How Can Fans Compare This To DB/DBZ With A Straight Face?

[Gochu]

I expected opinions on super to be similar to mine for long time fans, but I'm seeing that many see Super as comparable to DB/DBZ, and most say it's better than GT.

I took a break from it last year after starting the champa saga, but over the past few days I've watched up until the end of future trunks arc.

Here are some of my thoughts/opinions on what I dislike about Super overall:

Comedy: Many say that super tries to be funnier like dragonball, except it goes about it in the wrong way imo. Dragonball accentuated the humorous traits in characters to make it funnier. For example, Roshi was much more perverted in DB compared to DBZ. And goku was more naive and often did funny things because he didn't know any better. But they kept everything believable for the characters. You would never see someone serious like Tien or King piccolo do something that was really out of character in order to be funny. In contrast, DBS does this all the time. We have piccolo acting as a babysitter/martha stewart, vegeta wimpering and cowering in subservience during the first appearance of Beerus, Goku acting unbelievably stupid even for him, etc. Also, many of the jokes are remedial and sort of damage the reputation of certain characters. For example, calling upon the divine dragon by saying "lemon pleasy" at the end of the summoning speech, as well as the king of all saiyans being asked to get a fluffy pillow for Freeza. This stuff happens all of the time in Super.

Animation: The animation quality is still just absolutely terrible. There isn't much to be said here because it obvious. It's just sad that the animation from 30 years ago was much better. Some things that really bug me, though, are how they don't even put in effort to maintain consistency. For example, Krillin's height fluctuates a 1-2 feet given the episode or scene he's in. Sometimes his eye level is at 18's crotch (meaning he'd be about 3'6") and others he's a bit taller. In some scenes where he sits in a chair, his feet don't extend past the seat, which would mean he is about the size of a 4 year old. This happens with other characters too, such as Supreme Kai.

The other thing is the character design. There just isn't much creativity or effort going on anymore. The champa tournament roster consisted of characters that any of us at 10 years old could have drawn on a whim. Such as generic childish robot man, mean winnie the pooh, and weird looking vegeta jr guy. It was also sad that after all these years we now know the strongest guy in the entire reality -- the god of everything -- is little more than a football turned sideways with a smiley face on it.

Power Level Problems: The powerlevel problems are worse than ever this time around. Characters like Master Roshi taking on Raditz-level Frieza minions and characters base forms being overpowered, etc. If you haven't seen the trunks arc yet then ignore this next part: spoilers: [spoiler]For example, Trunks manages to keep up with Goku black in SSJ2 form despite Goku and Vegeta at SSJG having tons of trouble. No matter how much strength Trunks has, it's just simply impossible for him to match black goku in SSJ2 (absent maybe something like Tiens special move against Imperfect Cell). We all saw the difference between SSJ3 Goku and Beerus, then the improvement when Goku went SSJG against Beerus. The point is, the difference between SSJ2 - Black is too enormous.[/spoiler] They really should just alter the story and circumstances to make it believable, instead it's like they choose what they want to happen, and with what characters first, and then force them to fit into that role even if it doesn't make any sense.

Another thing is techniques being used without sticking to any of the rules. Again, spoilers in the trunks saga: [spoiler]We're supposed to believe that the evil containment wave created by master roshi's master (power level <200) will be able to contain not only a super powerful being, but a god? And then trunks learns it perfectly in 3-4 minutes while Bulma distracts Zamasu, when it just took goku assumably much, much longer with master roshi watching and commenting along the way? Furthermore, that the containment wave is supposed to kill the user after it works, which was overlooked here. And even if dying is from significant ki drain, surely the difference between SSJ2 and a god would warrant enough of a ki drain for death? Also, trunk's spirit sword not only came out of nowhere, but it gathered energy way too fast. It also wouldn't have even had enough energy given that the entire planet was pretty much devoid of life.[/spoiler]

