How Can Fans Compare This To DB/DBZ With A Straight Face?

[VegettoEX]

Your girlfriend analogy is weird and childish.

I can very much argue about Champa's team being super cool through and through, defying expectations about who they would end up being and what their contributions would be, regardless of and separate from their designs. Quite frankly, I find Hit the least interesting (both in design and in execution), and he's the one everyone else seems to love. I think Frost was clearly/obviously the least-interesting design-wise, but I loved to hate what he wound up being and how they played us for fools on a few different levels.

I don't understand what on Earth you're getting at with those comparison images. People say a picture is worth a thousand words, but I kinda wish I got some words here!

Mainly, I take more issue than anything else with the basic premise of the thread: how can I compare with a straight face? You came wandering in with your mind made up. You never wanted conversation; you wanted validation.

[perucho1990]

I absolutely agree with you on the subject of Goku. Super treats Goku as if he's Kid Goku. A lot of fans find no problem with this because hey, Kid Goku is still a Goku, it's totally still him, it's totally still his character traits.

But then you have to take into account that this series is supposed to take place after the Buu arc. It seems like the character of Goku during the Buu arc and the Goku of Super are two completely different people.

Goku should be evolving in his maturity (while still keeping some of his naive aspects) as time goes on, and we saw him grow more and more mature through every arc in Z. He should be continuing that trend, but for some reason Super decides to do the complete opposite and regress him.

It's sad because if you look at GT, one of the things they did perfectly was Goku's character. You get that naivety and goofiness in his kid form, and then you get a very protective and very mature Goku in his SSJ4 form. Super should be striving to move towards that, but sadly they aren't.

I respectfully disagree, GT Goku is probably one of the worst characters in Shounen history, I find his character more unbearable than Natsu, Ichigo, Tsuna, etc

The only thing I would have GT being superior to Super is the art being more consistent and the OST.

[Asura]

I absolutely agree with you on the subject of Goku. Super treats Goku as if he's Kid Goku. A lot of fans find no problem with this because hey, Kid Goku is still a Goku, it's totally still him, it's totally still his character traits.

But then you have to take into account that this series is supposed to take place after the Buu arc. It seems like the character of Goku during the Buu arc and the Goku of Super are two completely different people.

Goku should be evolving in his maturity (while still keeping some of his naive aspects) as time goes on, and we saw him grow more and more mature through every arc in Z. He should be continuing that trend, but for some reason Super decides to do the complete opposite and regress him.

It's sad because if you look at GT, one of the things they did perfectly was Goku's character. You get that naivety and goofiness in his kid form, and then you get a very protective and very mature Goku in his SSJ4 form. Super should be striving to move towards that, but sadly they aren't.

I respectfully disagree, GT Goku is probably one of the worst characters in Shounen history, I find his character more unbearable than Natsu, Ichigo, Tsuna, etc

The only thing I would have GT being superior to Super is the art being more consistent and the OST.

One of the worst characters in Shounen history? Damn, that's brutal. Why do you feel that way? To me, GT Goku was the best parts of Kid Goku and Cell/Buu saga Goku combined. I'm still not sure I really like the idea of him being a kid again, but in terms of personality and mannerisms, I think GT Goku is a very logical next step in Goku's evolution as a person. He's older, and a bit more wiser and mature.

[Dbzfan94]

I can throw a bunch things against Super as to why I think it’s inferior to Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z; power inconsistencies or any power level-type nonsense is so not one of them. I don’t see how Trunks keeping up with future Zamasu and Black is any worse than Super Saiyan Vegeta beating Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, base Goku fighting on par with a guy who effortlessly defeated Cell, etc.

Both of those are filler, but I see your point.

[Lord Beerus]

Super has done a lot of shit wrong and I've gone in into detailed rants in the past about its shortcomings as well as providing a laundry list of changes I would have made with the show since its inception. But it's still a very entertaining show to varying degrees, despite its flaws, to many people, myself included. I don't really understand why you would take so issue when people compare Super to DB, Z or GT. Super certainly has some low points, but it's high points are arguably as good as the high points of any the previous Dragon Ball series. It's all a matter of perspective. There isn't one universal grading curve for which all of the Dragon Ball animated TV show are judged and critiqued on.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Bottom line is that fanboys seem to defend super either knowingly or unknowingly based on their love of the previous shows, justifying this and that for whatever reason. But Super should be treated as a separate entity. And I can guarantee you that if DB/Z/GT were all replaced with just Super, DB would have no where near the same type of following and effect on all of us.

