The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[DBZAOTA482]

Tenshinhan and Weighted Goku (23rd Budokai) vs Popo

Popo probably still wins.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Tenshinhan and Weighted Goku (23rd Budokai) vs Popo

Popo probably still wins.

Alright, what if Roshi, Yamcha, Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Weighted Goku and Weighted Piccolo (Initial) ganged up on Popo?

(Weighted Piccolo is at the level he used against Kuririn, not the level he used against Shen)

[Shlugo]

Begs the question. How much stronger was FP Perfect Cell compared to the likes of MSSJ Goku and Gohan? He was able to fight them while suppressed the whole time(albeit was forced to increase his speed against the latter)but still seemed to put in a lot of effort at times and was genuinely outmaneuvered by Goku's IT KK, which resulted in him losing a lot of Ki(would have died without regen). Could the Z-senshu have defeated him if they had all ganged up on him?

I think Gohan was actually stronger than Cell at that point. He was just too paralyzed by fear to fight properly.


If FP Perfect Cell was a 100, I would put Goku at 70 and Gohan at 120.

Tenshinhan and Weighted Goku (23rd Budokai) vs Popo

At that point Goku was stronger than Popo.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Tenshinhan and Weighted Goku (23rd Budokai) vs Popo

At that point Goku was stronger than Popo.

I'm talking about Weighted Goku, Tenshinhan said his speed hadn't improved from 3 years earlier.

[pacz360]

Zeno vs. Franklin Richards?

Both are little kids with powerful reality warping powers. Who wins?

Franklin due to being much higher in The multiversal scale in DC and hax

[dragon boss z]

Considering stones aren't naturally designed like that especially in the middle of barren desert and judoing by the structure, they're probably either just rock formations or tree columns.

stone and rock are pretty much the same thing. And they clearly weren't trees. You can see by how they crumble. They are rock/stone pillars. And the dragon ball world is weird. It has a lot of weird rock formations.

I never said that was the only bit of training she had. It only took Goku and Krillin 7 months to complete the training (they had a bit of a headstart due to already having the basics down), and Chi-Chi likely went through the same in addition to her own training for the remaining years.

Probably. But that training only got them to around Tao level. Goku needed Korin training to go above Tao level, and the superdevine water to go above King Piccolo. So I would put her at 22nd Krillin at max.

No you have to prove your claim first so I can disprove it, unless it's something really fucking obvious. Not to mention it's a stupid argument to make in the first place because it's like arguing Videl after learning to control her ki is stronger than Goten before training with Govan because she can fly while he can't and that's obviously not true.

It's still a fallacy. You need to prove they can before saying they can. You can't just say they can shoot ki blasts because you want them to. Prove they can. That is how debating works.

[/quote]
Anyways, for my proof... Goten had demonstrated having ki control and knows what it is even before training with Gohan. Keep in mind Chi-Chi was said to be his only teacher at the time.
[/quote]

Goten also learned how to go ssj. Does that mean Chi-chi can do that to? Also he sparred with Trunks, Trunks could of taught him. Or he could of just figured it out.

That proves nothing except Nam having a harder time keeping up with Goku in the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai than Chi-Chi did with a far stronger Goku. My point is Chi-Chi can very easily jumped higher if she wanted to but she chose only jumped high enough to match Goku's casual jumping height which fighters far weaker than their opponents couldn't even hope of doing. You can only jump as fast as you are and can jump high depending on your strength.

But you said 21st Roshi probably couldn't even match Goku's casual jump... Which he obviously could since Nam easily jumped higher than that. I'm not saying that's Chi chi's limit either. She is at least as strong as Nam. I was just pointing out that Chi chi's feat isn't impressive for someone like Roshi.

I doubt Toriyama would go out of his way to depict her as a strong fighter and give her such praising statements from even Goku and co. if she were meant to be fodder. Toriyama had her pass through the prelims of the hardest year of the Tenkaichi Budokai with ease while Yajirobe and Chiaotzu didn't for a reason...

Because Yajirobe fought Kami and Chiaotzu fought Tao? Chi chi didn't beat anyone of note to get in the tournament. That just puts her above all of the fodder. And she was strong, no doubt about that. I'm saying she was fodder compared to the other 23rd fighters. The only one she might not be one shotted by was Tao.

