I find Goku to be the worst character in this show

[TheMikado]

I'm not arguing whether the decision itself was reckless I'm arguing against the concept of Hero and villain, good and bad, being alien to Goku. They're not. Goku is always fully aware whether his actions were good or bad and never oblivious. I'm making the case that Goku always had a sense of justice and right and wrong where current arguments are attempting to strip that from him.

[Boo Machine]

I'm not arguing whether the decision itself was reckless I'm arguing against the concept of Hero and villain l, bad and bad, being alien to Goku. They're not. Goku is always fully aware whether his actions were good or bad and never oblivious. I'm making the case that Goku always had a sense of justice and right and wrong where current arguments are attempting to strip that from him.

I don't know exactly how many are trying to strip it away. But I see where you're coming from.

[DBZAOTA482]

No idea if this is allows here or not, but everyone else wanted to fight them. Vegeta specifically threatened to kill anyone that tried.
Goku is the only one out of all of them that gives a good moral answer. I don't understand why you attribute this to being a Goku problem when the others have even less moral reasoning for this.
http://www.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/336/7

Goku at least tries to have an additional justification absent from the others.

Just because Goku has a justification for it doesn't make it a good one. Nor does others wanting to fight as well make the overall decision any less reckless.

Exactly. This isn't some sort of moral issue that needs justification. Dr Gero brings about the end of the world as they know it. Besides, he worked the Red Ribbon Army. The army that Goku fought against and tried to take over the world. He was no saint to begin with anyway. They had every right to go after Gero. And Vegeta's threat means nothing because Goku, and most likely Piccolo at that time, could kick his ass.

Gero only brought about the "end of the world" because they unprepared but now they can prepare for it with pre-existing knowledge.

P.S. Taking the coward's way out is not heroic at all.

P.S.S. Vegeta would shitstomp Piccolo.

P.S.S.S . I like applesauce.

[Lord Beerus]

Just because Goku has a justification for it doesn't make it a good one. Nor does others wanting to fight as well make the overall decision any less reckless.

Exactly. This isn't some sort of moral issue that needs justification. Dr Gero brings about the end of the world as they know it. Besides, he worked the Red Ribbon Army. The army that Goku fought against and tried to take over the world. He was no saint to begin with anyway. They had every right to go after Gero. And Vegeta's threat means nothing because Goku, and most likely Piccolo at that time, could kick his ass.

Gero only brought about the "end of the world" because they unprepared but now they can prepare for it with pre-existing knowledge.

P.S. Taking the coward's way out is not heroic at all.

P.S.S. Vegeta would shitstomp Piccolo.

P.S.S.S . I like applesauce.

How is going after Gero the cowards way out? And since when do the Z-Fighters care about doing anything that can be perceived as heroic? They aren't superheroes. They are a group of martial artists interested in getting as strong as they can. Hell, they were all in agreement with Goku that it would be best to fight the Androids and test themselves. Even though a Super Saiyan from the future warned them about how strong the Androids were. And even when there were prepared, the Android still kicked all their arses.

[Boo Machine]

Gero only brought about the "end of the world" because they unprepared but now they can prepare for it with pre-existing knowledge.

P.S. Taking the coward's way out is not heroic at all.

P.S.S. Vegeta would shitstomp Piccolo.

P.S.S.S . I like applesauce.

And it still didn't work out. They all got their shit rocked. They got very lucky that some weird time anomaly didn't make 17 & 18 the absolute killing machines that they were in the future timeline, otherwise everyone would be dead and it would have been over right then and there.

P.S. What's the coward part? Saving the world before anything bad happens? I feel like this would be the best way to use that pre-existing knowledge.

[DBZAOTA482]

How is going after Gero the cowards way out? And since when do the Z-Fighters care about doing anything that can be perceived as heroic? They aren't superheroes. They are a group of martial artists interested in getting as strong as they can. Hell, they were all in agreement with Goku that it would be best to fight the Androids and test themselves. Even though a Super Saiyan from the future warned them about how strong the Androids were. And even when there were prepared, the Android still kicked all their arses.

