How Can Fans Compare This To DB/DBZ With A Straight Face?

[TheMikado]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXqonHhNe6o

If Supr can offer something is beautiful as this, I'd...cry.

Great googlymoogly, the feels. The transformation with tears in his eyes... it epitomized the fact that Gohan wasn't and never was a fighter and was merely out of necessarity. Honestly in universe the theme was Gohan isn't a fighter stop trying to make him be...

More importantly, the power up was only x2 after all that time they spent on the RoSAT and years of Gohan hidden potential foreshadowing and build up.
The only thing similar in Super is the Rageta transformation where Vegeta skips SSJ3 and goes 10% Beerus somehow after Bulma gets slapped..

[Asura]

I never said Goku did it as a joke, now did I?

Uh, yes actually you did. Word for word you said, and I quote, "He spent the night practicing his aim for the sake of a joke".

You're misunderstanding. BlueBasilisk is saying that the Mafuba itself served the purpose of a joke, not that Goku learned it for his newest stand-up special (or whatever you're thinking).

I'm not misunderstanding, that's exactly what I understood it as, that Goku did it as a joke for the audience, although not that literally the character himself was pulling a joke in-universe or something. Just that the show was using him as the joke, so Goku failing the Mafuba was apparently the joke.

The point is though, is that there is literally zero basis to say that Goku perfected the Mafuba, but they only showed him failing as a joke. That doesn't even begin to make any sort of sense.

[cheddarsword]

Overlooking a few smaller problems allows you to enjoy something you might otherwise not.

I wouldn't still be watching after 80+ episodes if I didn't enjoy it to some degree but that isn't going to stop me from wanting it to be better than it is.

ah. then i feel as if i owe you an apology. i misunderstood.

EDIT: also, just noticed your name. nice play on the god of war's name.

[sintzu]

ah. then i feel as if i owe you an apology. i misunderstood.

EDIT: also, just noticed your name. nice play on the god of war's name.

I'd have 20000 posts if I apologized for all the times I misunderstood or misjudged someone's opinion so don't worry about it.

I got it from this batman villain.



I had no idea it was based on anything like that. Anytime I try to use a name it's already taken so I remembered this forgotton game and villain.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

I feel the underlying question to ask is "Could we ever expect Super to be something that could single-handedly rope someone into Dragon Ball, on its own merits and dislodged from its 30-year history?"

The question is half rhetorical, as it almost certainly has. But I would think that fans of the original material already know in their guts that numerous story, legacy, and production-related reasons would keep it from matching it. Super is a bonus; enjoy it.

That concession does not magically bar anyone from comparing it to the prior material, though. It is not as if we've done the same to GT for 20 years despite its running under a comparably aimless format- and GT and Super approach the "Dragon Ball sequel story" so differently that you should compare them.

[Miracles]

Since Dragonball is about the action, naturally Super will fail in comparison.
The fight animation, the battle music, choreography and camera angels are just better written in Dragonball and DBZ.

[sintzu]

I feel the underlying question to ask is "Could we ever expect Super to be something that could single-handedly rope someone into Dragon Ball, on its own merits and dislodged from its 30-year history?"

Super is a bonus; enjoy it.

I think it could with really young kids.

I want to wait till Toriyama is completely done before I say which I think it is. Sometimes I think of his new stories as part of the original and sometimes as just a bonus to it.

[Gochu]

That's because you can't. You can't justify the writing, the production, the rehashed character designs, etc.

Well I can and here we go.

I'm sorry I ever doubted you.

You bring up good points but unlike Super, I don't think the original ever tried too hard to be funny for example, it felt natural while here it feels forced most of the time like with Goku.

Same thing with the production, the fights had animation issues for sure but they felt epic and every blow felt impactful which is something Super doesn't do that well.

Tbh, his points weren't good at all.