As far as we know all of the finalists aside from Goku, Shen, and Tao didn't fight anyone of note in the prelims. You're only proving your bias with this part and speaking of bias...

How does this have anything to do with this? Goku, Shen, and Tao all have feats... Goku beat King Piccolo, we already knew he was strong. Kami one shot the Goku that beat King Piccolo, we knew he was strong from that. And Tao easily beat Chiatzu, and he also has earlier impressive feats. Though Tao was also fodder in the 23rd, so not sure why you bring him up either.

Again, a blast that only destroy a stadium would be like tennis to her and this page also proves the kids are stronger because Trunks held back a great deal with the blast yet it was enough to spook her.

Also, it's not like Trunks would just carelessly launch ki blasts at her. He's shown to have great control over his ki.

You said Trunks never said he was about to spam ki blasts, but that scan clearly has Trunks saying he is about to bombard her. that's why I showed the scan.

Except you did say it's a fact...

When did I say it was a fact Tao was stronger? I said it was a fact he had better feats. Those are two completely different things.

Kinda does considering Goku had to at least put in some effort instead of treating the fight like child's play like he did with Akkuman and that's more than Tao could've done as he already got stmoped a far weaker Goku when he got serious.

What makes you think he put more effort into beating Chappa than Akkuman? Goku said Chappa would of died if he was serious.
And he also said this "I didn't put nearly everything I got into it"


While Goku actually said he was getting serious against Akkuman.



So if you go by the actual statements in the manga, it is the opposite of what you said. Goku was more serious against Akkuman than Chappa. And Goku was even more serious with Tao than Akkuman.

Except in the page before Jackie Chun was shown shocked after Goku kicked Chappa and it's elementary actions speak louder than words. You're also ignoring the fact Chun feared for his chances after Goku defeated Chappa with basically no effort.

His face of shock was from the mouth blast. The shocked face was from right after the mouth blast, and his first words were about the mouth blast. And he only said this could be bad for him after Goku said that he wasn't even serious and Chappa would of died if he was. And even then he said it "might" be bad for him. Which probably means Chappa<<<Goku holding back<<<Roshi<=>Goku not holding back

Chun's disbelief at Goku can imply something other than power... it likely could be based on reputation to empathize how great Goku is in general considering Tsuru didn't even believe Goku killed Tao till he beat Krillin with the super fast karate chops despite clearly being far stronger. It wouldn't make sense for Chun to hold Tao's power with such high regard at that point when he can just wipe his ass with Tao

I think you are overestimating how storng Goku is compared to Tao. Goku was definitely quite a bit above him when they fought, but Tao still hurt Goku in their fight and with a sword he was actually above unarmed Goku. And I don't think 23rd Goku is even twice as strong as when he beat Tao.

Tao<Goku(post Korin)<Tao (sword)<Goku (powerpole)<23rd Goku

Even while looking completey serious Goku was hurt a bit by Tao's dodon ray.




Tao even made Goku bleed.



And Tao also took multiple serious hits from Goku and survived.

[dragonball0900]

Tenshinhan and Weighted Goku (23rd Budokai) vs Popo

Given how Popo was way too strong for Post Water Goku, I don't know if he would stand a chance. Tien, however, might be able to do better against Popo since he was also too fast for Weighted Goku. However, I don't think he's still on Popo's level yet, not even in BOZ since I think by that time everyone (except for obviously Kami, Piccolo and Goku) were still weaker than Popo.
I'd say Popo still wins even if they are combined.

Alright, what if Roshi, Yamcha, Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Weighted Goku and Weighted Piccolo (Initial) ganged up on Popo?

(Weighted Piccolo is at the level he used against Kuririn, not the level he used against Shen)

Considering Popo was on a different level, but these fighters have many techcniques that would make Popo be on trouble, I'd think that they might defeat Popo only if they use tactics and plans to do it. Popo is not Piccolo (who is even more stronger and if they all gang up on him it wouldn't make any difference), so Popo might be able to be defeated.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Alright, what if Roshi, Yamcha, Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Weighted Goku and Weighted Piccolo (Initial) ganged up on Popo?