Lackluster Battles: The battles don't really pump you up anymore. Considering how powerful the character now are, having battles comparable to DBZ only makes sense. Instead, everything feels rushed and underwhelming; very 1-dimensional. The ki blasts all kind of look the same; large beam or scatter shot. There's very little use of planning, charging, or manipulating the beam to get an edge on the enemy like in DBZ. The punches and kicks are underwhelming, mostly. A lot of the movements and animation on the battles are poor. There was a scene in particular where trunks was fighting Deborah in a flash back that really got to me; he literally did a slow left slash, right slash, and 360 degree spin that looked like something from the puppet show interpretation of the Cell games we got of how hercule beat cell in DBZ. Also, transformations are underwhelming now, often rushed and don't really have that powerful feel to them anymore.

These next points might be more subjective, but some other things that bug me are the lack of creativity for transformations. Like just adding blue hair or red hair (super saiyan rose, terrible name). Also, the fact that all the characters are significantly smaller now; I really liked how muscular the characters looked in DBZ. Furthermore, the women are all flat and boyish looking, and bulmas mother went from seemingly never ending busty milf to generic depends underwear commercial grandma. Growing up with roided looking monkey men and fertile female characters in a cartoon is healthy for young boys, imo.

Anyway, IMO the show doesn't really do anything at all right. When one thing gets a little better something else gets a little worse. The only way this show makes sense to me is to see it as a spin-off of DBZ or a parody, almost like a really good fan-made attempt that can't figure out what it's really going for. Someone mentioned to me once that his theory is that Toriyama is just trolling all of us at this point, and to me, it certainly seems like it.

Besides the fact that this is Dragonball (so we instantly like it to some extent), and comparing it to DB, DBZ, and even GT based on what those shows did well for the series, what is there to like about this show? And how can anyone with a straight face, in any way, compare it to the previous shows?

[Bullza]

I too absolutely detest the series because Bulma's 60+ year old mom isn't a busty animated milf but someone that more closely resembles what a grandma is like.

Not to mention the sheer lack of creativy in the forms that DBZ had such as Ascended Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan with slightly bigger muscles, Ultra Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan with noticeably bigger muscles and the creatively named Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan with slightly spikier hair.

They were so unique and creative that it never caused any confusion amongst fans which form was used in which particular scene at all.

[precita]

Super is fine. Stop taking the show so seriously.

[HybridSaiyan]

I highly suggest you read the manga if you're looking for fights that more or less rival that DBZ feel. The Super fights have gotten slightly better though and I hope they continue to improve. But I'm not holding my breath, usually quality drops then rises again. It's just a Super thing. You get use to it.

[VegettoEX]

Someone mentioned to me once that his theory is that Toriyama is just trolling all of us at this point, and to me, it certainly seems like it.

Toriyama has been "trolling" you since the original manga serialization. Every choice was an attempt to surprise and defy expectations. Killing certain characters, bringing in duos, making the small one the strong one, etc.

I feel like no-one puts this stuff in context. I mean, like, the final villain of DBZ is a rehash of a final villain from Dr. Slump: a giant pudgy "Majin". This one's pink. And talks like a child.

If you're willing to concede to any of that, I'm willing to have the larger conversation about what Super is doing right and what it's doing wrong.

[TheMathemagician]

The comedy can be hit or miss, but I feel like at it's best (like Goku and the tractor, Beerus slamming his head through a table) is really funny. The power scaling is very inconsistent, but stuff like this recent episode isn't really one of those problems imo. I would agree about the battles if I didn't find most of them since Goku vs. Hit to be decent to really good. I have no problem saying that I find Goku vs. Hit, Majin Boo vs. Basil, and Gohan vs. Lavender better than a good deal of fights in Z and OG DB. The animation and choreography has been getting better. Still needs a lot of improvement though. I can perfectly see how people can compare it to DB/DBZ

[SaiyanGod117]

Its decent, what Super realy lacks are climatic moments( they have this, but they're mostly lackluster and drab), character defining moments, authentic character-interactions, and rewatchability. A least in-comparison to Dragon Ball and Z, although it does seem to getting some of that back with this current arc.

