The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[TheUltimateNinja]

Maybe in your dreams it would. And the line is clearly referring to it's destructive power, not it's potency, unless the translation isn't coming through quite right.

Goten in base can kill all forms of Namek Goku (with the exception of Super Saiyan) with his finger.

No he wouldn't. He was having trouble with a first form Frieza level opponent, didn't know how to fly yet, didn't know how to control hi ki attacks properly, and post Buu saga base Goku was still weaker than final form Frieza, confirmed by Beerus.

Lets say we took the statement that base Goten was about base Gohan level at face value. He would still lose to kaioken Goku.

He was able to give Gohan a hard time and Trunks was able to land a hit on Vegeta while his guard was up, these feats place them incredibly high in terms of power, even Piccolo couldn't hope to lay a finger on Vegeta.

Also, Namek Goku's max is only 60,000,000, Goten would be around 75,000,000.

[dragon boss z]

He was able to give Gohan a hard time and Trunks was able to land a hit on Vegeta while his guard was up, these feats place them incredibly high in terms of power, even Piccolo couldn't hope to lay a finger on Vegeta.

Also, Namek Goku's max is only 60,000,000, Goten would be around 75,000,000.

Gohan was rusty and Trunks did no damage to Vegeta. Goten's power level of 75,000,000 is just something you made up. Goten and Trunks have no known power leve, but considering base Trunks could barely move in 150x gravity and was equal with a suppressed Freeza level opponent in base, that buts them at around Namek saga tier.

[dragon boss z]

All fighters from the left are from current DBS episode.

Piccolo vs Cell [Super Perfect form].
Gohan [No Super Saiyan or Ultimate forms] vs Mister Boo.
Roshi [Full power form] vs Goku [BoZ].
Kuririn vs Freeza [1st form].

Piccolo
Buu
Roshi
If this is Namek Freeza,then Kuririn.

There is really nothing indicating that Krillin even came close to first form Frieza. Same thing goes with Piccolo surpassing Cell. But I think Piccolo should be closer to Cell than Krillin is to first form Frieza.

[TheUltimateNinja]

He was able to give Gohan a hard time and Trunks was able to land a hit on Vegeta while his guard was up, these feats place them incredibly high in terms of power, even Piccolo couldn't hope to lay a finger on Vegeta.

Also, Namek Goku's max is only 60,000,000, Goten would be around 75,000,000.

Gohan was rusty and Trunks did no damage to Vegeta. Goten's power level of 75,000,000 is just something you made up. Goten and Trunks have no known power leve, but considering base Trunks could barely move in 150x gravity and was equal with a suppressed Freeza level opponent in base, that buts them at around Namek saga tier.

He made Vegeta flinch and hit back out of reflex. Also, Vegeta transformed into a Super Saiyan to train in 150x gravity so does that mean he's Namek Arc tier as well?

And Trunks had to heavily suppress his blast to prevent it from killing 18, would she die to a blast from a Namek Arc level opponent?

Also, when Goku tells them to power up to max they say "Let's freak him out." And completely shock Piccolo, showing that they're stronger than him as Super Saiyans.

[ZombieVito]

Maybe in your dreams it would. And the line is clearly referring to it's destructive power, not it's potency, unless the translation isn't coming through quite right.

Goten in base can kill all forms of Namek Goku (with the exception of Super Saiyan) with his finger.

No he wouldn't. He was having trouble with a first form Frieza level opponent, didn't know how to fly yet, didn't know how to control hi ki attacks properly, and post Buu saga base Goku was still weaker than final form Frieza, confirmed by Beerus.

Lets say we took the statement that base Goten was about base Gohan level at face value. He would still lose to kaioken Goku.

I completely forgot about Kaioken.

Kaioken x20 Goku will beat him. Below that, Goku is screwed.