And it still didn't work out. They all got their shit rocked. They got very lucky that some weird time anomaly didn't make 17 & 18 the absolute killing machines that they were in the future timeline, otherwise everyone would be dead and it would have been over right then and there.

P.S. What's the coward part? Saving the world before anything bad happens? I feel like this would be the best way to use that pre-existing knowledge.

Because Gero, as far as they know, is just a frail old man... attacking him when he can't even defend himself for something he might do is pretty drastic. Would you kill Hitler as a kid for what he becomes in the future?

Things only got as bad as they did because the androids were a far cry from what they were said to be in the future (Dr. Gero turning himself into an android, #19, #17 and #18 being way stronger, etc.) ... which is something they couldn't possibly account for, but still things never turned out the hell-hole Future Trunks' timeline was.

[Boo Machine]

Because Gero, as far as they know, is just a frail old man... attacking him when he can't even defend himself for something he might do is pretty drastic. Would you kill Hitler as a kid for what he becomes in the future?

Things only got as bad as they did because the androids were a far cry from what they were said to be in the future (Dr. Gero turning himself into an android, #19, #17 and #18 being way stronger, etc.) ... which is something they couldn't possibly account for, but still things never turned out the hell-hole Future Trunks' timeline was.

As far as they know? They know what he is. An evil scientest who worked for the RR army. They know what the RR army is about. They were told what he did in the future. Finding out the location of his lab and seeing if they can stop it, not even necessarily with killing, is not unreasonable. There is no "might". They know he will do these things and have no reason to suspect otherwise. It's not being a coward its preventing the end of the world. And even if it is cowardly, I'd say saving the world is totally worth being called a coward. Even if he was just a frail old man, he is still a frail old man with the intention of building death machines for the sole purpose of killing and taking over the world. Hardly a sympathetic case.

Exactly. They couldn't account for anything that happened. But They could have easily prevented it. But not only did they think they could take two androids with a little training and then fail, they got 3 additional androids plus Cell. Like I said they got lucky that 17& 18 weren't the same monsters from the future timeline otherwise they would all be dead. It worked out in the end, but that's easy to say in hindsight once everything is over.

[ChronoTwigger]

### SAVE IT, PRINT IT AND HANG IT IN YOUR ROOM ###

Kid Goku avenged Upa father and used the spheres to bring happyness again.
Kid Goku destroyed the Red Ribbon, mostly 'cause perceived the evil intentions.

Goku defeated King Piccolo, aware of him being a danger for Earth.

Goku defeated Nappa and save Earth from Vegeta.
Go to Namek, and when Krillin die express sincerely words of friendship.

After reducing Frieza to total absolute incapacity, he offer him a way to redeem himself.
But Frieza was so selfish and angry that miss that chance to change life, and in fact kill himself.

Goku help Future Trunks to restore his wasted world.

Goku was totally enraged to know Zamasu harmed his family, even in a future that doesn't happen anymore.

I miss something for sure, the list is very very long.
But the morale is:

GOKU ALWAYS TRY TO DO GOOD.

Now a lot of kids talk about how Goku is "doing bad".

I'll try to convey this concept, but I don't have any hope that someone will admit he was wrong. Kids think that being stubborn is a value, while instead reconsidering (or at least meditating about) is a trait of maturity.

IN NO STORY of this world, despite some silly american thing, the hero face something "outside" himself.
All the stuff he meet are steps in his journey of grow, from inner imperfection to inner peace. That's why you like the story: even you face each day a journey of inner grow, with many many doubts and risks.

I know that you think "it's Goku just shooting beams!" but that doesn't matter, stories (at least good ones) feature that.
Goku face things in a journey of inner build up.

For the first time in that story, Goku face something new.
His pure nature get mistaken.

Lets' resume, you want?
ZENO (not Goku) come after the U6 tournament. Instead of erasing everything, ZENO state a tournament like that will be fun.
GOKU wasn't unaware of the risk. Beerus was, but for Goku (a pure hearted) Zeno is just a kid.
Beerus try and try again to stop Goku mess with Zeno, but for Goku people are implicitly good until proven wrong (that's why you like so much Goku, that's his goodness, you know that Goku can find that YOU TOO are good inside despite the daily routine and mistakes).