(Weighted Piccolo is at the level he used against Kuririn, not the level he used against Shen)

Considering Popo was on a different level, but these fighters have many techcniques that would make Popo be on trouble, I'd think that they might defeat Popo only if they use tactics and plans to do it. Popo is not Piccolo (who is even more stronger and if they all gang up on him it wouldn't make any difference), so Popo might be able to be defeated.

How about this:
Yamcha (22nd Budokai) vs Post-Karin Goku

Kuririn, Yamcha & Roshi (22nd Budokai) vs Goku (Full match level)

[Gog]

Super Saiyan 2 Goku Namek saga V Android 18

[TheUltimateNinja]

Super Saiyan 2 Goku Namek saga V Android 18

18 should take it without too much difficulty, she has infinite stamina and also a power advantage.

[dragonball0900]

How about this:
Yamcha (22nd Budokai) vs Post-Karin Goku

Kuririn, Yamcha & Roshi (22nd Budokai) vs Goku (Full match level)

- I have Yamcha winning. Since Yamcha was equal to Krillin and that Krillin was able to fight a much better and improved Goku. There's also Chappa who is probably around the strenght of Post Karin Goku, judging by Roshi's reactions during Goku's match with Chappa. And we know that Krillin and Yamcha were stronger than Chappa, obviously. Yamcha was also able to fight Tien so well.

- Considering that Krillin and Roshi were not able to see Goku's speed going at full match level, then they might have problems defeating this Goku, but if they gang up together, they might have a good chance of winning slightly. Specially with the help of Roshi.

Super Saiyan 2 Goku Namek saga V Android 18

Android 18 takes this. I have the Kamiccolo a X2 boost. Piccolo in the Android Arc was already probably stronger than SSJ Future Trunks from the Mecha Frieza Arc, as well as Yadrat Goku, who are stronger than Namek Goku. Namek Goku with SSJ2 would be a X2 boost, and would still not be enough to reach Android 18.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Super Saiyan 2 Goku Namek saga V Android 18

Android 18 takes this. I have the Kamiccolo a X2 boost. Piccolo in the Android Arc was already probably stronger than SSJ Future Trunks from the Mecha Frieza Arc, as well as Yadrat Goku, who are stronger than Namek Goku. Namek Goku with SSJ2 would be a X2 boost, and would still not be enough to reach Android 18.

How would you say Yardrat Goku, Trunks & Piccolo compare to each other? This is my scale:
SSJ Trunks: 180 million
SSJ Goku: 195 million
Piccolo: 200 million

Also,

Androids Arc Piccolo vs SSJ Trunks (Mecha Freeza Arc), Mecha Freeza, SSJ Namek Goku, 100% Namek Freeza and King Cold

[DBZAOTA482]

It's still a fallacy. You need to prove they can before saying they can. You can't just say they can shoot ki blasts because you want them to. Prove they can. That is how debating works.

At any right, I don't have to prove anything because it was stupid claim to make in the first place.

Goten also learned how to go ssj. Does that mean Chi-chi can do that to? Also he sparred with Trunks, Trunks could of taught him. Or he could of just figured it out.

It's not the point I was getting across. It's the fact he knows what ki is and can control it while Chi-Chi is stated to be his only primary teacher. Trunks didn't teach Goten shit... otherwise, he would've already known bukujutsu.

But you said 21st Roshi probably couldn't even match Goku's casual jump... Which he obviously could since Nam easily jumped higher than that. I'm not saying that's Chi chi's limit either. She is at least as strong as Nam. I was just pointing out that Chi chi's feat isn't impressive for someone like Roshi.

Still missing the point. I said Roshi couldn't match Initial Weighted Goku's casual jumping height as in... he can't jump nearly as fast as he could in order to keep up. The height itself isn't the thing, you can't compare feats like that.

Because Yajirobe fought Kami and Chiaotzu fought Tao? Chi chi didn't beat anyone of note to get in the tournament. That just puts her above all of the fodder. And she was strong, no doubt about that. I'm saying she was fodder compared to the other 23rd fighters. The only one she might not be one shotted by was Tao.

Doesn't really matter if Yajirobe fought Shen or Chiaotzu fought Tao as they were taken down with practically no effort whatsoever and nobody really cared that they were defeated. When you said she was fodder I thought you were implying her strength was pretty much a joke in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, like how the original series treated Freeza after the Freeza Saga, when the story showed otherwise.

