Representations of Goku's character (GT & Super)

[Totamo]

The issue I had with goku being a kid was that it got rid of the only definite development goku ever had.

Its debatable whether goku developed as a character throughout dragon ball and z, i think he did but others can give valid points he didn't.

However no one can argue that he didn't grow up physically, which was a big deal especially when at the time, characters stayed the same age, it was gamble for toriyama to age goku, something thats very iconic for his character. Hell, the reason gohan has so many fans is because he did grew up along side them.


GT ruined that for in one fell swoop. Turning goku into a child was a turn off for many and the one thing no can argue that GT did. You can argue whether its good or bad but you can't argue that it happened. This is also the biggest problem people have with goku in GT.

The problem people have with in super Goku is that he is selfish, naive and only cares about fighting. Now I can debate this.

That right there sums up how i feel about it

[ABED]

Hell, the reason gohan has so many fans is because he did grew up along side them.

I doubt his popularity had anything to do with Gohan aging, much less being THE reason.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Hell, the reason gohan has so many fans is because he did grew up along side them.

I doubt his popularity had anything to do with Gohan aging, much less being THE reason.

I don't know, I like Buu Arc Gohan much more than his younger versions.

[Cipher]

The issue I had with goku being a kid was that it got rid of the only definite development goku ever had.

Its debatable whether goku developed as a character throughout dragon ball and z, i think he did but others can give valid points he didn't.

However no one can argue that he didn't grow up physically, which was a big deal especially when at the time, characters stayed the same age, it was gamble for toriyama to age goku, something thats very iconic for his character. Hell, the reason gohan has so many fans is because he did grew up along side them.


GT ruined that for in one fell swoop. Turning goku into a child was a turn off for many and the one thing no can argue that GT did. You can argue whether its good or bad but you can't argue that it happened. This is also the biggest problem people have with goku in GT.

The problem people have with in super Goku is that he is selfish, naive and only cares about fighting. Now I can debate this.

That right there sums up how i feel about it

I don't know that I agree all that much that Goku's physical age is necessary for conveying his growth as a character.

As I said earlier, his portrayal in GT feels perfectly in line with where he'd be at that point mentally, and while his childish appearance doesn't impact the series all that much outside of light gags for most of its run, I do like how it interacts with his relationship with Pan and the way it unlocks the amaaaazing scene he gets with Kuririn and Kame-Sennin at the end.

I don't know. I'm not saying GT is a perfect series -- Toriyama's presence is sorely missed and it isn't nearly as good at presenting serialized drama as any of the other Dragon Ball anime are -- but I don't find turning Goku back into a child to be the undeniable conceptual wrong a lot of fans seem to.

[Totamo]

The issue I had with goku being a kid was that it got rid of the only definite development goku ever had.

Its debatable whether goku developed as a character throughout dragon ball and z, i think he did but others can give valid points he didn't.

However no one can argue that he didn't grow up physically, which was a big deal especially when at the time, characters stayed the same age, it was gamble for toriyama to age goku, something thats very iconic for his character. Hell, the reason gohan has so many fans is because he did grew up along side them.


GT ruined that for in one fell swoop. Turning goku into a child was a turn off for many and the one thing no can argue that GT did. You can argue whether its good or bad but you can't argue that it happened. This is also the biggest problem people have with goku in GT.

The problem people have with in super Goku is that he is selfish, naive and only cares about fighting. Now I can debate this.

That right there sums up how i feel about it

I don't know that I agree all that much that Goku's physical age is necessary for conveying his growth as a character.

As I said earlier, his portrayal in GT feels perfectly in line with where he'd be at that point mentally, and while his childish appearance doesn't impact the series all that much outside of light gags for most of its run, I do like how it interacts with his relationship with Pan and the way it unlocks the amaaaazing scene he gets with Kuririn and Kame-Sennin at the end.

What I mean is, goku grew up in the physical sense, which is not a debtae, hi growing as a character is

[Cipher]

What I mean is, goku grew up in the physical sense, which is not a debtae, hi growing as a character is

Right, but to present GT as turning its back on the physical aging which, I agree, is a rather subversive element of Toriyama's manga, you'd have to argue it stops the rest of its world similarly to Goku. It doesn't. Everyone in GT is old and frumpy, or trying to live comparatively normal lives. Goku's second youth contrasts its approach to literally every other character, and in the end that's its one big payoff in episode 64. In all it takes a rather sobering approach to the passage of time.

