Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
Noah wrote: I agree that maybe the two last arcs of Dragon Ball were full of dumb decisions, but I always felt like that was something to show these characters are not flawless and that's what made the story somewhat interesting in my point of view.
I imagine you mean to get the plot moving by any means necessary? Honestly I would argue that the Cell, Android arc and Buu saga are prehaps the worst that Goku ever was. Transforming him into a full blown blood knight who constantly made everything worse on the chance that he could sate his battle boner, he also constantly risked everything and only once it didn't actually blow up in his face.
Heck the Cell arc and Buu arc would improve tremendously with the removal of all the dumb stuff that happens in them.
ABED wrote:Forget what he said. When did Goku ever hold back against a villain to spare their feelings? And if Goku really wanted a good fight then why would he fight Vegeta? If he can turn Super Saiyan 3, Vegeta's not a challenge. What is he getting out of this? And why would he risk Buu being released? When has he ever allowed the villain to be released when he didn't intend to fight them again?
And why you assume Goku saw Vegeta as a villain? In one of my posts in this thread I said: "Goku is not stupid, he realized that Vegeta had changed through the years but still needed to solve this grudge he had between them and the idea of risking himself using a transformation he's not used to, didn't suit him well." is not just about sparing his feelings, but that Goku probably knew his decision would be best for Bulma and Trunks too. We can't have an argument if you ignore character statements, Goku didn't turn SSJ3 because all the reasons I cited above, not going to repeat myself. Goku valued Vegeta as a challenge for him in SSJ2. What he got was Vegeta not having a grudge anymore, not be willing to harm innocent people in order to fight him and making him realize all he was full of crap saying all he did was because he wanted to be evil again. He didn't even know what Boo battle power could be, Vegeta even said that if Kaioshin was impressed with them dealing with a bunch of weak mooks, Majin Boo should not be a big deal either, Goku probably bought that idea before feeling the real power of the enemy.
Vegeta just murdered a ton of people. Goku doesn't see him as a good guy. And yes, you can ignore statements since actions speak louder than words. If a character says something, but their actions show otherwise, then you go with what they do. At best, you are trying to come up with reasons why Goku didn't turn Super Saiyan but since Toriyama didn't think of the transformation until after Goku vs. Vegeta II, at best you are putting a square peg in a round hole. Goku values a challenge when he's at his best. SS2 was not his best. I can't make heads or tails of your last few sentences. Vegeta most definitely still held a grudge.
Transforming him into a full blown blood knight who constantly made everything worse on the chance that he could sate his battle boner, he also constantly risked everything and only once it didn't actually blow up in his face.
Battle boner? It's like hating on Breaking Bad because you hate that Walter is an asshole who hurts people. Dragon Ball isn't a superhero show so it's not a requirement that they always do or try to do the right thing. What is necessary is the characters hold the audience's interest.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Noah wrote: I agree that maybe the two last arcs of Dragon Ball were full of dumb decisions, but I always felt like that was something to show these characters are not flawless and that's what made the story somewhat interesting in my point of view.
I imagine you mean to get the plot moving by any means necessary? Honestly I would argue that the Cell, Android arc and Buu saga are prehaps the worst that Goku ever was. Transforming him into a full blown blood knight who constantly made everything worse on the chance that he could sate his battle boner, he also constantly risked everything and only once it didn't actually blow up in his face.
Heck the Cell arc and Buu arc would improve tremendously with the removal of all the dumb stuff that happens in them.
Last I checked, Cell/Boo arc Goku never willingly sacrificed the lives of trillions just so he can have a good fight like in Super. In fact, he knew his time was over and he was the man with the plan.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.
I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.
Noah wrote: I agree that maybe the two last arcs of Dragon Ball were full of dumb decisions, but I always felt like that was something to show these characters are not flawless and that's what made the story somewhat interesting in my point of view.
I imagine you mean to get the plot moving by any means necessary? Honestly I would argue that the Cell, Android arc and Buu saga are prehaps the worst that Goku ever was. Transforming him into a full blown blood knight who constantly made everything worse on the chance that he could sate his battle boner, he also constantly risked everything and only once it didn't actually blow up in his face.
Heck the Cell arc and Buu arc would improve tremendously with the removal of all the dumb stuff that happens in them.
Last I checked, Cell/Boo arc Goku never willingly sacrificed the lives of trillions just so he can have a good fight like in Super. In fact, he knew his time was over and he was the man with the plan.