I also don't think Krillin or Yamcha can one-shot her either. They're definitely a lot stronger but she was good enough for them to acknowledge her. Tao I don't think she would lose that badly at all... I still think he's stronger (mostly because he was made out to be a bigger deal) but Tien took care of him with even greater ease than Goku did Chi-Chi.

How does this have anything to do with this? Goku, Shen, and Tao all have feats... Goku beat King Piccolo, we already knew he was strong. Kami one shot the Goku that beat King Piccolo, we knew he was strong from that. And Tao easily beat Chiatzu, and he also has earlier impressive feats. Though Tao was also fodder in the 23rd, so not sure why you bring him up either.

A lot... because you were using it to downplay her by saying "oh she only got in because she got lucky" even though it's clearly not the case and most of the finalists didn't fight anyone of note in those prelims. Also disagree with Tao being fodder... Krillin and Yamcha were afraid of fighting Tien after seeing how easily he defeated him.

You said Trunks never said he was about to spam ki blasts, but that scan clearly has Trunks saying he is about to bombard her. that's why I showed the scan.

Either way, a blast that can only destroy the stadium would nothing for her to deal with.

When did I say it was a fact Tao was stronger? I said it was a fact he had better feats. Those are two completely different things.

Maybe because they are facts? Is it bias to claim that Frieza is stronger than the farmer with a shot gun? No it's a fact.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=17060&start=27940#p1266459

What makes you think he put more effort into beating Chappa than Akkuman? Goku said Chappa would of died if he was serious.
And he also said this "I didn't put nearly everything I got into it"

Goku said Chappa would die if he used all of his strength and that's beyond just getting serious. Goku toyed King Chappa in order to make him angry and predictable like he did Nappa or Butta and Jheese, while he treated the fight with Akkuman like a game and only fought somewhat seriously when he pulled out that spear.

His face of shock was from the mouth blast. The shocked face was from right after the mouth blast, and his first words were about the mouth blast. And he only said this could be bad for him after Goku said that he wasn't even serious and Chappa would of died if he was. And even then he said it "might" be bad for him. Which probably means Chappa<<<Goku holding back<<<Roshi<=>Goku not holding back

Chun was only shown shocked after Goku defeated Chappa...

Nowhere was he shown shocked during the mouth blast...

Chun may not have commented on how easily Goku won (it'd probably be redundant considering Yamcha already did and he's far more familiar with the reputation) but everything else points to him not expecting Goku to get nearly this strong.

Chun's disbelief at Goku can imply something other than power... it likely could be based on reputation to empathize how great Goku is in general considering Tsuru didn't even believe Goku killed Tao till he beat Krillin with the super fast karate chops despite clearly being far stronger. It wouldn't make sense for Chun to hold Tao's power with such high regard at that point when he can just wipe his ass with Tao

I think you are overestimating how storng Goku is compared to Tao. Goku was definitely quite a bit above him when they fought, but Tao still hurt Goku in their fight and with a sword he was actually above unarmed Goku. And I don't think 23rd Goku is even twice as strong as when he beat Tao.

Tao<Goku(post Korin)<Tao (sword)<Goku (powerpole)<23rd Goku

Even while looking completey serious Goku was hurt a bit by Tao's dodon ray.




Tao even made Goku bleed.



And Tao also took multiple serious hits from Goku and survived.[/quote]
I exaggerated to make a point that Goku had already surpassed Tao 3 years prior and the gang had already saw that same Goku fight seriously on Baba's Palace. They also knew Goku would get even stronger for the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai but still thought Chappa would be a challenge and were shocked that he wasn't. The only way for that to make sense is if Chappa was even stronger than the Goku who beat Tao.

You may not like the idea of Chappa being stronger but that's just how the story is.

...and really?! 23rd Goku is worlds above 22nd Goku who's worlds above the gang's estimation of his strength would be which stronger than when he beat Tao. Saying 23rd Goku is only 2x stronger than the Goku who beat Tao would imply Tao is comparable to a being who took a Kamehameha from a far stronger Goku like it was nothing with less than half his power. That's an incredibly stupid claim.