[dragonball0900]

Gohan was rusty and Trunks did no damage to Vegeta. Goten's power level of 75,000,000 is just something you made up. Goten and Trunks have no known power leve, but considering base Trunks could barely move in 150x gravity and was equal with a suppressed Freeza level opponent in base, that buts them at around Namek saga tier.

Just to let you know that Goten and Trunks are actually a lot more superior to Android 18. Android 18 was scared of a suppressed ki blast from SSJ Trunks, the attack was suppressed and Android 18 was still scared. That implies that there was a huge gap between her and the kids.

Also, Goten was able to rivalize Gohan, and Trunks was able to lay a punch to Vegeta. These are feats that not even Android 16 or Imperfect Cell would do (remember how Android 16 lay a punch to Semi Perfect Cell and did nothing?). The kids should be above Android 16 too. Possibly even above Semi Perfect Cell. I'm still not convinced that they are above Piccolo though since that seems too much, but they are still quite strong, and not as weak as many people think.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Gohan was rusty and Trunks did no damage to Vegeta. Goten's power level of 75,000,000 is just something you made up. Goten and Trunks have no known power leve, but considering base Trunks could barely move in 150x gravity and was equal with a suppressed Freeza level opponent in base, that buts them at around Namek saga tier.

Just to let you know that Goten and Trunks are actually a lot more superior to Android 18. Android 18 was scared of a suppressed ki blast from SSJ Trunks, the attack was suppressed and Android 18 was still scared. That implies that there was a huge gap between her and the kids.

Also, Goten was able to rivalize Gohan, and Trunks was able to lay a punch to Vegeta. These are feats that not even Android 16 or Imperfect Cell would do (remember how Android 16 lay a punch to Semi Perfect Cell and did nothing?). The kids should be above Android 16 too. Possibly even above Semi Perfect Cell. I'm still not convinced that they are above Piccolo though since that seems too much, but they are still quite strong, and not as weak as many people think.

Piccolo could never touch SSJ Vegeta, and even if he did it would have absolutely no effect unlike Trunks' punch which made Vegeta flinch.

Also, the face he makes when he sees Goten and Trunks power up is the same face he has when FPSSJ Goku powers up in the Cell Arc, he even gets pushed back slightly and grunts unlike Goku who isn't impressed at all, showing that Goku > Goten/Trunks > Piccolo.

Also, Piccolo says they're the last hope for Earth even before fusion is mentioned.

[dragon boss z]

He made Vegeta flinch and hit back out of reflex. Also, Vegeta transformed into a Super Saiyan to train in 150x gravity so does that mean he's Namek Arc tier as well?

And Trunks had to heavily suppress his blast to prevent it from killing 18, would she die to a blast from a Namek Arc level opponent?

Also, when Goku tells them to power up to max they say "Let's freak him out." And completely shock Piccolo, showing that they're stronger than him as Super Saiyans.

Vegeta never showed to struggle with 150x gravity though. Even in base he wouldn't have trouble. He is shown training in 150x gravity in base in Super and in the Buu saga Goku was training with 2 tons on each limb, which is more than 150x gravity for him. Plus there is no proof 18 could be killed by their ki blast.
And Goku wasn't even shocked at the kids power. Only Piccolo was, and for all we know it may because they are so young. Even if you could bench 300 pounds, if an 8 year old benches 250 pounds it would freak you out. That doesn't mean they lift more than you. And when Gotenks defused inside of Buu, Piccolo's appearance took over, which could imply Piccolo is stronger than the kids since the strongest person's appearance is shown.

I completely forgot about Kaioken.

Kaioken x20 Goku will beat him. Below that, Goku is screwed.

Maybe. I still doubt it though.

Just to let you know that Goten and Trunks are actually a lot more superior to Android 18. Android 18 was scared of a suppressed ki blast from SSJ Trunks, the attack was suppressed and Android 18 was still scared. That implies that there was a huge gap between her and the kids.