Goku in DB was a kid, so he was naturally immature and some of the things reflected that. As you said sintzu, it was a lot more organic. In Super characters act out of sync with how they are. So the humor feels forced, unnatural and its also mostly bad. We have seen from DBZ that Goku has matured with age like any normal human being. To then have him go backwards and start acting even stupider than when he was a kid, makes little sense. Heck, even in GT when Goku transformed back into a kid he still didn't act like he does in Super. In Super it's like Goku lost about 15 IQ points. Also, if you think humor is solely subjective then I encourage you to go listen to a really bad comedian at your local pub, and then compare that to Louis CK. Then run this test with 1000 people and see the results.

I will keep on arguing that no matter how much humility Vegeta has, he would never act like that around Beerus. Vegeta simply doesn't act like as a result of fear. I will have to rewatch the scene again (because it was a year ago when I saw it) in order to see how cowardly he actually acted. Although regardless, this is just one inconsistent scene in Super among many.

However since the end of the Champa arc we have had fairly consistent animation with errors and poor quality that crop up no more often then any other show.

Super has worse animation than DBZ, which is 30 years old. This is unacceptable. Super is the sequel to the sequel, everything should be refined at this point and better than ever. Yea, times are different and DBS is a cashgrab for merchandise apparently, but with all that money they should still have planned better. As fans we are allowed to be pissed off when they clearly don't care enough about us to put in the effort or preparation to make it look well? If we keep defending mediocrity then what reason is there for them to give us anything else in the future?

Designs in dragon ball have always been " drawn on a whim" once again thats how this show works. Also a core theme of Dragon Ball is "looks are not everything"

Little Tikes Robot man (magetta), mean winnie the pooh (botamo), and sideways football (zen-oh) are just really poor looking characters. I get that Toriyama likes to draw dorky looking characters that are really super strong, but these characters just look half-assed. Furthermore, at this stage in DB, and in a tournament of such strong fighters, having the characters look this bad not only make no sense but is kind of insulting to fans. Can you imagine if Frieza and Cell in DBZ were replaced with Magetta and Botamo? That would be a joke. But these characters are at their level. Also, it's not just like we had one dorky-strong-poorly drawn-unimaginative character, but the entire tournament roster was like this, besides Hitto (who was lame for other reasons).

Power Level Problem - Ok just to get it out of the way....F### POWER LEVELS! Sorry just needed to get that out, on with the show.
Now I know what this comes from and it aint the Trunks arc

The powerlevel/inconsistencies are everywhere in super.

Dragonball/Z had powerlevel inconsistencies but in super it's like they deliberately go looking for them. They also stack them. Take trunks arc: SSJ2 trunks keep up with SSJG (impossible), and even does better against Black goku than both Vegeta and Goku. Shortly after he learns the evil containment wave in 4-5 minutes from a cellphone video when it took goku all night with cueing from roshi. Shortly after that, out of nowhere, he spontaneously creates a spirit bomb sword, charges it in 1/50th of the time all other spirit bombs in the show have taken, and then somehow acquires a huge amount of energy from a planet that is practically devoid of life at this point. There isn't even any explanation for this like in GT where goku has to reach out to the entire universe because earth was too weak to take out Omega Shenron. To add to all of this, trunks is probably the most naturally unskilled of all the modern saiyans.

Aside from one or two battles sorry but a cannot agree with you here at all. I've found most of the battle in this series bar the RoF arc fights and Frosts fight with Goku to have been blood pumpingly entertaining

If that's the case then Z should make your head pop off

Bottom line is that fanboys seem to defend super either knowingly or unknowingly based on their love of the previous shows, justifying this and that for whatever reason. But Super should be treated as a separate entity. And I can guarantee you that if DB/Z/GT were all replaced with just Super, DB would have no where near the same type of following and effect on all of us.

[Freeza9000]

I compare Super to DB/Z and you can deal with it, its my opinion and I don't need to justify it to you or anyone else.

That's because you can't. You can't justify the writing, the production, the rehashed character designs, etc.

Rehashed character designs, which is something the original series also did at times....

[sintzu]

Tbh, his points weren't good at all.

Goku in DB was a kid, so he was naturally immature and some of the things reflected that.

As you said sintzu, it was a lot more organic. In Super characters act out of sync with how they are. So the humor feels forced, unnatural and its also mostly bad.