No, he just pointlessly endangered them along with everybody else in the cast. What's his plan to combat the apocalypse? Half ass his training for 3 years (he doesn't even make Gohan an SS ffs). What's his plan to stop Boo from hatching? NOT use his full power, like he says he will, against Vegeta and dick around with him. What's his plan to beat Kid Boo? NOT use fusion or call in Gotenks & Gohan to easily win the fight.
Let's not pretend Goku hasn't made things purposefully worse purely for his own entertainment, the Survival Arc is merely the latest and biggest example of what was going to happen eventually with him.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
Noah wrote: I agree that maybe the two last arcs of Dragon Ball were full of dumb decisions, but I always felt like that was something to show these characters are not flawless and that's what made the story somewhat interesting in my point of view.
I imagine you mean to get the plot moving by any means necessary? Honestly I would argue that the Cell, Android arc and Buu saga are prehaps the worst that Goku ever was. Transforming him into a full blown blood knight who constantly made everything worse on the chance that he could sate his battle boner, he also constantly risked everything and only once it didn't actually blow up in his face.
Heck the Cell arc and Buu arc would improve tremendously with the removal of all the dumb stuff that happens in them.
I couldn't disagree more. Goku in the Androids and Boo arc is such an incredible progression of his character. He's flawed but has a maturity and logic to his actions that never betrays his core character.
I think both those arcs would suffer tremendously without the "dumb stuff."
Noah wrote: I agree that maybe the two last arcs of Dragon Ball were full of dumb decisions, but I always felt like that was something to show these characters are not flawless and that's what made the story somewhat interesting in my point of view.
I imagine you mean to get the plot moving by any means necessary? Honestly I would argue that the Cell, Android arc and Buu saga are prehaps the worst that Goku ever was. Transforming him into a full blown blood knight who constantly made everything worse on the chance that he could sate his battle boner, he also constantly risked everything and only once it didn't actually blow up in his face.
Heck the Cell arc and Buu arc would improve tremendously with the removal of all the dumb stuff that happens in them.
Last I checked, Cell/Boo arc Goku never willingly sacrificed the lives of trillions just so he can have a good fight like in Super. In fact, he knew his time was over and he was the man with the plan.
When has he willingly sacrificed the lives of trillions in Super? At worst, he accidentally risked lives because of unforeseen consequences.
Where as in the Cell arc, he willing waved off the chance to stop the androids from ever coming, even with the full knowledge that they would basically start the apocalypse. Because he wanted to fight the Androids.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
HeroR wrote:The characters in Super can work with Goku and they're treated like equals to him. Goku just being in the room doesn't take away from the character. In Z, the characters were so depended on Goku that they couldn't go an episode without mentioning him in some way even by hoping he will arrived, get better, training to get stronger, our last hope, being like him, ect. Goku was wanked to hell in Z, even when he wasn't in the room and everyone else was secondary to him. In fact, this was a major issue Goku had, which is why he didn't want to do anything in the Buu Saga.
Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Vegeta shouldn't have obtained SSBlue.
But ninja! How will Goku's first, greatest and most badass rival ever compete with him if he doesn't have the newest Super Saiyan form!
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
ABED wrote:Vegeta just murdered a ton of people. Goku doesn't see him as a good guy. And yes, you can ignore statements since actions speak louder than words. If a character says something, but their actions show otherwise, then you go with what they do. At best, you are trying to come up with reasons why Goku didn't turn Super Saiyan but since Toriyama didn't think of the transformation until after Goku vs. Vegeta II, at best you are putting a square peg in a round hole. Goku values a challenge when he's at his best. SS2 was not his best. I can't make heads or tails of your last few sentences. Vegeta most definitely still held a grudge.
I didn't said Goku saw him as a good guy either, but Goku did saw that he changed, that's why he tried to rationalize with him. No you can't ignore character statements when they provide a reason why 'x' character didn't did 'y' thing for example. We're discussing In-Universe here, so yes, of course I'm trying to reason with Goku's actions ignoring what the author planned to do in the future, if you're going pull the card "Oh but the author didn't intend to do that" so there's no point in having a forum here in Kanzenshuu, entitled "In-Universe". Goku values a challenge being at his best, but he wasn't used to SSJ3 as he was with SSJ2, confident that he could beat Vegeta even though they were almost equal in power. Ignore character statements as much as you want, it won't change the fact why he didn't use it on Vegeta. His grudge was because Goku and Gohan had surpassed him and saved his life before, he felt incompetent, incapable of overcoming his obstacles, that's why he did all that mess and felt responsible for Majin Boo that's why he sacrificed himself, in the end he realized what he did was not the best. Now if you're talking about Vegeta holding a grudge about Goku not using SSJ3 on him, their later interactions prove it that was solved, even with Vegeta still motivated to surpass Goku someday as in the Kanzenban ending.