[MainJPW]

Your complaint about the height inconsistencies aren't exclusive to Super, heights in Dragon Ball have never been consistent, especially when it comes to Kuririn's height.

[spoiler]







[/spoiler]

[Gochu]

Someone mentioned to me once that his theory is that Toriyama is just trolling all of us at this point, and to me, it certainly seems like it.

Toriyama has been "trolling" you since the original manga serialization. Every choice was an attempt to surprise and defy expectations. Killing certain characters, bringing in duos, making the small one the strong one, etc.

I feel like no-one puts this stuff in context. I mean, like, the final villain of DBZ is a rehash of a final villain from Dr. Slump: a giant pudgy "Majin". This one's pink. And talks like a child.

If you're willing to concede to any of that, I'm willing to have the larger conversation about what Super is doing right and what it's doing wrong.

If parts of DBZ lacked originality for you, it made up for it in other ways, like combat. And if DB lacked something for you it also made up for it in other ways. From what I've seen, Super doesn't seem to get anything right. Every part of it feels off, sloppy or watered-down.

I've laughed maybe 3x, but that hardly makes up for how much stupid I've had to see up until that point.

[Gochu]

Your complaint about the height inconsistencies aren't exclusive to Super, heights in Dragon Ball have never been consistent, especially when it comes to Kuririn's height.

[spoiler]







[/spoiler]

You're comparing the anime to the manga, this is two entirely different content delivery systems. In Super, Krillin's height can change during the same episode.

[MainJPW]

You're comparing the anime to the manga, this is two entirely different content delivery systems.

Those inconsistencies exist in both the anime and the manga.

In Super, Krillin's height can change during the same episode.

Yes, and the exact same thing occurred in the very first episode of Z:
Here Kuririn isn't shown to be more than a head shorter than Goku, than in the very next scene he's about the size of a toddler.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
Which applies to the same scene in the manga. What I'm trying to say is this isn't new to Super at all.

[DBZAOTA482]

I suggest you read the manga instead. Most of the problems you mentioned will go away.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I basically agree with the sentiment of this thread, but I think it may be taken too far. I'll just go through and pick out the parts that I disagree with.

Vegeta whimpering and cowering in subservience during the first appearance of Beerus

It made total sense in-context. Vegeta knew that he couldn't take Beerus in a fight, and he also knew that it was likely that everyone and everything he knew and loved could be (and most likely, would be) destroyed if he didn't cater to Beerus. Is your problem the situation of Vegeta being helpless or nervous? I honestly don't understand your point here.

...as well as the king of all saiyans being asked to get a fluffy pillow for Freeza.

Same situation as Vegeta, Could you go further into what your expectations are?

The animation quality is still just absolutely terrible. There isn't much to be said here because it obvious. It's just sad that the animation from 30 years ago was much better. Some things that really bug me, though, are how they don't even put in effort to maintain consistency. For example, Krillin's height fluctuates a 1-2 feet given the episode or scene he's in. Sometimes his eye level is at 18's crotch (meaning he'd be about 3'6") and others he's a bit taller. In some scenes where he sits in a chair, his feet don't extend past the seat, which would mean he is about the size of a 4 year old. This happens with other characters too, such as Supreme Kai.

The other thing is the character design. There just isn't much creativity or effort going on anymore. The champa tournament roster consisted of characters that any of us at 10 years old could have drawn on a whim. Such as generic childish robot man, mean winnie the pooh, and weird looking vegeta jr guy. It was also sad that after all these years we now know the strongest guy in the entire reality -- the god of everything -- is little more than a football turned sideways with a smiley face on it.

While I'm no fan of Super's look, the animation itself is absolutely fine at this point. What specifically don't you like about the movement?

