Goku's speech to Krillin.

DaemonCorps · Post by **DaemonCorps** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:06 pm

Sebastian (SB) wrote:It was so full of the heroic cheese that FUNi loves to put on these characters & spoilers, it was utterly unforgiveable.

But would you call part of Goku's dub speech a spoiler if you were watching through the series and not knowing what would happen next? From a new fan's perspective, it seems like it would be virtually impossible for Vegeta to ever start fighting for good and that Goku's hope for him doing such was nothing but a pipe dream. Especially when Vegeta basically rips apart Goku's morals before he leaves, saying something along the lines of "staring into your eyes as I wipe the life out of you" when he comes back.

Sebastian (SB) · Post by **Sebastian (SB)** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:17 pm

Daemon Corps wrote:But would you call part of Goku's dub speech a spoiler if you were watching through the series and not knowing what would happen next? From a new fan's perspective, it seems like it would be virtually impossible for Vegeta to ever start fighting for good and that Goku's hope for him doing such was nothing but a pipe dream.

That's what they said about Ten, Piccolo, & possibly other characters, but hey it's all good. Even if it were for a new fan, it's still dumb to me.....oh wait I forgot... this for the 9 year olds that are born everyday, right?

That, and while I understand those of you who prefer how the speech in the original went, I think some of you guys have the mentality of "IT'S NOT THE ORIGINAL, THEREFORE = PHAIL" and yes, it's NOT the original, but that doesn't mean it's not something that exists and that people have a viewpoint on. Something that isn't necassarily exactly like the original isn't automatically "stupid" either.

Nah, I enjoyed watching the series in its dubbed Cell days believe it or not. It's just this scene that seems to "PHAIL" in my eyes, but I can understand it's something different. It's just too cliche for me. I dislike the whole heroic, "oh were gonna save the day, have Christian virtues, & completely forget that were characters lightly based on mythology of chinese culture" FUNi (lol pun) moments. If I wanted that, I'd turn to my friendly neighborhood Spider-Man or Superman perhaps. So sure we know there gonna save the day, but why add all that hunkajunk?

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:01 pm

At the time I first saw that... I don't think I really expected anything of it, having seen very little else of the series at the time (this was pre season3, and I don't think I'd seen the Ginyu episodes at the time). And... yeah... I really didn't expect Vegeta to join the good guys as more than a rogue element that happens to share a common enemy... which is probably why I was so easily convinced that Vegeta eventually returned to earth with his son Yohan and Trunk was some random force interested in the dragon balls...

ur... so yeah, didn't spoil anything for me.

As for melting the characters... umm... I don't know, at the time it didn't seem bad at all... but after seeing DB and thinking of what happened with TaoPaipai, General White... Hmm.

Dragon Ball Daisuki · Post by **Dragon Ball Daisuki** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:49 pm

No, I agree with most of you guys. I think it creates a more natural flow for the characterization of the series. We go from sparing Nappa and Vegeta, to the Freeza arc where we give the offer, but know when to say "enough". And then with later enemies, we don't even extend the offer because we know the recepients wouldn't benefit from our leniency/mercy.

Interestingly, that change in behavior seems to coincide with the advent of Super Saiya-jin. One more reason why things should have ended with Freeza. ;P

And yeah, since the series has been highlighted with themes of redemption since day one (with every major protagonist at one time being a heartless bastard, criminal, or panty-snatcher changed by Goku's pure character), I don't see the Saiya-jin arc speech as being a spoiler-riffic cop-out so much as the natural progression of the series... it's how things would have naturally played out, I think, if Toriyama knew where he was going.

Of course, like I said, the trade-off is no foreshadowing for the Super Saiya-jin concept. We need to know that something is changing with our so-called righteous hero! He's being overreached by his Saiya-jin nature to FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT!

But let's face it guys. If any studio made a responsible, self-respecting Dragon Ball film based on these stories... the dub script would win out. Imagine how much of a cop-out it would be if the hero let the villain go after two plus hours of vested interest. Now the big explain: because I want to fight him again. Just lacks that dramatic punch.

Sebastian (SB) · Post by **Sebastian (SB)** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:20 pm

Dragon Ball Daisuki wrote:And yeah, since the series has been highlighted with themes of redemption since day one (with every major protagonist at one time being a heartless bastard, criminal, or panty-snatcher changed by Goku's pure character), I don't see the Saiya-jin arc speech as being a spoiler-riffic cop-out so much as the natural progression of the series... it's how things would have naturally played out, I think, if Toriyama knew where he was going.