Let us not throw the fanboy term around, we are all fans here no need to separate people out. Anyway, you seem to be missing the point you even mention it yourself, Super is a sequel series, it requires previous knowledge therefore it absolutely impossible to view Super as a separate entity, Jaco Manga is an example of treating something as a separate entity, you do not have to have any prior knowledge of the DB series to enjoy and understand it.

[FortuneSSJ]

Bottom line is that fanboys seem to defend super either knowingly or unknowingly based on their love of the previous shows, justifying this and that for whatever reason. But Super should be treated as a separate entity. And I can guarantee you that if DB/Z/GT were all replaced with just Super, DB would have no where near the same type of following and effect on all of us.

You can't guarantee anything, because there's no way to prove that outside of your little bubble.
The only conclusion we can take from the last 2 decades is that this franchise would hardly be anything without the DBZ part.

[Yomi]

This morning I turned on an episode of DBS and really tried to just enjoy it, gonna try ignoring all the inconsistency stacking and what not, then pretty much the first scene I see is:

[spoiler]

Then remember:







This really bums me out.[/spoiler]

For a positive thing, I like supers opening music.

I don't think Super is for you, if you're so nitpicky that you just press play, and instantly detest the opening shot,
because the medium shot, cropped goku pics you found on the front page of google looks better than it.

[spoiler][/spoiler]
Do you think ugly frames don't exist in Z?
I mean come on, comparing the first frame you see to google images is really petty.

[perucho1990]

One of the worst characters in Shounen history? Damn, that's brutal. Why do you feel that way? To me, GT Goku was the best parts of Kid Goku and Cell/Buu saga Goku combined. I'm still not sure I really like the idea of him being a kid again, but in terms of personality and mannerisms, I think GT Goku is a very logical next step in Goku's evolution as a person. He's older, and a bit more wiser and mature.

I dislike GT Goku because he was really unbearable, while he wasnt "retarded", he was very annoying acting all cocky/arrogant and wanting to do everything himself.

His only good fight was vs Ledgic, his fight vs Bebi was alright.

Idk but I'm the only one but his fight vs Cell and Frieza was miles worse than vs Super 17.

It was one of the worst fights I've ever seen in my life.

[Asura]

while he wasnt "retarded", he was very annoying acting all cocky/arrogant and wanting to do everything himself.

But hasn't that been Goku's entire character in DB and Z?

[perucho1990]

But hasn't that been Goku's entire character in DB and Z?

I dont remember Goku acting smug all the time he was facing the antagonists in DB.

His smugness in GT reminds me of Natsu

[Gochu]

This morning I turned on an episode of DBS and really tried to just enjoy it, gonna try ignoring all the inconsistency stacking and what not, then pretty much the first scene I see is:

[spoiler]

Then remember:







This really bums me out.[/spoiler]

For a positive thing, I like supers opening music.

I don't think Super is for you, if you're so nitpicky that you just press play, and instantly detest the opening shot,
because the medium shot, cropped goku pics you found on the front page of google looks better than it.

[spoiler][/spoiler]
Do you think ugly frames don't exist in Z?
I mean come on, comparing the first frame you see to google images is really petty.

I have been watching Z continually every 2-3 years since I was 8. I have never noticed the majority of those poorly animated frames except the bottom right. It's not that they don't exist, it's that they are either infrequent or done in a way that doesn't draw much attention to them.

In contrast, in Super it seems like every 1/4 of what you see is poorly animated. If you read the rest of thread you'll see it's not pettiness.

[Gochu]

I can throw a bunch things against Super as to why I think it’s inferior to Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z; power inconsistencies or any power level-type nonsense is so not one of them. I don’t see how Trunks keeping up with future Zamasu and Black is any worse than Super Saiyan Vegeta beating Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, base Goku fighting on par with a guy who effortlessly defeated Cell, etc.

Zamasu and black are both highly skilled. Zamasu was said to be a genius and was extremely strong for a kai if you compare him to Supreme kai. Zamasu also had immortality, while Black had Goku's body and "unlimited potential". On the other hand, trunks has always been the least naturally skilled saiyan. I consider him probably worse than Goten considering how even with a years advantage in age, and being stronger, he just barely beat goten in the worlds martial arts tournament by cheating.

base Goku fighting on par with a guy who effortlessly defeated Cell

Unless I am missing something, Pikkon never defeated Cell. He simply used his incredibly strong attack to knock Cell into the blood water in Hell. The entire encounter was literally a 20 second scene, and it was just a little side mission from the main plot at that time. Also, do we even know if Hell has a power reduction effect on its inhabitants?