Height inconsistencies are present in literally every hand-drawn story of any notable length. It may be more noticeable in Super due to its plain look and many episodes full of less-than impressive angles, but I haven't seen anything in Super that's half as jarring is Dende from the Boo Arc.

Toriyama's latest designs... I don't even know what to say. They're simple, they're fun... and that's bad? I don't think anything could make you happy here, Toriyama likes making his characters fun and often ironic. I guess you're probably someone who's more a fan of the beefy designs. It's not that I have a problem with you the preference, but there's nothing actually wrong with his modern drawings. If anything, they're the one of the most interesting parts of Super to me. (I'd be surprised if you could find a child who could draw and apply character designs as well as Toriyama does now, by the way.)

The ki blasts all kind of look the same; large beam or scatter shot ... The punches and kicks are underwhelming, mostly. A lot of the movements and animation on the battles are poor. There was a scene in particular where trunks was fighting Deborah in a flash back that really got to me; he literally did a slow left slash, right slash, and 360 degree spin that looked like something from the puppet show interpretation of the Cell games we got of how hercule beat cell in DBZ.

Obviously an exaggeration, but even if I interpret what you're saying as reasonable, it only applies to the minor conflicts from the FT Arc and on. The fights in Episodes 56, 57, 61, 63, (arguably) 65, and 66 have cuts that are superior to anything you'll find in the old material. Given the crippled state that Super was forced into at the beginning of its production, the fact that it's now passable as a decent, if lackluster show now is impressive.

Also, transformations are underwhelming now, often rushed and don't really have that powerful feel to them anymore.

That's because things have changed. Firstly, Goku and Vegeta's newest transformations emphasize compression, absolute control of their Chi. Secondly, since Super doesn't have to slowly trail behind a manga counterpart (along with Toriyama's stories being fairly simple), the pace ends up much faster. Transformations are far more common as a result, and strong emphasis can't be put on all of them. From the FT Arc and on, all of the appropriate ones are given plenty of attention, it really isn't a problem.

Besides the fact that this is Dragonball (so we instantly like it to some extent), and comparing it to DB, DBZ, and even GT based on what those shows did well for the series, what is there to like about this show? And how can anyone with a straight face, in any way, compare it to the previous shows?

It's a continuation of the original story it's the same genre. While it doesn't execute them as well, the principles of the show haven't changed much. There are new stories that most people enjoy.

Why does anyone compare them? Because there are countless bases for comparison. The same reason anyone compares anything.

[Gochu]

You're comparing the anime to the manga, this is two entirely different content delivery systems.

Those inconsistencies exist in both the anime and the manga.

In Super, Krillin's height can change during the same episode.

Yes, and the exact same thing occurred in the very first episode of Z:
Here Kuririn isn't shown to be more than a head shorter than Goku, than in the very next scene he's about the size of a toddler.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
Which applies to the same scene in the manga. What I'm trying to say is this isn't new to Super at all.

The difference is that angle was probably a conscious effort for dramatic effect -- to emphasize the big bad Raditz. Super just comes off as sloppy animation. In many scenes krillin literally looks like a baby.

[BlueBasilisk]

Another thing is techniques being used without sticking to any of the rules. Again, spoilers in the trunks saga: [spoiler]We're supposed to believe that the evil containment wave created by master roshi's master (power level <200) will be able to contain not only a super powerful being, but a god? And then trunks learns it perfectly in 3-4 minutes while Bulma distracts Zamasu, when it just took goku assumably much, much longer with master roshi watching and commenting along the way? Furthermore, that the containment wave is supposed to kill the user after it works, which was overlooked here. And even if dying is from significant ki drain, surely the difference between SSJ2 and a god would warrant enough of a ki drain for death? Also, trunk's spirit sword not only came out of nowhere, but it gathered energy way too fast. It also wouldn't have even had enough energy given that the entire planet was pretty much devoid of life.[/spoiler]

