Toriyama ending DBZ after the freeza arc. Any proof?

[Rocketman]

I think it comes from the mood of the plot. Things build to a thunderous conclusion near the end of the Freeza Saga, then it's like "Nope, changed my mind! Everybody comes back to life!" Even Freeza, who barely survived a Spirit Bomb, somehow lives through a planet exploding while he's cut in half and been blasted by SSJ Goku, and Goku, despite us seeing his final moments being him screaming as the planet erupts, somehow magically has time to find and use the Ginyu Force ship.

[Kaboom]

The point being is that you don't need to see solid, textual proof, such as an interview or press release or bunk like that. You can see that it was supposed to end just from how the story was building (and actually "ended").

[Mystery Person X]

When I say fillers, I'm saiying about part of the show that wasn't Akira's creation. He only did some character design for movies, but the story was created by Toei.

But that's not correct.

Fans use it in that sense all the time in reference to tons of different series. The word is a neologism anyway, is there really any need to be so literal about its meaning?

[Xyex]

When I say fillers, I'm saiying about part of the show that wasn't Akira's creation. He only did some character design for movies, but the story was created by Toei.

But that's not correct.

Fans use it in that sense all the time in reference to tons of different series. The word is a neologism anyway, is there really any need to be so literal about its meaning?

Just because it's used incorrectly doesn't make it correct. Filler = material that fills space between canon segments. Movies do not fill space, they are extra, and thus they are not filler. They may or may not be canon, but they are certainly not filler.

[Mystery Person X]

Just because it's used incorrectly doesn't make it correct.

Words are defined by their usage. It is very commonplace to refer to all parts of an anime that don't originate in the manga (including movies, OVAs, etc.) as "filler". It's not like you don't know what someone means when they say it.

[zoiozazu]

When I say fillers, I'm saiying about part of the show that wasn't Akira's creation. He only did some character design for movies, but the story was created by Toei.

But that's not correct.

Fans use it in that sense all the time in reference to tons of different series. The word is a neologism anyway, is there really any need to be so literal about its meaning?

You got it...

[VegettoEX]

Words are defined by their usage. It is very commonplace to refer to all parts of an anime that don't originate in the manga (including movies, OVAs, etc.) as "filler". It's not like you don't know what someone means when they say it.

Words are defined by their usage *and* general context *and* background of who's saying it... etc...

As an example, there are plenty of times people have come up to me (either online or in person at a convention) and asked me a question, and I have absolutely no idea what they're talking about... because they're using FUNimation dub-exclusive terminology that I've never had any reason to be familiar with. Am I wrong? Are they wrong? Are we both wrong?

Long story short, no, I have absolutely no idea what someone's talking about if they're talking above movie events and "filler" as if they're one-in-the-same. That's not the way I've come to know the terminology, and while I recognize that language is a living and ever-changing commodity to human existence, if not everyone's on the exact same page, then no, it's not really all that OK to assume someone knows what you're talking about.

I know absolutely nothing about Star Wars, but let me ask those of you who are... would you consider any of the "official novels" to be "filler"...? There are different types, right? Some that take place before? During? After? Is there different terminology for the different types?

If you would like to start a new topic on this (since it's clear that one could easily be generated), just let me know, or go ahead and start one up .

Getting back to the original topic at hand (since that was mostly self-admitted garbled rambling)...

I'd love for everyone to go back through the various interviews and reference materials they have on hand to dig up possible inferences Toriyama has made about "ending" the series. I know there are some in the early tankobon where he says something about maybe going for 10 volumes. There are plenty of other interviews where he may have dropped some hints. I've been sitting on this translated interview from the German magazine "BANZAI" forever... I should take a look at it and see what's in there...

[Sebastian (SB)]

Viz's Shonen Jump Vol.1 Issue 3 pg. 172

Q:Will you create more Dragon Ball Z stories?
A: I worked on the series for almost 10 years. When I reached about the third year, I was really pushing my limit, but the original editors of Weekly Shonen Jump in Japan made me continue the story. I have to thank them, because it was then that I really started to appreciate & enjoy creating the manga. I was able to continue for ten years, but ten years really was the limit.

There's also this whole cross interview with Akira Toriyama & The Yasutoko Brothers (Former inline skating champions). I think I'll scan it later though. From what I've found, it just seems Toriyama was getting somewhat frustrated with Dragon Ball at points, more particularly, how he kept powering up the characters.

Dragon Ball was a serious pain. I was always wondering "The character can't possibly get any stronger, do I have to continue this?"
-Akira Toriyama
(SJ Vol. 1 Issue 3 pg.175)

This phrase is a bit misleading because you can't really tell which point of story, Toriyama started feeling this way. The characters in Dragon Ball has always gotten progressively stronger, but if you go back to the previous question, he stated that the 3rd year of Dragon Ball was when he "pushing his limit", then he goes about stating as he went on with story, he enjoyed it more.

Make of it what you will, it just all sounds a bit contradicting to me.

[Rocketman]

Make of it what you will, it just all sounds a bit contradicting to me.

He realized it didn't have to make sense.

[Kaboom]

I just find it funny how modern anime fans complain about the series being too long or repetitive, when fan demand was what caused it to be so in the first place.

That's what I always make sure to tell people now, when they bring up the "newer, stronger villain" issue. I just tell 'em it's because that's what the fans wanted.

[desirecampbell]

That's what I always make sure to tell people now, when they bring up the "newer, stronger villain" issue. I just tell 'em it's because that's what the fans wanted.

I always defend it with "Well, what else was Toriyama supposed to do? Make them weaker?"