Yeah, that would make sense. Themes of redemption are pretty common prior Dragon Ball Z. However the speech stills stands as being out of character, even for Son Goku, & it's just plain cheese to me. I understand that it wouldn't even spoil much for some, but it's pretty horrible to me that even when someone as naive as Goku is realizing "Hey let's make him our friend too lawlz". I prefer the battle hungry, genius fighter, straight minded, & naive Goku.

Dragon Ball Daisuki wrote:But let's face it guys. If any studio made a responsible, self-respecting Dragon Ball film based on these stories... the dub script would win out. Imagine how much of a cop-out it would be if the hero let the villain go after two plus hours of vested interest. Now the big explain: because I want to fight him again. Just lacks that dramatic punch.

There would be no such thing as a self respecting Dragon Ball film if the dub script would ever win out in anything. Sure, self-respecting as a film & clinging on to the niche of the superhero film era.

Coola Yagami · Post by **Coola Yagami** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:05 am

yeah... I preffer Goku's original speech. It was just him. And even Kuririn understood and agreed Goku did deserve a lil selfish whim seeing as how he saved the world twice already and stuff.

And as for the Buu saga speech, Vegeta could have cared less about the human race except his own family, so that kinda cornball speech, while it sounded good, wouldn't have helped any. In the original, it was when Goku pointed out that Buu killed everyone even Bulma and Trunks that he reacted. Y'know... actually using the word kill instead of destroy or whatever.

Besides, you can't change a classic. You just gotta take it as it is. Look at how people reacted when they added changes to the original Star Wars Trilogy so it would fit in better with the Prequels. DBZ fans should act the same way. You can't change something made in the 80's/90's around for the hell of sounding 'better'.

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:09 am

Mind you, I don't think the bit in Movie 13, where Vegeta saves the office building, is necessarily out of character. "I'm too soft..." Heh.

I think he has a soft spot for Gohan and Goten too, though obviously not as big as one for Bulma and his son(s).

Ozma15 · Post by **Ozma15** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:13 am

Thanos6 wrote:I think he has a soft spot for Gohan and Goten too, though obviously not as big as one for Bulma and his son(s).

I've always gotten this impression, myself. I mean, you'd be hard-pressed to find Trunks without Goten, if you're going to parent one, you'll end up parenting the other whether you want to or not. Goku and Gohan seem to have a similar soft spot for Trunks(es). And Vegeta and Gohan have several moments where they display a certain regard for each other. Even Vegeta's 'you don't train enough' lines could have an almost parental vibe to them. Twisted, but that's what Goku seems to think is best for his sons: training.

Yeah, definitely prefer the simple-minded 'a good fight's all I need!' Goku. Part of his charm is that he never quite seems to grow up, I guess. He's still the same kid he was when he fought Yamucha and Oolong. His naivete, simplicity and purity of heart, plus his mercy, is what spurs the redemption theme. Not his heroics.

Dragon Ball Daisuki · Post by **Dragon Ball Daisuki** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:45 am

Fair enough.

I think both speeches work for different reasons, but I'm open-minded enough to admit that one isn't necessarily better than the other. One is far more dramatic, mind you, but 'dramatic' is not the same thing as 'better'.

There's little character development one way. That's how I see it. Meanwhile the alternative provides more characterization, but less in the way of interesting character flaws. I did like the bit about "I know it seems like justice, but it's not right. If you strike him down now, then you'll only show that you're no better than he is! It means they won, no matter what!"

I don't know. As lame as 'doing the right thing' is, Goku at the very least gives every major villain that "Get the hell off my planet" warning before he kicks ass... though he progressively becomes more "no-bullshit" each time. It's consistent.

So I wouldn't really say it was "out of character" so much as... out of nature, if that makes sense. Right now Goku isn't about forgiveness. He's becoming one competitive bastard! But I always appreciated that the pure aspect of the character never left us, for all the changes.

That's my argument. Counter-arguments?

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:38 am

Kirbopher wrote:originally, Toriyama was going to end Dragonball with the final fight against Freeza on the exploding Namek

I feel like I'm asking this for the 100th time, but... Source? ^^;

Any thoughts?

In my opinion, the original scene was pretty stupid, but then again, I think Gokû got worse and worse as a character as the series went on, soooo...