Again, as I said in other posts, Super has much greater power inconsistencies, more often, during the main plot/non-filler highlights of arc, contradicts itself immediately (ex: Black's endless potential for power growth that seemingly stops the second it is mentioned), and stacks them. It is not one thing it does wrong but the sum of all it's wrongs that makes it fall so short compared to its predecessors.

Super Saiyan Vegeta beating Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks

I don't recall this happening in Z or any of the movies. I think you are referring to DBS? In which case you are only helping my side of the argument.

[Gochu]

Your girlfriend analogy is weird and childish.

I can very much argue about Champa's team being super cool through and through, defying expectations about who they would end up being and what their contributions would be, regardless of and separate from their designs. Quite frankly, I find Hit the least interesting (both in design and in execution), and he's the one everyone else seems to love. I think Frost was clearly/obviously the least-interesting design-wise, but I loved to hate what he wound up being and how they played us for fools on a few different levels.

I don't understand what on Earth you're getting at with those comparison images. People say a picture is worth a thousand words, but I kinda wish I got some words here!

Mainly, I take more issue than anything else with the basic premise of the thread: how can I compare with a straight face? You came wandering in with your mind made up. You never wanted conversation; you wanted validation.

So we agree on Hit. In regards, to the characters being exceptional absent their designs: I was mostly arguing about these character due to the way they were animated, and not based on their actions/personality. Although I do not remember any of these characters being anything great; maybe it was overshadowed by all of the other things going wrong. It's been a year, so I will have to re-watch that arc to comment on this further to get more specific.

You are partially right about the validation. But so what? There isn't a rulebook to forum thread conversations. I wanted real, long-term fans to tell me how they find Super potentially on par with DB/Z. And some of the comments have been good, while other are basically justifying Super's problems by pointing out similar issues in DBZ, yet ignoring the fact that those issues are much much more prevalent in DBS.

What exactly are you wanting me to say?

[Khin]

Zamasu and black are both highly skilled. Zamasu was said to be a genius and was extremely strong for a kai if you compare him to Supreme kai. Zamasu also had immortality, while Black had Goku's body and "unlimited potential". On the other hand, trunks has always been the least naturally skilled saiyan. I consider him probably worse than Goten considering how even with a years advantage in age, and being stronger, he just barely beat goten in the worlds martial arts tournament by cheating.

Trunks is also stronger than Shin, so I don’t think that Zamasu being stronger than him means anything. Zamasu’s immortality only gained him the ability to not die; it did not make him stronger or anything. In fact, it was said that him being immortal causes him to become arrogant and let his guard down, which is (possibly) part of the reason why Trunks was able to land good hits on him.

Basing future Trunks’ fighting skills to a fight between 6-7 year old Trunks and Goten is honestly quite silly. Future Trunks has a lot of fighting experience; basically fought multiple strong opponents, and is a 33 year old man who spent nearly his whole life training. Him and present Trunks lived totally different lives.

Unless I am missing something, Pikkon never defeated Cell. He simply used his incredibly strong attack to knock Cell into the blood water in Hell. The entire encounter was literally a 20 second scene, and it was just a little side mission from the main plot at that time. Also, do we even know if Hell has a power reduction effect on its inhabitants?

The thing about Paikuhan using a special attack to two-shot Cell is just a fan theory that stemmed from a certain video game. While I think it’s fine if you believe to the interpretation, nothing of the sort was ever implied or stated in the animated series.

I think if the power of the evil people somehow become reduced, Goku wouldn’t worry and treat Cell as a threat, and certainly wouldn’t need to power-up to beat the Ginyu Force.

The entire point of the side mission is to show how powerful Paikuhan is, so treating it as something trivial that can be ignored doesn’t make sense, especially since Paikuhan’s power in his weighted cloths still played a role in the actual final battle in the tournament.

Again, as I said in other posts, Super has much greater power inconsistencies, more often, during the main plot/non-filler highlights of arc, contradicts itself immediately (ex: Black's endless potential for power growth that seemingly stops the second it is mentioned), and stacks them. It is not one thing it does wrong but the sum of all it's wrongs that makes it fall so short compared to its predecessors.