That's an element missing from Super, where I do take issue with the stagnant approach to characters both personality-wise and chronologically. Reverting the youngest-at-heart character to the body of a physical child as the rest of the world ages around him is far less a crime against the original story to me than stopping the progression of its characters wholesale, even if a payoff large enough to make it feel like a necessary choice isn't offered until the series' final twenty minutes. The few moments Super has taken to reflect on the passage of time in its world (ex. episode 43) have been some of my favorite moments in it, but they're few and far between.

[ABED]

The justification for de-aging Goku was to limit his power. Because he had become so strong at the end of Z, the writers were trying find a way to put a limit on his power.

[TheMikado]

The justification for de-aging Goku was to limit his power. Because he had become so strong at the end of Z, the writers were trying find a way to put a limit on his power.

And I don't blame them for that given how the power scaling is going in Super, we aren't even sure if Gohan or Trunks in base is as strong as Goku or not. Even after watching them spar.

[Cipher]

The justification for de-aging Goku was to limit his power. Because he had become so strong at the end of Z, the writers were trying find a way to put a limit on his power.

Which of course wasn't used in the series at all, outside of limiting his teleportation and Super Saiyan 3.

[TheMikado]

Ok.. do you have a clip of where he denies he's a saiyan? Just so you know here's a list where Goku acknowledges multiple times where he's a saiyan to Baby.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon ... 2_(Quotes)

Goku's Ascension

Baby: (in Vegeta's body) Heh. Was the gorilla too much power for you to control?
Goku: Yeah. This is just another costume change for the weakling Saiyan.

I'm not necessarily agreeing that this is a major character issue, but let's be careful not to bring in dub scripts, which I'm almost certain this is.

Unfortunately I can't find any subs for this, but the English version has him reference himself as a saiyan so many times that it's hard to imagine it's Japanese only. He literally says thing like this is just another costume for us saiyans and we saiyans increase in strength from fighting. Goku clearly identified as a biological saiyan and pretty sure stating he was an earthling was cultural as that's not a race. Sense we don't have any clips of the Japanese version to prove it either way we kinda have to work off of the dub.

[ABED]

The justification for de-aging Goku was to limit his power. Because he had become so strong at the end of Z, the writers were trying find a way to put a limit on his power.

Which of course wasn't used in the series at all, outside of limiting his teleportation and Super Saiyan 3.

Which are huge limitations.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Ok.. do you have a clip of where he denies he's a saiyan? Just so you know here's a list where Goku acknowledges multiple times where he's a saiyan to Baby.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon ... 2_(Quotes)

Goku's Ascension

Baby: (in Vegeta's body) Heh. Was the gorilla too much power for you to control?
Goku: Yeah. This is just another costume change for the weakling Saiyan.

I'm not necessarily agreeing that this is a major character issue, but let's be careful not to bring in dub scripts, which I'm almost certain this is.

Unfortunately I can't find any subs for this, but the English version has him reference himself as a saiyan so many times that it's hard to imagine it's Japanese only. He literally says thing like this is just another costume for us saiyans and we saiyans increase in strength from fighting. Goku clearly identified as a biological saiyan and pretty sure stating he was an earthling was cultural as that's not a race. Sense we don't have any clips of the Japanese version to prove it either way we kinda have to work off of the dub.

I just came off of a GT re-watch, and Goku did say something to the effect of "I'm not a Saiyan". I believe it's the episode when Goku fights Baby for the second time, after returning from the Kaioshin realm, sometime before becoming a Golden Ape. That's a pretty short time-span if I remember right, so someone should be able to find it.

[DBZAOTA482]

Aside from the godawful Black Star Dragon Ball arc, GT is done a much better job with Goku's character so far. Goku in Super is just annoying most of the time.

[Cipher]

I just came off of a GT re-watch, and Goku did say something to the effect of "I'm not a Saiyan". I believe it's the episode when Goku fights Baby for the second time, after returning from the Kaioshin realm, sometime before becoming a Golden Ape. That's a pretty short time-span if I remember right, so someone should be able to find it.

That would have to be their first fight, since they're not on the Tsufuru-jin planet (magenta sky). I'm guessing it's at the end of their first episode back on Earth, which has Baby showing up at the very end to confront Goku, if I recall correctly. The screenshot posted earlier doesn't look like Uchiyama artwork, and he's the one who handles the bulk of their battle.