After a while, Goku talk to Zeno again, and ZENO (not Goku) decide that erasing universes is a fun thing to do.
Goku never said "ok let's do it". He always PREVENT the destruction of something. He can't stop Zeno to destroy an universe, so if the kid want for a fancy show, he do lights, flashes, Kaiohken, enlarge the wolf, doesn't harmi him AND IN THE END also state that want to fight again Bergamo, 'cause he find value in him.
He did the same for HIT!

iN THE END, Goku didn't put anything at risk, It was Zeno since the start.
Goku just acted as always do. FIND GOODNESS IN EVERYONE. He surely think that the good kid will do nothing bad in the end.

He gave a chance to Frieza.
He gave a chance to Androids.
He gave a chance to TienShinHan, Piccolo, Vegeta.
He gave a chance even TO ZAMASU.

And now is giving a chance to Zeno.


I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE THINKING: "IF I WAS IN HIS SHOES, I SURELY DO THINGS MORE LOGICAL..."
But that's exactly the reason you like Goku so much.
You feel the urge to execute Frieza, while Goku pure heart can do something you want and you cannot do: see possible good inside everything.
Goku represent the good child inside you that the real world sometime suffocate.
And that's exactly the reason you like (at subcon levels) that character.

Maybe something inside us changed, and our hard times make hard to recognize kindness or recognize value into others.
And if you tell: is a risk that put other people in danger, mind that it's better to fail for a good value that live in fear and slavery. That's the foundation of all of our families and countries.
I'm old enough to keep those values.


Actually the plot lack a real villain. And for sure is not Goku.

[Alee9977]

I really like Goku, he is my favourite character after Gohan. I love having an unique protagonist such as him, he isn't a hero, he doesn't fight for anybody, just for himself, but he is willing to help anybody who asks for it (like Trunks in the last arc), having the hero type protagonist who fights for others and for the sake of the world is something we see everyday in any show. For Goku, saving the world is only one of the consequences of he wanting to fight strong guys, the majority of the times it isn't his fault, I think since the Cell saga nothing has been his fault.
Because Goku isn't a hero, It was never Toriyama's intention to make him a hero, he is the protagonist of Dragon Ball, if you are expecting him to be a hero, you will never like it, just see him as how he should be seen, a guy who likes fighting strong guys and wants to keep getting stronger to face even stronger guys (and in the middle of that, he saves the world sometimes).

[DBZAOTA482]

Because Gero, as far as they know, is just a frail old man... attacking him when he can't even defend himself for something he might do is pretty drastic. Would you kill Hitler as a kid for what he becomes in the future?

Things only got as bad as they did because the androids were a far cry from what they were said to be in the future (Dr. Gero turning himself into an android, #19, #17 and #18 being way stronger, etc.) ... which is something they couldn't possibly account for, but still things never turned out the hell-hole Future Trunks' timeline was.

As far as they know? They know what he is. An evil scientest who worked for the RR army. They know what the RR army is about. They were told what he did in the future. Finding out the location of his lab and seeing if they can stop it, not even necessarily with killing, is not unreasonable. There is no "might". They know he will do these things and have no reason to suspect otherwise. It's not being a coward its preventing the end of the world. And even if it is cowardly, I'd say saving the world is totally worth being called a coward. Even if he was just a frail old man, he is still a frail old man with the intention of building death machines for the sole purpose of killing and taking over the world. Hardly a sympathetic case.

Exactly. They couldn't account for anything that happened. But They could have easily prevented it. But not only did they think they could take two androids with a little training and then fail, they got 3 additional androids plus Cell. Like I said they got lucky that 17& 18 weren't the same monsters from the future timeline otherwise they would all be dead. It worked out in the end, but that's easy to say in hindsight once everything is over.

Evil scientist or not (he could always turn a new leaf), he's still a frail old man. Attacking him is still extreme and they'd be fucked when Cell enters the scene. That's why it's cowardly.