Also, Goten was able to rivalize Gohan, and Trunks was able to lay a punch to Vegeta. These are feats that not even Android 16 or Imperfect Cell would do (remember how Android 16 lay a punch to Semi Perfect Cell and did nothing?). The kids should be above Android 16 too. Possibly even above Semi Perfect Cell. I'm still not convinced that they are above Piccolo though since that seems too much, but they are still quite strong, and not as weak as many people think.

Krillin was scared of the destruction caused by Recoome's eraser gun and amazed by Frieza being able to slice Namek. Both of those feats are below moon level, yet Krillin is scared of them. Does this mean that Krillin is less than moon level? If you say no, then your argument for 18 being scared of their attack doesn't hold. She never says it could killer her either.

At best they are around post ROSAT cell saga saiyans

[dragonball0900]

Krillin was scared of the destruction caused by Recoome's eraser gun and amazed by Frieza being able to slice Namek. Both of those feats are below moon level, yet Krillin is scared of them. Does this mean that Krillin is less than moon level? If you say no, then your argument for 18 being scared of their attack doesn't hold. She never says it could killer her either.

At best they are around post ROSAT cell saga saiyans

The two examples you mentioned wouldn't matter since Krillin was afraid of their strenght too. Both Recoome and Frieza were much stronger than him at the time. If it was someone weaker than him, then it wouldn't be impressive to him.
With Android 18, however, the ki blast from Trunks was stated to be very suppressed. If it wasn't suppressed, then I would agree that the kids are just at her level or below. However, it was indeed supressed, and Trunks said the ki blast was suppressed enough for not to kill her, and given the feats they have against Gohan and Vegeta, then they are far above Androids - early Cell saga tier.

[dragon boss z]

Krillin was scared of the destruction caused by Recoome's eraser gun and amazed by Frieza being able to slice Namek. Both of those feats are below moon level, yet Krillin is scared of them. Does this mean that Krillin is less than moon level? If you say no, then your argument for 18 being scared of their attack doesn't hold. She never says it could killer her either.

At best they are around post ROSAT cell saga saiyans

The two examples you mentioned wouldn't matter since Krillin was afraid of their strenght too. Both Recoome and Frieza were much stronger than him at the time. If it was someone weaker than him, then it wouldn't be impressive to him.
With Android 18, however, the ki blast from Trunks was stated to be very suppressed. If it wasn't suppressed, then I would agree that the kids are just at her level or below. However, it was indeed supressed, and Trunks said the ki blast was suppressed enough for not to kill her, and given the feats they have against Gohan and Vegeta, then they are far above Androids - early Cell saga tier.

Krillin specifically said he was terrified the damage the attack caused. Not the power of the attack or the person who used it.
And Trunks never said he could kill 18, he just suppressed his attack so he knew it wouldn't. Even a common ray gun took SSB Goku out, lol.

[dragonball0900]

Krillin was scared of the destruction caused by Recoome's eraser gun and amazed by Frieza being able to slice Namek. Both of those feats are below moon level, yet Krillin is scared of them. Does this mean that Krillin is less than moon level? If you say no, then your argument for 18 being scared of their attack doesn't hold. She never says it could killer her either.

At best they are around post ROSAT cell saga saiyans

The two examples you mentioned wouldn't matter since Krillin was afraid of their strenght too. Both Recoome and Frieza were much stronger than him at the time. If it was someone weaker than him, then it wouldn't be impressive to him.
With Android 18, however, the ki blast from Trunks was stated to be very suppressed. If it wasn't suppressed, then I would agree that the kids are just at her level or below. However, it was indeed supressed, and Trunks said the ki blast was suppressed enough for not to kill her, and given the feats they have against Gohan and Vegeta, then they are far above Androids - early Cell saga tier.

Krillin specifically said he was terrified the damage the attack caused. Not the power of the attack or the person who used it.
And Trunks never said he could kill 18, he just suppressed his attack so he knew it wouldn't. Even a common ray gun took SSB Goku out, lol.