He might even be responding to possessed Gohan and Goten there; I'm not sure.

[Doctor.]

Already said it's episode 28. Baby!Goten attacks Goku from behind, Goku says "Goten, I don't remember raising you to be the kind of coward who attacks people from behind", to which Baby!Gohan replies "Oh, you don't do cowardly things, you say? You barbaric monkey Saiyan!" And then, as I posted at the beginning of the thread, Goku replies with "I ain't a Saiyan, I'm an Earthling!" (and Baby!Gohan replies with "Don't be ridiculous!" for further context). Again, episode 28 if anyone wants to check.

The implication is clear. Baby is calling Goku out on his heritage being a bunch of cowardly savages, and Goku just brushes it off by refusing to associate with the Saiyans, proving Baby right that Saiyans are just as cowardly as he says. Meanwhile Freeza did the same thing in the Namek arc, and Goku gave a very blunt answer without running away from the subject.

[Totamo]

What I mean is, goku grew up in the physical sense, which is not a debtae, hi growing as a character is

Right, but to present GT as turning its back on the physical aging which, I agree, is a rather subversive element of Toriyama's manga, you'd have to argue it stops the rest of its world similarly to Goku. It doesn't. Everyone in GT is old and frumpy, or trying to live comparatively normal lives. Goku's second youth contrasts its approach to literally every other character, and in the end that's its one big payoff in episode 64. In all it takes a rather sobering approach to the passage of time.

That's an element missing from Super, where I do take issue with the stagnant approach to characters both personality-wise and chronologically. Reverting the youngest-at-heart character to the body of a physical child as the rest of the world ages around him is far less a crime against the original story to me than stopping the progression of its characters wholesale, even if a payoff large enough to make it feel like a necessary choice isn't offered until the series' final twenty minutes. The few moments Super has taken to reflect on the passage of time in its world (ex. episode 43) have been some of my favorite moments in it, but they're few and far between.

No, I disagree with that. Goku turning to a kid is not a problem in-universe. Goku turning to a kid is a problem OUT universe. Goku is more than just a character to some people and him aging was a big part of it.

It doesn't matter even if GT made a fantastic arc around him being a kid, doesn't matter even if if the characters reacted to it beautifully, it doesn't matter even if there was a unique contrast to a kid body but an adult mind.

All that matters is that goku was transformed into a child when he had previously aged and thats all that needs to be said. Whether its good or bad is an argument. He has been changed from he use to be.

you can debate things when it comes to goku's character in super. i can bring up several points where goku does things that he never did in z. But thats the whole thing it can be debated.

But can you do that with goku being turned into a kid? Thats the one thing that is definite about the development of his character. Even now its a big deal when a character ages like goku did. At most they go up maybe 2 years after 5 years but goku was constantly growing up. That was honestly one of my favorite things ball. That is one of the reasons Goku is my favorite character in all of anime, he actually grew up.

GT destroyed that and is one of the biggest reasons why i hate that series. Character development in dragon ball aside from a few characters has always been questioned, thats why even super has stagnant personalities which again is debatable, its not a new argument.

My point is this, one of these series did something to a beloved character that for a fact change him from what he used to be. The other made exaggerations from a personality that always existed.

Which one hurts the character more, the one that can't be argued or the one that can.

There is also the fact Goku ditches his family for 100 years and as someone who has argued goku cares about his family and does love them, I can't even justify that.

[Cipher]

No, I disagree with that. Goku turning to a kid is not a problem in-universe. Goku turning to a kid is a problem OUT universe. Goku is more than just a character to some people and him aging was a big part of it.

I'm not sure how you read my post, or if I've somehow been unclear, but I'm arguing all of this from an out-of-universe standpoint as well. I'm saying that despite Goku becoming a kid again, GT very much feels in line with the manga's approach to aging, if a bit more melancholy about it (as GT is wont to be a little more melancholy about things in general).

Which one hurts the character more, the one that can't be argued or the one that can.

I'd argue that rather than making a superficial distinction based on what happens to him physically in-universe, the one that feels less in line with his progression to the reader does the greater disservice to the character. And I'd argue similarly about the progression of the overall world.