And it's not "little training", they had a 3 year head start and they used that to train for the threat. If it was up against the androids from Trunks' timeline they'd probably succeed from the jump.

[Boo Machine]

Evil scientist or not (he could always turn a new leaf), he's still a frail old man. Attacking him is still extreme and they'd be fucked when Cell enters the scene. That's why it's cowardly.

And it's not "little training", they had a 3 year head start and they used that to train for the threat. If it was up against the androids from Trunks' timeline they'd probably succeed from the jump.

Evil scientist or not? So his abilities and his intention with those abilities doesn't matter, but his age is somehow the deciding factor for whether or not they should stop him?

Gero can be a frail kitten- person hybrid with polio and and a constant rain cloud over his head, if he has every intention to make death machines with the sole purpose of dealing out death so he can run his death empire, the dude needs to get his skull stomped in as far as I'm concerned. The dude had spy bots roaming the earth for Goku to build those very machines so there is no IF, only when. There is no turning over a new leaf and you don't risk the world over a "maybe" if you want to be held up by any moral standard. It's not cowardly. That's pretty much saying they should let world ending robots be built so they can prove they're big brave boys and are totally strong enough to face them. Well they did. And they got destroyed. Good job heroes. A lot of good the word "brave" does them when they're face down after getting beaten 4 against 2.

I don't think it's cowardly to ensure the lives and safety of innocent people and loved ones, but that's just me.

Would they be fucked when Cell comes in? Doesn't it take 20 years for Cell to come out? I'd think by then they could take him. Though I admit that's pure guess work.

IF they faced the androids from trunks timeline. But they didn't. Probably doesn't say much. If's/Ands/ or buts, don't help the case. And you yourself said there was no way they could account for anything else. It may not be a little training, but they still got their heads knocked all over. Something that could have been prevented by hunting Gero the polio stricken cat person, early.

[TheMikado]

^ I suggest you watch the movie minority report. Almost universally speaking across societies these hypothetical scenarios are generally frowned upon and considered immoral. Even in biblical scripture you have several instances where someone is propheced to overthrow or become a threat and each time it is considered immoral to do before the threat materializes. It's depicts in media, religious scripture, US government has a name for it in "preemptive strike" and they all have a very negative connotation to them as a plan that should never be implemented. I'm not sure what people are so gun how to do something that is being pretty blatantly cast as immoral... anyway Dr Gero may or may not be a saint. We don't know the circumstances of his work with Rr army, but punishment of future crimes is near universal considered immoral across most societies.

Actually for anyone still suggesting this I suggest you read up on Precrime and why it is so controversial and considered immoral.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precrime

[Boo Machine]

^ I suggest you watch the movie minority report. Almost universally speaking across societies these hypothetical scenarios are generally frowned upon and considered immoral. Even in biblical scripture you have several instances where someone is propheced to overthrow or become a threat and each time it is considered immoral to do before the threat materializes. It's depicts in media, religious scripture, US government has a name for it in "preemptive strike" and they all have a very negative connotation to them as a plan that should never be implemented. I'm not sure what people are so gun how to do something that is being pretty blatantly cast as immoral... anyway Dr Gero may or may not be a saint. We don't know the circumstances of his work with Rr army, but punishment of future crimes is near universal considered immoral across most societies.

Sure, if you consider any other story. But we are all aware dragonball isn't that deep and there was no attempt to play it that way with Gero. We're given the information of Gero builds androids for the purpose of killing and taking over the world. And we're told this by a man who has lived through it from the future and says it's a sure thing and will 100% happen with no real reason to doubt what he says about a guy who worked for an infamous army. And as it turns out, Bulma even knew who he was. It's clear cut and the morality of it is never explored except in one panel where Goku gives an excuse of why they should not do it, and then it's never touched on ever again.

In almost any other story or in an alternate Cell saga story that explores morality, you might have a point. Not in this one though.

[Kagari]

The more I think about it, the more I would say he's not the worst. If anything he's just one-dimensional these days... which is pretty boring.