Then why woudl Krillin be just terrified of the damage the attacks cause if he already knew that fighters with a strenght like that would do that? He would also know that he himself would be able to do that. Obviously Krillin was not only scared of the damage the attacks were causing, but it's more about the destructive power it causes.

The kids were still able to cause a bit of damage or being rivals to the likes of Gohan and Vegeta. Feats that Android 18 wouldn't be able to do at all, not even Android 16 or Imperfect Cell. The Daizenshuu also says Goten's power was able to at least rivalize against Gohan. Android 18 would never be able to rivalize against Buu saga Gohan, who is superior to Cell Games Vegeta, who is superior to ASSJ Vegeta, who is superior to Semi Perfect Cell, who is superior to Imperfect Cell and Android 16, who are superior to Android 18. There are many gaps in there.

We shouldn't underestimate the kids just because they are kids, Trunks was completely suppressed when doing the attack. The fact that he suppressed his attack so knew he wouldn't kill her means that it was obvious he would kill her if it was at full power. Android 18 was amazed at the speed of their attack, and she already knew they were SSJ's since she recently discovered their true identity, she obviously would've expected something, but she was shocked at the speed and strenght of a heavily suppressed attack from SSJ Trunks. It's clear that the kids were completely above Android 18.

[dragon boss z]

The two examples you mentioned wouldn't matter since Krillin was afraid of their strenght too. Both Recoome and Frieza were much stronger than him at the time. If it was someone weaker than him, then it wouldn't be impressive to him.
With Android 18, however, the ki blast from Trunks was stated to be very suppressed. If it wasn't suppressed, then I would agree that the kids are just at her level or below. However, it was indeed supressed, and Trunks said the ki blast was suppressed enough for not to kill her, and given the feats they have against Gohan and Vegeta, then they are far above Androids - early Cell saga tier.

Krillin specifically said he was terrified the damage the attack caused. Not the power of the attack or the person who used it.
And Trunks never said he could kill 18, he just suppressed his attack so he knew it wouldn't. Even a common ray gun took SSB Goku out, lol.

Then why woudl Krillin be just terrified of the damage the attacks cause if he already knew that fighters with a strenght like that would do that? He would also know that he himself would be able to do that. Obviously Krillin was not only scared of the damage the attacks were causing, but it's more about the destructive power it causes.

The kids were still able to cause a bit of damage or being rivals to the likes of Gohan and Vegeta. Feats that Android 18 wouldn't be able to do at all, not even Android 16 or Imperfect Cell. The Daizenshuu also says Goten's power was able to at least rivalize against Gohan. Android 18 would never be able to rivalize against Buu saga Gohan, who is superior to Cell Games Vegeta, who is superior to ASSJ Vegeta, who is superior to Semi Perfect Cell, who is superior to Imperfect Cell and Android 16, who are superior to Android 18. There are many gaps in there.

We shouldn't underestimate the kids just because they are kids, Trunks was completely suppressed when doing the attack. The fact that he suppressed his attack so knew he wouldn't kill her means that it was obvious he would kill her if it was at full power. Android 18 was amazed at the speed of their attack, and she already knew they were SSJ's since she recently discovered their true identity, she obviously would've expected something, but she was shocked at the speed and strenght of a heavily suppressed attack from SSJ Trunks. It's clear that the kids were completely above Android 18.

Krillin specifically was afraid of the damage, which would imply he can't replicate the feat.


18 was impressed by this


Frieza can do this





18 would be just as surprised if any of these attacks were shot out.
And there is no inication they are completely above her. She never says they are above her. They might be above her, but that ki blast isn't proof.

[Bullza]

Cell Games Super Saiyan Goku vs Post Rosat (or just current) Super Saiyan Goten

Again with actual reasoning. If he's not supposed to be THAT much weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan during the Majin Buu saga then it could be possible. Though it depends how much weaker Gohan got after the Cell Games.