If we’re strictly talking about main plot (strength-related) inconsistencies, the first that comes to mind is the whole Pure Boo > all previous Boo stuff in the Majin Boo arc. The same arc also created some inconsistencies that even now, people still debate -- like the whole Ultimate Gohan < Super Saiyan 3 Goku thing.

I don't recall this happening in Z or any of the movies. I think you are referring to DBS? In which case you are only helping my side of the argument.

When Goku and Vegeta are inside Evil Boo’s body and reached his head part, they fought clones of Gotenks, Piccolo, and Gohan that originated from Boo’s mind.

Goku stated that the clones are as strong as the original ones, yet Super Saiyan Vegeta still defeated Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Piccolo, while Super Saiyan Goku fought on par with Ultimate Gohan.

[GodVegetto91]

You know what the problem was before Super came around?

Keeping a consistent noticable difference between SSJ1 and SSJ2.

Is it so hard to add a few sparks to it?
Certainly it can't be THAT hard.. right Toei?

[Yomi]

I have been watching Z continually every 2-3 years since I was 8. I have never noticed the majority of those poorly animated frames except the bottom right. It's not that they don't exist, it's that they are either infrequent or done in a way that doesn't draw much attention to them.

In contrast, in Super it seems like every 1/4 of what you see is poorly animated. If you read the rest of thread you'll see it's not pettiness.

I also have watched Dragon Ball/Z several times, and sometimes entire episodes are really ugly. I had forgotten the name of the studio that produced those certain episodes, but they were always subpar.
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]
I just think it's very dishonest and bias to believe that when Z looked bad it was few and far between; because if you watch the entire thing with the
DBS HYPER DISSECTION OF EVERY FRAME EYE instead of actually being invested, you'll notice it too.

I'm sure you've seen these "comparison" images floating around, which usually compare a keyframe from a DBZ movie to a inbetween frame from DBS.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Well you can easily do the same thing in reverse (well DBS isn't a movie)
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

It's just a matter of perspective really.

[buutenks]

TBH, for me i love DBZ for those epic moments. Like Goku going ssj, Vegeta beating up cell, kid buu vs Goku, Goku and Piccolo vs Raditz, Gohan vs Cell etc. If id have to actually rewatch the old series from the begging to end, id proly go insane lol, way to much filler. I guess tho, if id have to rewatch DB Kai i wouldnt mind.

I also love Super for those epic moments. Ep 11, ep27,kk Goku vs Hit, Magetta vs Vegeta, Vegeta showing ssj blue to Cabba, Black Goku(all scenes with him), Monster Zamasu vs Vegetto, trunks going berserk and transforming into Super Trunks, ssj3 Goku blocking Trunks' sword with his fingers and one shotting him, the kais and GoDs crapping their pans when they saw Goku go ssj blue, Zamasu taking over the universe, etc. If id have to go through the first 27 ep, id proly get really really angry, but if id start at the champa arc id proly enjoy it again, since clearly the BoG and especially RoF arcs were inferior to the movies and i dont understand why they dragged them on for 27 episodes.They could have easily shortened em both to 12 ep max. 5 for BoG and 7 for RoF(since it had more action).

This is how i rate animes. Are they impactful to me? Does it have awesome scenes where i just smile non stop while watching the scene? Are the epic moments rewatchable?Do i like the characters? Are there allot of epic moments?

That is also why i mostly like DB from when Piccolo showed up, while prior it was cool, when King Piccolo appeared that is when it got awesome. So i like DB for those awesome moments, i like DBZ for those many awesome moments and i likely Super because it also has many awesome moments that simply entertain me. GT sadly i dont find many awesome moments, maybe when Baby Vegeta couldnt do anything to ssj4 Goku, beyond that nothing comes to mind.

[King-K9]

You know a sequel is bad when the best defense people have for it is "Don't compare it to it's predecessor".

[Baggie_Saiyan]

You know a sequel is bad when the best defense people have for it is "Don't compare it to it's predecessor".

Except that isn't what this thread is about the TC doesn't want Super to be compared because s/he doesn't think it is worthy basically as s/he is under the impression that people only like Super because of how much they love the old series and wants people to view Super as a separate entity which is impossible because it is a sequel.