[TheUltimateNinja]

SSJ3 Namek Goku vs Grade 2 Vegeta (Cell Arc)

[dragonball0900]

Super Saiyan 2 Goku Namek saga V Android 18

Android 18 takes this. I have the Kamiccolo a X2 boost. Piccolo in the Android Arc was already probably stronger than SSJ Future Trunks from the Mecha Frieza Arc, as well as Yadrat Goku, who are stronger than Namek Goku. Namek Goku with SSJ2 would be a X2 boost, and would still not be enough to reach Android 18.

How would you say Yardrat Goku, Trunks & Piccolo compare to each other? This is my scale:
SSJ Trunks: 180 million
SSJ Goku: 195 million
Piccolo: 200 million

Also,

Androids Arc Piccolo vs SSJ Trunks (Mecha Freeza Arc), Mecha Freeza, SSJ Namek Goku, 100% Namek Freeza and King Cold

My scale would be:

SSJ Trunks: 170 million
SSJ Goku: 180 million
SSJ Sick Androids Arc Goku: 190 million
Piccolo: 200 million

I'm not really good at team fights, but I can probably say that the team might have a chance against this Piccolo. They would manage to beat him I suppose.

SSJ3 Namek Goku vs Grade 2 Vegeta (Cell Arc)

I have SSJ3 Namek Goku equal to Cell Games Piccolo at 1,200,000,000. I also have Grade 2 Vegeta below Piccolo, I have him at 1,125,000,000. Goku wins.

[dragon boss z]

At any right, I don't have to prove anything because it was stupid claim to make in the first place.

It's a stupid claim to think Chappa and Chi chi can't shoot ki blats? I mean they could learn how, but they don't know any techniques that shoot ki. Back in the old dragon ball there was no regular ki blast characters used. There was just the kamehameha, dodon pa, tri beam, and spirit ball. Only Piccolo just shot ki blasts. So show me anybody just using ki blasts besides those moves I mentioned. Or show me a budokai contestant using a ki attack that didn't go to the turtle or crane school.

It's not the point I was getting across. It's the fact he knows what ki is and can control it while Chi-Chi is stated to be his only primary teacher. Trunks didn't teach Goten shit... otherwise, he would've already known bukujutsu.

Well I'm sure Chi chi knows about ki. That doesn't mean she can shoot ki blasts. Videl learned about ki, but couldn't shoot ki basts.

Still missing the point. I said Roshi couldn't match Initial Weighted Goku's casual jumping height as in... he can't jump nearly as fast as he could in order to keep up. The height itself isn't the thing, you can't compare feats like that.

Goku was severely holding back on chi chi.

Doesn't really matter if Yajirobe fought Shen or Chiaotzu fought Tao as they were taken down with practically no effort whatsoever and nobody really cared that they were defeated. When you said she was fodder I thought you were implying her strength was pretty much a joke in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, like how the original series treated Freeza after the Freeza Saga, when the story showed otherwise.

No, I meant she was a joke compered to the actual people who had a chance of winning. She would beat most if not all non turlte/crane school competitors.

I also don't think Krillin or Yamcha can one-shot her either. They're definitely a lot stronger but she was good enough for them to acknowledge her. Tao I don't think she would lose that badly at all... I still think he's stronger (mostly because he was made out to be a bigger deal) but Tien took care of him with even greater ease than Goku did Chi-Chi.

Tien was actually serious against Tao though, while Goku was barely fighting back. And Tao actually landed a blade attack on Tien.

A lot... because you were using it to downplay her by saying "oh she only got in because she got lucky" even though it's clearly not the case and most of the finalists didn't fight anyone of note in those prelims. Also disagree with Tao being fodder... Krillin and Yamcha were afraid of fighting Tien after seeing how easily he defeated him.

But she did get in because she was lucky. If she bumped into anyone that made it in, or even Yajirobe, and maybe Chiatzu, she wouldn't of made it in.

Either way, a blast that can only destroy the stadium would nothing for her to deal with.

Maybe she would miss one. All she said was that she should end it. She never said she could lose. Maybe she could of, but that is up for interpretation.

When did I say it was a fact Tao was stronger? I said it was a fact he had better feats. Those are two completely different things.