[Ki Breaker]

Cell Games Super Saiyan Goku vs Post Rosat (or just current) Super Saiyan Goten

Again with actual reasoning. If he's not supposed to be THAT much weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan during the Majin Buu saga then it could be possible. Though it depends how much weaker Gohan got after the Cell Games.

Goku wins this, even if goten has a slight edge in power, goku is a way better fighter than the green leaf

[Ki Breaker]

17 current ( you can increase his strength somewhat judging from the op ) vs Krillin and 18 team up

[DBZAOTA482]

That definitely seemed like goku effortlessly dodging all her attacks and wasn't pushing him back, if some one attacks you which can be evaded by being in air and not ground, you would do just that.. It isn't you getting pushed back but evading the attack right..

He was talking pretty normally with her, that's kind of messing around in what we are thinking of a serious fight where he can make a mistake

The point is, we still can't gauge her strength correctly by this example..

Not really.... if that were the case Goku would be fumbling about and barely even notices her attacks. He also wouldn't be bothered to block, parry, or evade, and she wouldn't be able to match his casual jumping height and keep on fighting while in the air... something of which Nam struggled to do back in the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai. Either way, I don't see Starfire pulling any of that off at all.

Chi-Chi almost surprised Goku with some of her attacks plus he was sweating like crazy and his speech bubbles had exclamations points pretty much for the entire fight so he definitely wasn't talking normally. She was able to hold a conversation with him as well.

Her strength within the fight is certainly able to be gauged... you're probably not understanding my points.

I think the main issue here is our perception of the fight

No (and your perception is flawed btw).. you're just missing my points.

[Ki Breaker]

No (and your perception is flawed btw).. you're just missing my points.

Yeahhhhh..
No
It's just opinion then. You're not going to get me to change my opinion. Dismissing others' opinions or preferences while saying yours are better won't get them to agree with you

[dragonball0900]

Krillin specifically was afraid of the damage, which would imply he can't replicate the feat.

18 was impressed by this

Frieza can do this

18 would be just as surprised if any of these attacks were shot out.
And there is no inication they are completely above her. She never says they are above her. They might be above her, but that ki blast isn't proof.

Your examples don't really accomplish anything. There's a big differencie between the Android 18 example, and the ones that you are mentioning. In your examples, they were scared about the damage, as you said, but Android 18 was clearly scared about the power, it's downright stated in the scan you posted, she said the kids have destructive power, and even said that they were not playing around, when in fact the kids were indeed playing since the blast was suppressed. It's like in the Cell Games when Gohan thought Goku was toying with Cell during their battle when actually Goku was going all out, indicating Gohan was stronger than Goku.
Again, the ki blast was very suppressed, and Android 18 was really surprised to see how the kids were so ridiculously strong. There is a lot of proof that they were above her by just seeing that part.

Also, as I said before, the kids were able to rivalize the likes of Gohan and Vegeta, sure they are below them, but they still managed feats that not even Android 16 or Imperfect Cell would do, such as being able to rivalize Gohan who is way way stronger than Android 18.

[DBZAOTA482]

No (and your perception is flawed btw).. you're just missing my points.

Yeahhhhh..
No
It's just opinion then. You're not going to get me to change my opinion. Dismissing others' opinions or preferences while saying yours are better won't get them to agree with you

Obviously, it is an opinion but that doesn't mean I can't disagree with it.

[TheUltimateNinja]

No (and your perception is flawed btw).. you're just missing my points.

Yeahhhhh..
No
It's just opinion then. You're not going to get me to change my opinion. Dismissing others' opinions or preferences while saying yours are better won't get them to agree with you

Obviously, it is an opinion but that doesn't mean I can't disagree with it.

I can see why he'd feel that way, I myself have a hard time believing Chichi surpassed Old Piccolo on her own with only Gyumao's training while Goku needed to go through far more hardship to accomplish this.