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
ekrolo2 wrote:
But ninja! How will Goku's first, greatest and most badass rival ever compete with him if he doesn't have the newest Super Saiyan form!
An interesting choice would be to remove the form entirely as well as the whole Godhood absorption thing.
If Goku actually truly lost the power of a God forever once he ran out of time it would put a lot more weight behind his speech about there being a level he could never reach on his own.
It would work really well if BoG was a standalone.
ABED wrote:Vegeta just murdered a ton of people. Goku doesn't see him as a good guy. And yes, you can ignore statements since actions speak louder than words. If a character says something, but their actions show otherwise, then you go with what they do. At best, you are trying to come up with reasons why Goku didn't turn Super Saiyan but since Toriyama didn't think of the transformation until after Goku vs. Vegeta II, at best you are putting a square peg in a round hole. Goku values a challenge when he's at his best. SS2 was not his best. I can't make heads or tails of your last few sentences. Vegeta most definitely still held a grudge.
I didn't said Goku saw him as a good guy either, but Goku did saw that he changed, that's why he tried to rationalize with him. No you can't ignore character statements when they provide a reason why 'x' character didn't did 'y' thing for example. We're discussing In-Universe here, so yes, of course I'm trying to reason with Goku's actions ignoring what the author planned to do in the future, if you're going pull the card "Oh but the author didn't intend to do that" so there's no point in having a forum here in Kanzenshuu, entitled "In-Universe". Goku values a challenge being at his best, but he wasn't used to SSJ3 as he was with SSJ2, confident that he could beat Vegeta even though they were almost equal in power. Ignore character statements as much as you want, it won't change the fact why he didn't use it on Vegeta. His grudge was because Goku and Gohan had surpassed him and saved his life before, he felt incompetent, incapable of overcoming his obstacles, that's why he did all that mess and felt responsible for Majin Boo that's why he sacrificed himself, in the end he realized what he did was not the best. Now if you're talking about Vegeta holding a grudge about Goku not using SSJ3 on him, their later interactions prove it that was solved, even with Vegeta still motivated to surpass Goku someday as in the Kanzenban ending.
Goku didn't know Vegeta had SSJ2, his intent was to curbstomp him immediately.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Goku didn't know Vegeta had SSJ2, his intent was to curbstomp him immediately.
I know I said in another page:
Noah wrote:Goku was planning to defeat Vegeta with SSJ2, but seeing Vegeta having the same form and yet similar battle power, he knew it could take long but he was confident he could defeat him without risking himself.
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Lord Beerus wrote:SSJ3 is the worst transformation ever conceived.
Toriyama clearly agrees since Ultimate Gohan is pretty much an in-universe middle finger to it.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
Lord Beerus wrote:SSJ3 is the worst transformation ever conceived.
Aside from SS4, the Super Saiyan transformations in general suck.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
HeroR wrote:The characters in Super can work with Goku and they're treated like equals to him. Goku just being in the room doesn't take away from the character. In Z, the characters were so depended on Goku that they couldn't go an episode without mentioning him in some way even by hoping he will arrived, get better, training to get stronger, our last hope, being like him, ect. Goku was wanked to hell in Z, even when he wasn't in the room and everyone else was secondary to him. In fact, this was a major issue Goku had, which is why he didn't want to do anything in the Buu Saga.
Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
Lord Beerus wrote:SSJ3 is the worst transformation ever conceived.
Aside from SS4, the Super Saiyan transformations in general suck.
I still have a soft spot for the original Super Saiyan form and Super Saiyan Blue.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
Goku vs hit in the anime has terrible dialogue tbh
-piccolo was always a useless character since the namek saga,I don't know why everyone overreacted when piccolo job to frost, through he was always a jobber,the only time he was revelant was in the Saiyan arc, Heck dende is way more useful than him
Noah wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:SSJG is the worst transformation ever conceived.
Fixed that for you.
Agreed, SSJG had the worst design and just appeared for a couple of times in the series.
eh ssjg has a good design IMO, but I just hate on how it was obtained
ekrolo2 wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Vegeta shouldn't have obtained SSBlue.
But ninja! How will Goku's first, greatest and most badass rival ever compete with him if he doesn't have the newest Super Saiyan form!
well Vegeta got a overpowered ssj2 to compete with ssgss Goku, you know the form that is portrayed to op as hell in dragon Ball super,so that option b if you want Vegeta to compete with Goku