I mean, if Pilaf showed up again and somehow posed any real threat to Goku, it would only lead to a whole series of repetitive, stupid, illogical events.

[Thanos6]

*giggles softly*

It would have been interesting if the Super Saiyan was a one-time, for this battle only event. Like Goku had been chosen by the gods to rid the universe of this blight upon it.

Hmm...maybe that's why the hair is so different that time...Holy Super Saiyan...

[Sebastian (SB)]

Make of it what you will, it just all sounds a bit contradicting to me.

He realized it didn't have to make sense.

Yeah, that about sums it up. But I'm a bit confused about his feelings towards Dragon Ball. It seems he doesn't enjoy having to do a weekly serial, yet he enjoyed working on Dragon Ball?

[Xyex]

*giggles softly*

It would have been interesting if the Super Saiyan was a one-time, for this battle only event. Like Goku had been chosen by the gods to rid the universe of this blight upon it.

Hmm...maybe that's why the hair is so different that time...Holy Super Saiyan...

Haha. I'd thought of something similar for a fic once. The idea being that Super Saiya-jin was not something one could access at will, ever. So basicly you had to have something trigger the transformation for it to happen, and it didn't get any easier.

If it was something like that you'd see SSJ all of like, two or three times in the series. Goku Vs. Freeza, Gohan Vs Cell, and then maybe Vegeta against Buu.

But I'm a bit confused about his feelings towards Dragon Ball. It seems he doesn't enjoy having to do a weekly serial, yet he enjoyed working on Dragon Ball?

He enjoyed the series. He hated the hectic life of pumping out a new chapter every week.

[Eclipse]

One bit of proof I think that shows that Toriyama may have considered ending the manga after Freeza is in the manga itself. Right where the planet's about to blow up and Goku does that scream with pose as the planet gets destroyed (Right where he realizes he doesn't have a chance to escape)
A lot of people have noted that that bit in the manga is iffy, especially when Goku later says he found a spaceship nearby. Plus, if it was to be ended, it'd be a great ending, don't you think?

[Conan the SSJ]

One bit of proof I think that shows that Toriyama may have considered ending the manga after Freeza is in the manga itself. Right where the planet's about to blow up and Goku does that scream with pose as the planet gets destroyed (Right where he realizes he doesn't have a chance to escape)
A lot of people have noted that that bit in the manga is iffy, especially when Goku later says he found a spaceship nearby. Plus, if it was to be ended, it'd be a great ending, don't you think?

Not just in the manga, but it's a lot more iffy in the anime. With the anime, it's kinda like a serial from the 1940s doing a cheap cop-out. Freeza's ship was completely enveloped by Namek's lava, Goku flies up far beyond where it was lost to Namek's surface to scream his ass off. Only ... what, 10 seconds pass? Then Namek blows as a white light embraces him. Then suddenly with the Android arc, it's changed in Goku's flashback story to the white light embracing him while he's still in Freeza's ship and evidently getting much more time in banging the console with his fists.

[Anonymous Friend]

I see a lot of people trying to use the manga and anime to determine were it was ment to end. This kind of reason is highly flawed. I'm not sure how the spread of information flows in Japanese media, but here in America, if a popular series has no plans on continuing, the might be news passed around to the fans or atleast leaked out.

Also if it was meant to end, it would not end the same way the same way that the story progressed. Unless, there was some very last second decisions going on.

I don't know, but this kinda seems like the end of Buffy season 5.

[DemonKingPiccolo]

I can't find a source, but I definintely think I remember Toriyama stating it in an interview somewhere.

And if you look at the fundamentals of the story, it would make sense if the story ending at the Freeza arc.
1) Goku would die after his fight with Freeza. (I believe that Toriyama's wife convinced him to continue the series before the chapter with Porunga reviving everyone.)

2) Freeza would die after his battle with Goku.

3) "The Legend" would then be true, one Super Saiyan would emerge after 1000 years. (Aside from many appearing after a few years)

[Kikoha Hater]

There’s needs to be a tangible source to validate this as a fact, not cop-out answers like “it’s obvious he meant to end there” or “you don’t need any proof” and other explanations.

[Pieter]

Here's an old post of mine about the same subject:

Quotes from Toriyama:

Q: What does the Z in Dragonball Z stand for? (Most of us know that the Z was only used in the anime and it was just an index to separate Goku as a kid and Goku as an adult. But check out the response from Toriyama-san).
A: I was starting to run out of things for Dragonball and I really wanted to finish the series. So I thought that if I put a Z at the end of Dragonball, people would think that it was going to end soon!

Q: I was wondering if you really wanted to end the series where it ended? Do you want to continue to write for the series?
A: I worked on the series for nearly 10 years and I really wanted to end the series at year 3. But... well... Shonen Jump (the original publishers) made me continue the series. But I'm glad the they pushed me to continue it, because I would not have appreciated it as much as I do now. But 10 years is really where my limit is (and he does not want to do it anymore)!

So what's year 3? I believe that's when Z started. He's said in other interviews that originally it was supposed to end after Dragonball too. He also wanted it to end quickly, which is of course after the Namek saga. But we have no idea at what point he decided not to. And I'm not too sure about this but I thought sometime he also said he tried to make Gohan the hero of the show which indicates that he wanted to end it after the Cell Saga.

In other words, pretty much every saga after the 22nd tenkaichi was at some point supposed to be the last and if I'm not mistaken his original intention when starting Dragon Ball was that it was supposed to be a short martial arts promotion.

Guessing what his original ending was is pretty much impossible, because first you'd have to wonder which part of the series you are talking about, and then we don't even know if he had thought up an ending yet or saved it for later as he often does.