DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Then why the hell did you claim that in the first place?
I never claimed ki attacks made him stronger than them. I was just pointing out that was an advantage he has.
Well we know the Goku that she fought defeated King Chappa, who buffed up significantly to beat the Goku who whooped his ass back in the prelims of the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai, with virtually no effort so it's safe to assume even Initial Weighted Goku is a lot more powerful than Kid Goku during the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai.
Chappa never fought a serious 22nd Goku. All this proves is initial weighted Goku is above initial 22nd Goku, which is just common sense.
Chi-Chi was actually pushing Goku back (she never landed any strikes, though)... though that's mainly because he wasn't fighting back but it's still happened and showed she was able to do so.
Ya that's impressive, but Goku still thought he might of put too much into one of his casual attacks to beat her.
Krillin took a direct hit from Piccolo and was fine.
He even countered right after a big hit from Piccolo.
And he also survived a hit that Piccolo though killed Krillin and was pretty much fine.
So it's pretty clear 23rd Krillin far outclasses Chi chi.
I mainly used her making past the prelims as citation because the story prophesied the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai as being the most decisive tournament of them all as only the best of the best showed up (and only the truly strong will make it). No scrubs like Manwolf and Pamput, or gimmicks like Bacterian and Ranfan.
Well ya, those are true scrubs. Chi chi would of been a good competitor in the 21st or maybe 22nd, but she was the weakest of the finalists in the 23rd.
Besides she didn't just beat them. She blitzed and casually one-shotted them like the other finalists.
Ya, like I said she was only fodder to the other finalists. The non main characters were fodder to her.
#18 held back Vegeta as well (most likely even more so) and she whooped his ass. Trunks fought pretty much evenly with her and only struggled because of the costume.
Actually it was implied she started using full power (but still not fighting all out), and 17 even said 18 probably wouldn't be able to win if the others jumped in. And Piccolo said the biggest reason Vegeta was losing was his stamina was dropping while 18's wasn't.
I thought you were talking about him not going all-out to avoid killing Chappa, but Goku doesn't really need to state he was toying with him in order to make him mad and predictable. It's obvious by his actions.
I think he was toying with him because he likes to fight, and like he said, doesn't want to kill anyone.
Again, actions > words... if Toriyama came out and stated Goku is a ferret would you believe him? Anyways, if it's only the blast and not Goku beating Chappa so easily that was noteworthy for him then Toriyama should've shown him reacting to the blast not IMMEDIATELY after Goku defeats Chappa nor would he fear for his chances of winning after Goku confirmed he wasn't really trying.
If Toriyama showed Roshi's face right after the mouth blast it would of disrupted the flow of the fight. He added the line to show what surprised Roshi. Not that Toriyama put that much thought into it, lol. And Roshi was only afraid of Goku's full power. He only said it might be bad for him after Goku said he was holding back a lot.
If that Goku weaker than when he beat Tao then Yamcha, Krillin, and Jackie Chun would've made statement like "Maybe Chappa wasn't so great afterall" and not basically consider themselves fucked.
Like I said, Roshi was only afraid of Goku's full power. If Goku was restricted to the power he used on Chappa he would be stomped by Roshi and Yamcha and Krillin would probably win in a decent fight.
Except Krillin and Yamcha have much better feats than Tao in the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai but they're implied to be far below Tsuru themselves. I'm not downplaying Tao you're just overrating by blowing that one statement from Jackie Chun out of proportion.
When was it stated they were below Tsuru? I guess you could say they were because Tien didn't mention anyone was stronger until Roshi. And what feats do they have that put them decisively above Tao? Goku beating Krillin made Tsuru think Goku might of been able to beat Tao, so that could mean Tao<=>Krillin<holding back Goku<Tsuru which could add up.
It's not like Tao was is a SSJ2 Gohan from the Cell Games where his powers was treated as a benchmark. He was surpassed by Goku in the arc he was introduced in and Goku went on to fight an opponent that's even stronger than Tao in the following arc.
The only people who are 100% stronger than Tao in the 22nd are Roshi, Goku, Tien, and Tsuru. Krillin and Yamcha are probably in the same tier as Tao. Possibly a bit above.
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No, I'm actually using reasoning and basing my arguments on any credible source possible while you just running with these statements like you're trying to sell them.
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I'm not just running with statements. I'm also going off of feats. You are running on the one fact that people were surprised how easy Goku beat Chappa. Goku is an unquantifiable amount stronger than he was when he beat Tao, and Goku had a harder time with Tao. So unless you can prove exactly how much stronger Goku got, you can't calc who is stronger based off of that. And if you can't prove who is stronger via statements, then you go by feats.
Also, Chun wasn't even surprised Goku could expel his breath like some blast. He just commented on the fact Goku used that mouth blast to stop himself in the air.
Calling it simply unbelievable isn't even surprised to you? come on now.
It's not even that subjective... the answer is just not blatantly obvious like say... the farmer is weaker than Raditz. But since you wanna go to war about it...
I agree it is obviously not as obvious as the farmer vs Raditz, but it's a guy with feats vs a guy with no feats. And the guy with no feats has no solid statements to prove he is above. I would agree statements don't prove Tao is above either, but since they both have statements that could imply them being stronger than each other you have to go by feats.
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1. Yamcha was there when Goku fought Grandpa Gohan, an even stronger opponent than Tao, so he has a good idea how strong Goku was when he beat Tao.[/quote]
They couldn't tell how strong people were by how big their ki was back then though, and if he couldn't even see Goku's attack on Akkuman how would he know exactly how strong Gohan and Goku were? And Gohan wasn't that much above Tao. He was stronger, but he fought so well Goku because he knew his moves, and Goku wasn't aiming to kill Gohan.
2. Yamcha said Goku might be able to squeak by... implying it'd be a miracle for Goku to win.
That's not how I interpret the line. I see it as Yamcha is saying Goku is good enough where he could see him winning. Yamcha was surprised how easily Goku won though. And Yamcha was just going off of what he heard. Notice how he said "he's said to be" and "legend is". On Roshi seemed to actually be familiar with Chappa.
Except 22nd Goku was outright stated and shown to be world's above the level he was when he beat Tao, and that's just his Match Level. His Battle Level is even higher than that so only 2x stronger is really a disservice to his gains.
Dragon ball uses statements like that all of the time. Piccolo also said that about the supreme Kai. Does that mean the supreme Kai is over twice as strong as Buu saga Piccolo?
But then again I don't really use the official numbers when regarding OG Dragon Ball.
Even if you don't use numbers, being beaten by Goku with an unkown strength while holding back an unknown degree, there are just too many variables to say Chappa's exact strength. And that is when you look to feats.