I will keep on arguing that no matter how much humility Vegeta has, he would never act like that around Beerus.

I may not agree with all of them but what he says is better than "the original was like this so deal with it". At least with his explanation I can see where he's coming from on certain things.

The was Goku is written can never be excused. it's simply bad writing.

It's a mixture of having bad writers and not enough to work with from Toriyama.

I'd defend that in the BOG movie only cause Vegeta and everyone points out how out of character he is, Beerus was close to destroying earth and both Goku and Beerus point out how he threw away his pride for everyone. It was written as a plot point. but in Super he acts like that all the time even when Beerus isn't doing anything. it's the same as what they're doing with Goku and his family, they take one character trait and blow it out of the water by having the characters act like it all the time.

Rehashed character designs, which is something the original series also did at times....

At times, not all the time.

In BOG we got a red Ssj which I was against but changed my mind cause Goku had his base hair and got thinner. It was also the 1st time we got a recolored Ssj.

Then RF came along and we got not one but 2 recolors, a Blue Ssj and a Golden Freeza. I might've let the Golden Freeza form go if we didn't get another recolored Ssj form.

After that we got a fat Beerus (He's a great character), a Freeza clone (wasted potential) AND another Saiyan (boring) who looked very similar to Tarble who looked like a kid adult Gohan.

Then we got an evil Goku (another great character).

Finally we have a female Broly and a Superhero type Beerus from universe 11 (I think that's where he's from).

[Freeza9000]

At times, not all the time.

Z did it pretty often too, heck probably as often as Super does. Bardock, Goku, and Goten look almost the same and Cell's forms are quite reminiscent of Freeza's forms with tails, ears, facial lines, etc. I can go on and on.

[ahill1]

How about you? What's doing it for you / not doing it for you?

As for what bothers me... well, I honestly don't feel I can go much in depth about it, I just don't feel the same anxiety, the same will to see the next episode as I did when Dragon Ball/Z was being broadcasted. One thing I liked about Dragon Ball was that it kept my interest, it kept me eager to see how they will develop the story and the same can't be said about Super. I think the music/soundtrack plays a hole on it as well (I enjoy more seeing the original Z than Kai, and basically the only difference would be the soundtrack, as well as the pacing), and some character personalities (mainly Goku, Piccolo and Vegeta [yeah, I feel even Vegeta isn't doing right characterization-wise, despite showing more mature features). I feel GT did better as per the last point (the characters' personalities being off).

I am sure power scaling isn't a problem, as much as I enjoy debating about it. Regarding DBZ I was presented firstly to the anime, and let's agree its power scaling was never perfect... didn't prevent me from enjoying the series one bit. So my main reason is just not "having the old Dragon Ball feeling", pretty much how like I found this new Star Wars movie got too much away from the classic one with its new animation effects and graphics.

As for what I like... well, it at least keeps me somewhat entertained (even more when I don't have to worry with the power consistency), so it kind fills its role as a serie.

I'd like to hear the podcasts, but I probably wouldn't understand too much. My English isn't perfected yet, at least to hearing to other people's conversation... which I still kind of suck lol.

[Overlord78]

Super as a product is not a good series at all, from the lazy writing to the outright terrible animation.

I also find it hilarious seeing people here recommend the manga instead. Just because it's slightly better than the anime doesn't make it a good product, it's still trash in my honest opinion and the OP would be better off not reading/watching the series at this point.

[VegettoEX]

I never seem to get a response from people who complain about how dumb the character designs are in Super compared to the final villain of the original manga / TV series being a chubby pink monster who talks like a child and was a direct rehash of a similar-looking final villain from Dr. Slump.

I mean, I'm not looking to or especially excited to perpetuate this "let's keep directly comparing Super with Z" conversation, but you seem so determined to do so while never acknowledging or successfully answering these types of direct, challenging questions.