There is also the fact Goku ditches his family for 100 years and as someone who has argued goku cares about his family and does love them, I can't even justify that.

Sidestepping the issue of what Son "I'm choosing to stay dead forever; bye, guys!" Goku would and would not abandon his family for, nothing about GT's ending implies his journey with Shen-Long is voluntary. That's a reading you're bringing to it on your own.

By the way, did anyone else pick up on that whole deathwish thing or find it as fitting as I do?

[Totamo]

No, I disagree with that. Goku turning to a kid is not a problem in-universe. Goku turning to a kid is a problem OUT universe. Goku is more than just a character to some people and him aging was a big part of it.

I'm not sure how you read my post, or if I've somehow been unclear, but I'm arguing all of this from an out-of-universe standpoint as well. I'm saying that despite Goku becoming a kid again, GT very much feels in line with the manga's approach to aging, if a bit more melancholy about it (as GT is wont to be a little more melancholy about things in general).

Which one hurts the character more, the one that can't be argued or the one that can.

I'd argue that rather than making a superficial distinction based on what happens to him physically in-universe, the one that feels less in line with his progression to the reader does the greater disservice to the character. And I'd argue similarly about the progression of the overall world.

Turning back into a child after he had became an adult, physically while toriyama aged him after almost every arc how are the similar?



Thats debatable, some people believe goku never developed as a character and has remained the same since dragon ball.


You are trying to justify goku turning to a kid wasn't a problem and that super keeping him stagnant is, but I'm trying to tell you that son goku, has always been seen as a stagnant character by many though many argue it but GT did something that did change him and whether its good or bad is irrelevant, because the fact is, it happened.


I can argue Goku not being a stagnant character in super. I can't change your view that he is but i believe he isn't. These are opinions

You can't argue Goku being turned into a kid. Views cant be change that Goku was because he was, you can't believe he wasn't. Thats a fact


If goku being stagnant to you is a problem for you, i can debate that with you and go through super and find moments where goku showed development from z and ball.

If goku being a kid is a problem for me, You can't debate that with me, you can try to make it seem irrelevant but that would be your opinion that its irrelevant.
'

Your problem is an even battle for me to argue because it's based off of an opinion that i can respectfully disagree with and show you why.

My problem is an uphill battle you to argue its based off of a fact that I dislike and you have to make me like it or not care.

[Totamo]

No, I disagree with that. Goku turning to a kid is not a problem in-universe. Goku turning to a kid is a problem OUT universe. Goku is more than just a character to some people and him aging was a big part of it.

I'm not sure how you read my post, or if I've somehow been unclear, but I'm arguing all of this from an out-of-universe standpoint as well. I'm saying that despite Goku becoming a kid again, GT very much feels in line with the manga's approach to aging, if a bit more melancholy about it (as GT is wont to be a little more melancholy about things in general).

Which one hurts the character more, the one that can't be argued or the one that can.

I'd argue that rather than making a superficial distinction based on what happens to him physically in-universe, the one that feels less in line with his progression to the reader does the greater disservice to the character. And I'd argue similarly about the progression of the overall world.

There is also the fact Goku ditches his family for 100 years and as someone who has argued goku cares about his family and does love them, I can't even justify that.

Sidestepping the issue of what Son "I'm choosing to stay dead forever; bye, guys!" Goku would and would not abandon his family for, nothing about GT's ending implies his journey with Shen-Long is voluntary. That's a reading you're bringing to it on your own.

By the way, did anyone else pick up on that whole deathwish thing or find it as fitting as I do?

Nothing implies that its voluntary but there is no clear reason why he leaves or that it is.


Thats my issue with it. I have no idea what the hell happened!

[Cipher]

Turning back into a child after he had became an adult, physically while toriyama aged him after almost every arc how are the similar?

I meant GT's approach to aging wholesale, outside of Goku's alone, is closer to the manga's.

If goku being a kid is a problem for me, You can't debate that with me, you can try to make it seem irrelevant but that would be your opinion that its irrelevant.

No, but I could offer the perspective that it's not the singularly important issue you hold it to be. That is the arguable, interpretive part, and I have to imagine more what this thread was created to discuss. "Goku's physical kidness or adultness (GT & Super)" would be a pretty short read.

If you think Goku's physical age is the most important element in portraying his character or signaling his growth, that's fine, but that's the belief you're offering up for discussion.