I don't get why people get so bent out of shape about this when in Dragon Ball, Kid Goku learned the Kamehameha, his signature technique and an amazing ability in-universe at the time that took Roshi 50 years to master, after seeing Roshi do it once. No instruction or anything. He just tried it once and it worked perfectly. Similarly, he learned the Mafuba with no trouble at all. Could pull the technique off the first time he tried it. He spent the night practicing his aim for the sake of a joke. Him harassing Turtle like that was funny. And it's not like Trunks figured it out on his own. He even tried that and made an ass of himself until Bulma remembered that she had a video of Piccolo (a teacher) demonstrating and explaining how it worked. The only difference is that he had someone hold the jar when he did it and stuck the landing.

Dragon Ball is no stranger to pulling new things out of its back door for the sake of narrative convenience. I maintain that the mother of all these is Cell's return after his self-destruction, which flies in the face of everything that had been established about him prior. Or Super Saiyan 3, which came right out of nowhere in the middle of the arc and was only foreshadowed seconds before it was revealed. Or anything that Buu does starting with the reveal of the Skinny Buu.

The difference is that angle was probably a conscious effort for dramatic effect -- to emphasize the big bad Raditz. Super just comes off as sloppy animation. In many scenes krillin literally looks like a baby.

Heights are all over the place in DB and Z, especially in the anime versions, and Krillin and Vegeta are the worst offenders. In fact, for that famous cross-counter in the Majin Vegeta fight to happen, they have to fudge the length of Vegeta's arm and make it stretch so he can punch Goku in the face due to the height difference.

[Luso Saiyan]

I expected opinions on super to be similar to mine for long time fans,

Why? What's wrong with them being different?

All I see here is: "I didn't like X. How is it possible that people can like X?"

[TheMikado]

Besides the fact that this is Dragonball (so we instantly like it to some extent), and comparing it to DB, DBZ, and even GT based on what those shows did well for the series, what is there to like about this show? And how can anyone with a straight face, in any way, compare it to the previous shows?

Hi there, I actually joined these forums around the same time as you. I guess I should first talk about my Dragonball journey.

I watched the original Funimation run in the US when it first aired and fell in love, I even watched the original Dragonball when it aired briefly in the US. I had never read the manga except for a couple of pages here and there. I heard about BoGs long ago but upon hearing about the SSG form I lost interest. Next I heard about RoF, Frieza was actually the villain I despised the most and seeing yet another saiyan recolor and this time a Frieza recolor really put me off. I had briefly heard about GT hate on the internet and the idea of "canon" but never realized how deeply it ran in the fandom, but I absolutely loved that series. I had watched most of DBZ in english and it was what made me a fan of anime to begin with. Anyway after the announcement of Super, I was incredibly excited. I decided to tune in because I couldn't wait. I began watching the streams and getting translations later, even going back and rewatching where possible. I soon began to hate Super... for many of the reasons you listed. I decided that I must have missed something, so I went back and watched the movies..better but still not a fan... Ok, maybe I'm definitely missing something, so I stumbled my way in here to this forum. I began reading, and watching as much as I could, I learned about "canon" and "filler" and all kinds of fan crap that made things legitimate. I began to get the impression that Toriyama himself was God and infallible... After a while I began to despise the franchise. If Super was what Dragonball was really supposed to be I wanted no parts of it anymore. I was done and finished. I would enjoy some of the old work, but I could feel my love disappearing and my disappointment taking over.

Then I discovered the Super manga, and my love was restored. I saw the Goku and Vegeta I knew and loved again. I found the lore and exposition I needed to enjoy the series. I realized a lot in that moment. For me, the anime does not represent my Dragonball experience. I imagine for a large international audience it wouldn't either. Dragon ball's international success as one of the most profitable animes of all time doesn't rest solely on the backs of its hardcore fans. It rests on the ability for it to reach wide audiences and translate to different cultures.