Again, if you're not willing to have a real two-sided conversation, why should I continue bothering, either? We fundamentally disagree on some of these issues, and while I'm happy to concede to that fact and that your scaling doesn't work and affects your enjoyment... the strength debate folks never offer anything in return. It's always just "you're wrong" and "that's wrong" and "that's stupid". Right here in this thread. On Kanzenshuu. That really bums me out.

So yeah. Why should we bother? You're determined to be negative, have no fun, find no enjoyment, and offer nothing beyond negativity. I'm at a point where if I truly dislike something that much, I'm just not going to give it free rent in my head.

I should probably do that with these discussions entirely, but I own the damn place soooooooooo uuuuuuuuuugh can't win!

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Rehashed character designs, which is something the original series also did at times....

At times, not all the time.

In BOG we got a red Ssj which I was against but changed my mind cause Goku had his base hair and got thinner. It was also the 1st time we got a recolored Ssj.

Then RF came along and we got not one but 2 recolors, a Blue Ssj and a Golden Freeza. I might've let the Golden Freeza form go if we didn't get another recolored Ssj form.

After that we got a fat Beerus (He's a great character), a Freeza clone (wasted potential) AND another Saiyan (boring) who looked very similar to Tarble who looked like a kid adult Gohan.

Then we got an evil Goku (another great character).

Finally we have a female Broly and a Superhero type Beerus from universe 11 (I think that's where he's from).

Okay but we have had now 11 GoD's, 12 unique looking Angels and Kai's, what about the rest of the U6 team you conveniently ignored? Not to mention Toppo, Jiren, the Trio of Danger, the Copy Vegeta arc villains, Freeza's henchmen, Zamasu, Merged Zamasu, aliens Beerus fought in #2, Monoka, the rest of the 80 fighters we still do not know what they look like, we recently got a look at this Cyborg type character.

The examples you gave are fractions compared to the new designs we have had. Also Golden Freeza is not a compete recolour, it is designed differently from final form Freeza, also SSGSS resulted in new designed clothes for Goku and Vegeta as well as SSGSS having completely different aura, same with SSG different aura and changed clothes colour.

Not buying this "rehashed character designs" argument at all.

[Lord Frieza]

snip

Thanks for taking what I said on board. I don't expect you to agree with everything I say, I'm only stating my position on the matter, not trying to change your mind.

I read everything you said and I can easily see were your coming from and meet you half way, yes their is a bit of comedy were it dose not need to be and there are lack luster fights in the parts I mentioned. Hell there are a few of moments were the punchs don't have weight although for me I can only think of one or two moments. The good thing is we can at least understand each-other even if we dont agree. Other wise whats the point of talking at all right?

Snip

As for you if you don't find my point compelling and you have made it clear that nothing I say will change your mind well all I have to say sir/madam is..

[TheMikado]

Rehashed character designs, which is something the original series also did at times....

At times, not all the time.

In BOG we got a red Ssj which I was against but changed my mind cause Goku had his base hair and got thinner. It was also the 1st time we got a recolored Ssj.

Then RF came along and we got not one but 2 recolors, a Blue Ssj and a Golden Freeza. I might've let the Golden Freeza form go if we didn't get another recolored Ssj form.

After that we got a fat Beerus (He's a great character), a Freeza clone (wasted potential) AND another Saiyan (boring) who looked very similar to Tarble who looked like a kid adult Gohan.

Then we got an evil Goku (another great character).

Finally we have a female Broly and a Superhero type Beerus from universe 11 (I think that's where he's from).

Okay but we have had now 11 GoD's, 12 unique looking Angels and Kai's, what about the rest of the U6 team you conveniently ignored? Not to mention Toppo, Jiren, the Trio of Danger, the Copy Vegeta arc villains, Freeza's henchmen, Zamasu, Merged Zamasu, aliens Beerus fought in #2, Monoka, the rest of the 80 fighters we still do not know what they look like, we recently got a look at this Cyborg type character.

The examples you gave are fractions compared to the new designs we have had. Also Golden Freeza is not a compete recolour, it is designed differently from final form Freeza, also SSGSS resulted in new designed clothes for Goku and Vegeta as well as SSGSS having completely different aura, same with SSG different aura and changed clothes colour.