Maybe because they are facts? Is it bias to claim that Frieza is stronger than the farmer with a shot gun? No it's a fact.

That's not me saying it's fact Tao was stronger. I was just pointing out that my arguments for Tao being stronger were facts. Maybe I used a bad example.

Goku said Chappa would die if he used all of his strength and that's beyond just getting serious. Goku toyed King Chappa in order to make him angry and predictable like he did Nappa or Butta and Jheese, while he treated the fight with Akkuman like a game and only fought somewhat seriously when he pulled out that spear.

Goku never said that. He just casually beat Chappa.

Chun was only shown shocked after Goku defeated Chappa...

Because it all happened in one instant. It's not like there was a panel of Roshi's face in between the mouth blast and Chappa's defeat. Both the mouth blast and Chappa's defeat happened back to back, and then Roshi's face was shown after both, but then he mentioned the shock of the mouth blast. He didn't say "I can't believe he defeated Chappa so easily". That would change things.

Chun may not have commented on how easily Goku won (it'd probably be redundant considering Yamcha already did and he's far more familiar with the reputation) but everything else points to him not expecting Goku to get nearly this strong.

You want to go by something where it isn't even certain Roshi is surprised Goku beat Tao, but you don't want to go by where Roshi litterally says he is surprised Goku beat Tao?

I exaggerated to make a point that Goku had already surpassed Tao 3 years prior and the gang had already saw that same Goku fight seriously on Baba's Palace. They also knew Goku would get even stronger for the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai but still thought Chappa would be a challenge and were shocked that he wasn't. The only way for that to make sense is if Chappa was even stronger than the Goku who beat Tao.

No, because nobody thought Goku would lose. They all knew Goku would of probably won. And they seemed to be going more of Chappa's reputation.

[/quote]
You may not like the idea of Chappa being stronger but that's just how the story is.
[/quote]

No, if you go by the story Tao is most likely stronger. Like I said it is the same thing comparing someone like Yakkon to Frieza. Yakkon by statements may sound stronger, but he isn't.

...and really?! 23rd Goku is worlds above 22nd Goku who's worlds above the gang's estimation of his strength would be which stronger than when he beat Tao. Saying 23rd Goku is only 2x stronger than the Goku who beat Tao would imply Tao is comparable to a being who took a Kamehameha from a far stronger Goku like it was nothing with less than half his power. That's an incredibly stupid claim.

Who took a kamehameha that was less than half power?

[TheUltimateNinja]

...and really?! 23rd Goku is worlds above 22nd Goku who's worlds above the gang's estimation of his strength would be which stronger than when he beat Tao. Saying 23rd Goku is only 2x stronger than the Goku who beat Tao would imply Tao is comparable to a being who took a Kamehameha from a far stronger Goku like it was nothing with less than half his power. That's an incredibly stupid claim.

Who took a kamehameha that was less than half power?

Old Piccolo.

[dragon boss z]

...and really?! 23rd Goku is worlds above 22nd Goku who's worlds above the gang's estimation of his strength would be which stronger than when he beat Tao. Saying 23rd Goku is only 2x stronger than the Goku who beat Tao would imply Tao is comparable to a being who took a Kamehameha from a far stronger Goku like it was nothing with less than half his power. That's an incredibly stupid claim.

Who took a kamehameha that was less than half power?

Old Piccolo.

Who said it was half power? And King Piccolo took it with no damage anyways.

[ryan1227]

Who said it was half power?

Chapter: 143, P12.3
Context: Piccolo continues to outclass Goku
Piccolo: “Hohhohhoh…You have no chance of winning, no matter how you struggle, and you can’t run away either. It seems all that’s left for you is the road to death. I’m still not even putting out half of my power. Too bad for you…so then, what will you do?”

[DanielSSJ]

Who said it was half power? And King Piccolo took it with no damage anyways.

There seems to be a bit of confusion here. It was Piccolo who who was at less than half power, not the Kamehameha he tanked.
From the Strength Checker:

Chapter: 143, P12.3
Context: Piccolo continues to outclass Goku
Piccolo: “Hohhohhoh…You have no chance of winning, no matter how you struggle, and you can’t run away either. It seems all that’s left for you is the road to death. I’m still not even putting out half of my power. Too bad for you…so then, what will you do?”