TheUltimateNinja]

So what would you say are the current canon Saiyan forms?

It would be the 9 Grade forms I listed earlier in addition to these branching forms: Oozaru, SSGod, SSBlue, SSRose, LSSJ (Or whatever the U6 girl's transformation is called)

I like all of this, and agree with it. ... I guess I'm just thinking that this Super Saiyan with SSGod powers could be argued to be ... like a godly enhancement, as in a different variation of Super Saiyan?

If that does exist Goku never uses it again, though, which leads me to believe that it's not a different form he can use at will.

[Hugo Boss]

My only reservations are:
1) If Goku can have his *SS with the power of SSGod* to have God ki, which becomes SSBlue, then why can't he/hasn't he done that to his SS2 to become SSBlue 2?
2) I'm fine with Zamasu being around 2*SSGod Goku BoG power, but I don't like the idea of Future Trunks, Cabba, or Frost being that level. It is what makes this all confusing.

So would this *Super Saiyan with the power of SSGod without God ki* be classified as a different form entirely?!

I have no clue about the first one. Perhaps that's what Toriyama meant when he said Goku would probably not use Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 anymore.

Yes. And don't forget about Gohan, who would presumably be at least as strong as Super Saiyan God, as crazy as that sounds.

Not really. This is the same old regular Super Saiyan. It just happens to be much more powerful than before.