And based on what you're saying, I don't like the US dub either. There's good within everything? Piccolo was "shown the light"? It's not just cliché, it's also kinda sickening.

Sebastian (SB) · Post by **Sebastian (SB)** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:13 pm

There might be some mistakes, but I took the time go back, watch the scene, & write this down.

Daimao's Subs wrote: Kuririn: Die!!
Son Goku: Wait!
Kuririn: G-Goku?
Kuririn: Goku, was that you who just spoke into my mind?
Son Goku: Yeah, it was...I can't talk very loud, and all...K-Kuririn forgive me, but let him get away...
Kuririn: Let him what? A-are you crazy?
Son Goku: P-please... T-this is the only thing I'll ever ask for myself...
Kuririn: But Goku, this is the guy that killed our friends, and tried to kill everyone else in the world!
Kuririn: If we let him go now, he's certain to recover his strength, and come back here!
Son Goku: Y-you're probably right...
Kuririn: If you're thinking that maybe he'll have a change of heart, the way Piccolo did, then you're greatly mistaken! He's not that kind of guy!
Son Goku: I know that... and I know that Vegeta there has incredible strength...S-still... I ain't able to say this too well...but when I saw him nearly dead there, I thought to myself..."What a waste."
Kuririn: What a waste?
Son Goku: After training at Kaio-sama's place, I thought I had reached my pinnacle...But that Vegeta guy there has done far better than I have...It surprised me...To be honest, I was overwhelmed...But somewhere within my heart, I was happy, and excited...That must be because I'm a Saiyan too...Whenever I see an amazing guy like that, my heart leaps...
Kuririn: *readies his sword to kill Vegeta*
Son Goku: I want to train even more, and fight him again...
Kuririn: This is the guy who killed Yamucha-san, Tenshinhan, & Chaozu! (Technically one was killed by a Saibamen & the other two committed suicide, but all the same I suppose)
Son Goku: I know it's not the right thing to do...but please...grant me my selfish request...Let me have another chance to fight him!
Kuririn: All right. You've got the right to ask something for yourself. It's thanks to you that we even have the earth at all now, Goku. But remember Goku...Next time, you take him down with devastating power!
Son Goku: Yeah, I sure will...

Well, looks like Kirbopher has some reason. For the most part, it's pretty much Son Goku asking for his "selfish request". However the performances regarding Tanaka & Nozawa were well done none the less.
I especially enjoy the bond between Goku & Kuririn. They seem to trust each other very well. I also remember how Kaio-sama before mentioning that killing Vegeta "Wouldn't destroy the root of evil" though, he was in favor of it. There you have it, I admit it doesn't look good on paper when compared to some points of FUNi's script, but it seems like the seiyuu made it work anyway. With FUNi, I felt the exact opposite.

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:06 pm

Ozma15 wrote:
Thanos6 wrote:I think he has a soft spot for Gohan and Goten too, though obviously not as big as one for Bulma and his son(s).
I've always gotten this impression, myself. I mean, you'd be hard-pressed to find Trunks without Goten, if you're going to parent one, you'll end up parenting the other whether you want to or not. Goku and Gohan seem to have a similar soft spot for Trunks(es). And Vegeta and Gohan have several moments where they display a certain regard for each other. Even Vegeta's 'you don't train enough' lines could have an almost parental vibe to them. Twisted, but that's what Goku seems to think is best for his sons: training.

Plus look at, say, Vegeta when he first goes to fight Buu. He seems very pissed off that Buu killed Gohan.

Or the fact that Goten calls him "Uncle Vegeta." Regardless of how good friends Trunks and Goten were, I can't see Vegeta letting a low-level's son--especially Kakarot's son--get away with that unless he does care for him.

Or after Trunks beats Goten at the Budokai when he gives a very surprised Goku a smile and a pat on the back. "Don't feel too bad, your son did fine. Mine just came from better stock, is all." Vegeta is not usually Mr. Compliment.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:22 pm

Dragon Ball Daisuki wrote:I did like the bit about "I know it seems like justice, but it's not right. If you strike him down now, then you'll only show that you're no better than he is! It means they won, no matter what!"

That is 100% USDA-Approved bullshit. Unless Krillin starts slaughtering innocents for sport, he's nowhere near as bad as Vegeta.