[TheMikado]

^ I suggest you watch the movie minority report. Almost universally speaking across societies these hypothetical scenarios are generally frowned upon and considered immoral. Even in biblical scripture you have several instances where someone is propheced to overthrow or become a threat and each time it is considered immoral to do before the threat materializes. It's depicts in media, religious scripture, US government has a name for it in "preemptive strike" and they all have a very negative connotation to them as a plan that should never be implemented. I'm not sure what people are so gun how to do something that is being pretty blatantly cast as immoral... anyway Dr Gero may or may not be a saint. We don't know the circumstances of his work with Rr army, but punishment of future crimes is near universal considered immoral across most societies.

Sure, if you consider any other story. But we are all aware dragonball isn't that deep and there was no attempt to play it that way with Gero. We're given the information of Gero builds androids for the purpose of killing and taking over the world. And we're told this by a man who has lived through it from the future and says it's a sure thing and will 100% happen with no real reason to doubt what he says about a guy who worked for an infamous army. And as it turns out, Bulma even knew who he was. It's clear cut and the morality of it is never explored except in one panel where Goku gives an excuse of why they should not do it, and then it's never touched on ever again.

In almost any other story or in an alternate Cell saga story that explores morality, you might have a point. Not in this one though.

The story isn't trying to make a deep critique or statement. It's touching on a somewhat gray area where Goku once again out of all of the Z warriors displays a higher standard of morality. Gokus literally just said punishing someone for something before the actually do it is bad. I'm not trying to make Goku good or bad, complex or simple. He's just a super strong guy who is trying to not be a jerk and be halfway decent. That's how he was always characterized. The concept of precrime is deep but the story and Gokus response aren't: Don't do bad things. Is Goku perfect and follows it 100% of the time? No but that's what made him an interesting character. Sometimes he could be a bit selfish but his heart was generally in the right place. He was written like abnormal decent person with some caveats.

[Miracles]

I'm sorry a character who fights for the lulz regardless of the circumstances and gives us high quality battles is always epic. Goku hiring Hit to kill himself is an entertaining idea. And demonstrates how deep Goku is in fulfilling his own pleasures. The guy is interesting. But hey, there is always a loud, very lonely kid with a SH who chases after his friends no matter what and saves everybody. He is typically boring, go watch him...

[Boo Machine]

The story isn't trying to make a deep critique or statement. It's touching on a somewhat gray area where Goku once again out of all of the Z warriors displays a higher standard of morality. Gokus literally just said punishing someone for something before the actually do it is bad. I'm not trying to make Goku good or bad, complex or simple. He's just a super strong guy who is trying to not be a jerk and be halfway decent. That's how he was always characterized. The concept of precrime is deep but the story and Gokus response aren't: Don't do bad things. Is Goku perfect and follows it 100% of the time? No but that's what made him an interesting character. Sometimes he could be a bit selfish but his heart was generally in the right place. He was written like abnormal decent person with some caveats.

I agree. I personally don't mind the choice at all. Though I would still argue the decision he makes can still be perceived as questionable as it's not a 100% correct answer and still has consequences.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I'm sorry a character who fights for the lulz regardless of the circumstances and gives us high quality battles is always epic. Goku hiring Hit to kill himself is an entertaining idea. And demonstrates how deep Goku is in fulfilling his own pleasures. The guy is interesting. But hey, there is always a loud, very lonely kid with a SH who chases after his friends no matter what and saves everybody. He is typically boring, go watch him...

You are talking about One Piece right? I do agree, despite how much I love One Piece.

[TheMathemagician]

I find Goku can be one-dimensional, but also unpredictable, and I have a love/hate with how his savagery has been dialed up.

[SansrivaaL]

Seriously people are jumping the gun, nothing has been destroyed yet, NOTHING has happened yet! just claims that have yet to be done, hell if Goku acts giggly when a universe or someone dies then I wont just admit I'm wrong for standing up for Goku all this time, I'll even join your cause on making him look the ultimate most horrible SoB that ever existed in shonen main character history.