Modern Dragonball, and specific Super, does not have this ability in my opinion. Time will ultimately tell, however my prediction is that as US audiences see more and more of Super through the new Toonami dub, their love will lessen. They will question things. They will come to this forum just like you and I did looking for answers, and they will be met with diehard fans who seem to imply the problem isn't the show, its us for not "getting it". Because that is certainly the way to bring people around to see your point of view...

The reality is Super is just OK. Its not even good, and for me personally, not worth watching half the time. I agree it doesn't measure up to the original run or even GT.
I watched the Buu kai and Super dub back to back on Toonami and it couldn't be more obvious.

In Super in, watching Goku count to 6 on his fingers, questions if 6 is one more than 5, and doesn't know 1 million is a bigger number than 100,000...
In Buu kai, we see Goku play detective but questioning things about Supreme kai with Piccolo, detecting things are wrong well before the others, piecing together that Vegeta allowed himself to be possessed on purpose. The scene that jumped out at me the most is when they are headed to the tournament and the guide says the match starts at 1:40. Without missing a beat or using his fingers Goku replies, that's an odd time, that gives us 20 mins.

I've seen people on here try to defend Super Goku by saying he has no sense of math or counting so it makes sense for him to count on his fingers. Yet we see Buu Kai Goku literally seemlessly take an abstract concept of time and apply basic mathematics to it. For me there is no excuse for this, but you will hear other state Goku has always been this way. No he hasn't. My advice to you is don't believe the lies. Your Goku, your Dragonball that you know was different, is different. Don't let anyone tell you that the experience you had wasn't valid and true. I almost allowed that to happen to me here and it almost cost me my love for the entire franchise for it.

[Khin]

I can throw a bunch things against Super as to why I think it’s inferior to Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z; power inconsistencies or any power level-type nonsense is so not one of them. I don’t see how Trunks keeping up with future Zamasu and Black is any worse than Super Saiyan Vegeta beating Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, base Goku fighting on par with a guy who effortlessly defeated Cell, etc.

Furthermore, your complaint about Kame-sennin taking out Freeza’s lackeys doesn’t make sense, because there are absolutely nothing that says Freeza’s soldiers that fought him are Raditz-tier. In fact, where were said that those goons are a bunch of weak second-rate soldiers, which would mean they are probably even weaker than those soldiers on Namek.

Dragon Ball Z is just as (if not more) worse than Super when it comes to power inconsistencies. At the very least, Super still rightfully showed who is strong than who -- I.e, Trunks did a decent job against Zamasu and Black, but he still loses when he should, not like in Z where Vegeta is now suddenly beating Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks when he shouldn’t be.

That said, these types of things doesn’t really affect my overall enjoyment of the show, especially if the scene is done very well. I have been watching countless episodes of Dragon Ball Z ever since I was little, and I don’t think I was ever bothered by its power-related inconsistencies. I feel the same for Super (though admittedly at one point, I got influenced by internet forums and became too obsessed with power-related stuff).

[sintzu]

The reason Super is the way it is is because it's only aimed at children (it airs at 9:00 AM on Sunday's) and is made to sell merchandise.

DB & Z on the other hand were also aimed at children but unlike Super, they aired on Wednesday evenings at 7:00 PM so Toei had to put more effort into them to keep potential older viewers interested and unlike Super, it was made to sell the manga so the writing was handled a lot better cause they were selling a story, not toys.

If you're interested in the basic story but don't like how the anime does it then read the manga, it's miles ahead of the anime.

[coola]

Personally, i like GT more than Super, at least GT moved story further, yes, it was pretty bad at times, but at least it felt like continuation and conclusion, Super often feel like it exist just to give fans ideas they always wanted (Freeza coming back? Saw it in countless fanfics in early 2000's, Goku vs Copy Vegeta was copy of their first fight, even surroundings and fighting poses are similar Black and Zamasu? We already had evil Kaioshin and evil Goku in Dragon Ball AF) sadly, it happened at cost of story.