Dragon Ball Daisuki · Post by **Dragon Ball Daisuki** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:23 pm

It's a moral dillemma. Taking another person's life does some pretty messed up things to you, psychologically. It's destroyed stronger men than Kuririn, I'm sure.

To me, what the Saiya-jin arc is most about thematically is ... confronting your worse nature. For Gohan, it was his timidness/dependency. For Piccolo, he had to let go of his demonic persona. And then we have these villains who are basically a cross between man and beast ... this is what the hero risks becoming. He has to live with the fact that he crushed his grampa. He has to live with the fact that he puts the earth at risk (it's what eventually leads to his decision to hang up the suit after the Cell arc, so to speak).

So defeating that breed of villain is more than just overpowering them... it has to be something of a spiritual defeat. Or someone like Goku, who is prone to his Saiya-jin nature, could risk becoming someone like Nappa. Kuririn poised to impale Vegeta has always been something of a darker moment for me... he's usually the comic relief. Not that I'm opposed to the concept; I like the idea of Kuririn being the guy who's willing to what needs to be done. But it is a thin line we walk.

Like I said, it's a moral issue.

Coola Yagami · Post by **Coola Yagami** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:20 pm

...not really considering Kuririn killed like 5 Saibamen with a multi-part blast attack, without a second thought..... and was practically at the battlefield to either kill or help the others kill Vegeta and Nappa to begin with.....

Most (not all) DB characters know they gotta kill the bad guys. It's if Kuririn ups and kills Bulma or something then he 'crosses the line'. I mean, noone batted an eye or gave Goku some kind of moral speech when he wiped out the entire Red Ribbon and killed the original Piccolo Daimaoh.... While Goku did show Freeza mercy, he didn't think twice about having Gohan waste Cell. It's just confusing I guess, depending on the character and situation... but Goku sure as hell would never pull the 'it would make you as evil as them' garbage if he did kill Vegeta.

Now that I think about it... Goku's so happy-go-lucky... if Kuririn did kill Vegeta he'd be like-

'Noooo Kuririn, how could you?? How I would have loved to have another fight against someone that powerful again!!! Now I'll never have the chance for a rematch..... Damn you Kuririn!!!

Kuririn- sorry Goku... but he was just too dangerous to leave alive!

Goku: Oh well. What's for lunch?"

Kuririn falls to the side*

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:24 pm

Coola Yagami wrote:...not really considering Kuririn killed like 5 Saibamen with a multi-part blast attack, without a second thought..... and was practically at the battlefield to either kill or help the others kill Vegeta and Nappa to begin with.....

Killing others in a head to head fight, where it's clear that they're trying to kill you, is quite different from killing a helpless man, bleeding as he crawls away.

It's the same thing with Freeza. Goku could have killed him as he lay helpless, but didn't.

Sebastian (SB) · Post by **Sebastian (SB)** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:55 pm

desirecampbell wrote:It's the same thing with Freeza. Goku could have killed him as he lay helpless, but didn't.

One of my favorite moments in the series.

Dragon Ball Daisuki · Post by **Dragon Ball Daisuki** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 1:01 am

This is the fundamental difference. What is it? What's that line Goku always mentions? It's always "they're no longer a threat" or "they can no longer defend themselves". Something to that effect.

On the other hand, the Saibaimen are less than human. But I digress.

Nevertheless, let me reiterate something. I'm not saying Kuririn beheads Veggie and suddenly he's drunk on violent sadism... that's ridiculous. But next time, let's say we're dealing with the Jinzouningen, enemies one notch less "guilty" than the Saiya-jins. It's going to be all that much easier to justify another kill "for the good of the earth" -- when indeed there may be alternative solutions.

That's the ideal, anyways. But as we see later with Freeza, it may not always be practical.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:07 am

Dragon Ball Daisuki wrote:Nevertheless, let me reiterate something. I'm not saying Kuririn beheads Veggie and suddenly he's drunk on violent sadism... that's ridiculous. But next time, let's say we're dealing with the Jinzouningen, enemies one notch less "guilty" than the Saiya-jins. It's going to be all that much easier to justify another kill "for the good of the earth" -- when indeed there may be alternative solutions.

Given that Krillin later chickens out on destroying #18, allowing Cell to become Perfect....

Kanzenshuu

Goku's speech to Krillin.

Re: Goku's speech to Krillin.

Re: Goku's speech to Krillin.

Re: Goku's speech to Krillin.