Not buying this "rehashed character designs" argument at all.

I never seem to get a response from people who complain about how dumb the character designs are in Super compared to the final villain of the original manga / TV series being a chubby pink monster who talks like a child and was a direct rehash of a similar-looking final villain from Dr. Slump.

I mean, I'm not looking to or especially excited to perpetuate this "let's keep directly comparing Super with Z" conversation, but you seem so determined to do so while never acknowledging or successfully answering these types of direct, challenging questions.

Again, if you're not willing to have a real two-sided conversation, why should I continue bothering, either? We fundamentally disagree on some of these issues, and while I'm happy to concede to that fact and that your scaling doesn't work and affects your enjoyment... the strength debate folks never offer anything in return. It's always just "you're wrong" and "that's wrong" and "that's stupid". Right here in this thread. On Kanzenshuu. That really bums me out.

So yeah. Why should we bother? You're determined to be negative, have no fun, find no enjoyment, and offer nothing beyond negativity. I'm at a point where if I truly dislike something that much, I'm just not going to give it free rent in my head.

I should probably do that with these discussions entirely, but I own the damn place soooooooooo uuuuuuuuuugh can't win!

I really do not have an opinion on the over all designs in Super. I think they are fine. However I can certainly see it from a other's perspective.

1)Main character design development: This isn't ignoring SSJ, but the battle armor transition of Vegeta and its evolution was fantastic. We also have Gohan's design evolution which was also great. Obviously Goku's didn't change much, but it was still there. In Super we have pretty much had one costume change for Goku and Vegeta. It would be nice to get a Gohan exclusive gear for Super... unless you count the track suit.. And let's face it, the main characters are going to be far more noticeable than secondary character designs.

2) This leads into the difference transformations/forms. For Gohan we have, young Gohan, Oozaru Gohan, Young Rage Gohan, Teen Gohan, SSJ Teen Gohan, FSSJ Teen Gohan, SSJ2 Gohan, Great Saiyan Man, Ultimate Gohan, etc. Same for Vegeta, and Goku has quite a few as well. Further they are all well defined visually.
In Super, there may be a Saiyan beyond base form, but we aren't really sure because there is no visually distinct design. Through the series the only new forms we got were SSJ Rage Vegeta, SSJ Rage Trunks, SSG, SSB, SSB x KK, SSR. When people look at Gohan's list of transformations versus Super, it can easily look like they are relying on Color and aura changes to create a "new form". Previously, with the exception of the rage forms, each form was basically foreshadowed to some extent and at least giving an explanation. Even something like Majin Vegeta was given its due as a form, I won't even talk about Golden Frieza... Especially seeing the stark contrast of all his three previous forms.. If you are going to bring a character like Frieza back from the dead AND give him a new transformation, you better make darn sure it was work seeing. If you can recolor your characters and a lot of people wouldn't notice the difference, I would say your are relying on recoloring rather than true design work.

So saying this, the combination of different forms with different clothing gave a visually varied enough landscape design wise for the main characters. Its, interesting because when we look at certain clothing the characters may be drawn in we associate it with different forms. For instance, seeing Gohan or Vegeta in there saiyan arc outfits wouldn't make us think SSJ. By contrast seeing Vegeta in his Buu arc clothing doesn't make us think about the androids. In Super, seeing Vegeta/Goku in their F gi doesn't really point to any specific experience. From a design stand point its less "ironic" meaning it has less meaning and representation as it can be applied to a variety of circumstances throughout their Super journey.

3) New races: Super does just fine on this. I really count the angels as only 1 new race, not a bunch of different designs as they seem to be just variants. I will give credit to Cabba however because his outfit was separate than traditional Saiyan garb. I cannot say I'm a fan of the new design direction in Super, but its fine.

Anyway, in my opinion, Super certainly falls short in designs for its main cast. The events of RoF in particular are a bit jarring seeing Gohan relaxed in a track suit following the events of BoGs. I really have no bones to pick here, but I definitely cannot say Super measures up to the level of main character designs that we saw previously and for some people this may be more noticeably to them than how many side characters got created.

[omaro34]

The original Dragonball is way, way funnier than Super. Mainly because of the PG or R rated jokes.

I'll never forget Kid Goku seeing a whole bunch of Roshi's magazines and seeing pictures of naked women and goes "Those girls must be poor, they can't afford any clothes".

Just the naivety of Kid Goku makes me miss him and it was hilarious.

[Asura]

The original Dragonball is way, way funnier than Super. Mainly because of the PG or R rated jokes.

I'll never forget Kid Goku seeing a whole bunch of Roshi's magazines and seeing pictures of naked women and goes "Those girls must be poor, they can't afford any clothes".

Just the naivety of Kid Goku makes me miss him and it was hilarious.

I absolutely agree with you on the subject of Goku. Super treats Goku as if he's Kid Goku. A lot of fans find no problem with this because hey, Kid Goku is still a Goku, it's totally still him, it's totally still his character traits.

But then you have to take into account that this series is supposed to take place after the Buu arc. It seems like the character of Goku during the Buu arc and the Goku of Super are two completely different people.

Goku should be evolving in his maturity (while still keeping some of his naive aspects) as time goes on, and we saw him grow more and more mature through every arc in Z. He should be continuing that trend, but for some reason Super decides to do the complete opposite and regress him.

It's sad because if you look at GT, one of the things they did perfectly was Goku's character. You get that naivety and goofiness in his kid form, and then you get a very protective and very mature Goku in his SSJ4 form. Super should be striving to move towards that, but sadly they aren't.

[Gochu]

I never seem to get a response from people who complain about how dumb the character designs are in Super compared to the final villain of the original manga / TV series being a chubby pink monster who talks like a child and was a direct rehash of a similar-looking final villain from Dr. Slump.

I mean, I'm not looking to or especially excited to perpetuate this "let's keep directly comparing Super with Z" conversation, but you seem so determined to do so while never acknowledging or successfully answering these types of direct, challenging questions.

Again, if you're not willing to have a real two-sided conversation, why should I continue bothering, either? We fundamentally disagree on some of these issues, and while I'm happy to concede to that fact and that your scaling doesn't work and affects your enjoyment... the strength debate folks never offer anything in return. It's always just "you're wrong" and "that's wrong" and "that's stupid". Right here in this thread. On Kanzenshuu. That really bums me out.

So yeah. Why should we bother? You're determined to be negative, have no fun, find no enjoyment, and offer nothing beyond negativity. I'm at a point where if I truly dislike something that much, I'm just not going to give it free rent in my head.

I should probably do that with these discussions entirely, but I own the damn place soooooooooo uuuuuuuuuugh can't win!

Not sure if this is directed at me or everyone. Anyway, I never really liked the Buu saga in DBZ since I first saw it when I was 12. Although Buu did have a lot of forms which made it a bit better than if we just had fat buu throughout that entire saga. I also never saw Dr. Slump. The other thing is that Buu is only 1 character in DBZ. Super has already had multiple characters that imo are much more disappointing than Buu ever was. You can't argue that the champa tournament roster, for example, was a huge disappointment, considering these are sort of like the other universe's counterparts to frieza, cell and majin buu.

I'm not trying to hate just for the sake of hating. But super is like having a girlfriend who's really hot that just let herself go. And you're like screaming at her to just try a bit harder, brush her teeth and put better clothes on and what not. Then you have a whole bunch of dudes (we'll say mostly redditors) telling her she looks good like a slob, and you don't get it -- perhaps this is a bad analogy.

Why should you bother? Well, idk that's up to you. I guess I'm trying to see if others feel the same way and how some people can possibly say it's better than DBZ. Maybe if there is enough people like me some real impact on the show can be had (although I doubt it, but just accepting everything will never cause any change).

This morning I turned on an episode of DBS and really tried to just enjoy it, gonna try ignoring all the inconsistency stacking and what not, then pretty much the first scene I see is:



Then remember:







This really bums me out.

For a positive thing, I like supers opening music.