Dragon Ball and "Feminism"

[Kanassa]

I suppose what's most frustrating is that the term is so nebulous now, and has pretty much lost all meaning. People use it as an excuse to shut off when difficult subjects are brought up - "Oh I'm not interested in that SJW crap!" - regardless of what's being said. So now you can't reasonably identify those damaging people or have a good conversation. You sure are right, "Our world is... not great right now."

Really, SJW is like the word 'Nazi' is now a day (With the whole ''It's okay to punch a nazi!'' craze on twitter), devoid of any power and meaning it once had and watered down to be a label imposed on those you disagree with. Though, admittedly, even as someone who's ideals fall in with the types of people who would probably use the term 'SJW', I will always think that the term itself just sounds stupid as an insulting label. It sounds like a god damn sandwich!

[rereboy]

Not saying you don't understand it, but I simply want to say that a work of art can include political ideas if the story is about that sort of issue. It doesn't have to be implicit to be organic to the story and the characters.

The whole idea of saying "when it develops naturally" is basically the same as saying that an entertainment series can have organic political views/messages in it without it being a problem. My whole post is about the distinction between different situations in which political views/messages are included in a entertainment series.

[DBZAOTA482]

Wanna complain about sexism in the series? Go after Toei. After all they created Maron, Pan (GT), and Yurin.

I'm... I'm not seeing the connection here.

Yurin and especially Maron are walking fanservice.

Pan in GT is depicted as whiny, incompetent, and self-centered for no discernable reason other than the fact she's a girl. She even had the ovaries to state "Girls get stronger when they cry!". Not a feminist at all but that scene made me wanna puke and I dropped GT altogether.

[ABED]

Wanna complain about sexism in the series? Go after Toei. After all they created Maron, Pan (GT), and Yurin.

I'm... I'm not seeing the connection here.

Yurin and especially Maron are walking fanservice.

Pan in GT is depicted as whiny, incompetent, and self-centered for no discernable reason other than the fact she's a girl. She even had the ovaries to state "Girls get stronger when they cry!". Not a feminist at all but that scene made me wanna puke and I dropped GT altogether.

She's prepubescent.

[Ajay]

At the same time (and going back to Kojiro Sasaki's point about not limiting speech)... I mean... like... I'm not willing to have a discussion about what merits there are to white supremacy. There's no debate to be had. It's not getting equal consideration time. That's getting shut down. Immediately. Is that limiting free speech? OK. Good. (Also: a Dragon Ball discussion board does not have any free speech guarantee. We're not your actual government.)

Just to clarify since I also appreciate we're so far off topic now: I'm absolutely not advocating for people to be able to say anything they want without repercussions, especially in a place like this where what content is and isn't acceptable is totally at the discretion of the site owners. Even in the 'real world', what you give time to is totally up to you, of course, I'm just saying that progress and change doesn't come about without conversation, and I really don't like the current trend of not even being willing to entertain ideas that we don't agree with. Largely culling white supremacy certainly wouldn't have happened without it, for example.

Anyway, sorry if that wasn't clear!

[swimtrunks]

Are we really going to have this argument again? I'm not gonna repeat myself but I will say what the problem is. The op is the problem. The op is very clearly one of those people with Aspergers that doesn't know any better. He/she reads social justice tumblrs, then comes here(or goes to reddit) to whine about sjw's because he/she doesn't get enough attention on tumblr because no one follows him/her.

Can the mods please do something about this? Or are we gonna have to hear the op's next rant about Dragon Ball and "Race" when he/she reads ONE person on tumblr say they wanna see a prominent black character. The title alone is clickbait. It's getting ridiculous how no one is tired of this shit.

Like what's the point in these political discussions? People are bringing up Marvel Comics but that company has it's own set of forums. Go argue about that at comicbookresources. We all know Dragon Ball as a franchise isn't going to change so again what's the point in arguing?

The op is just TRIGGERED!

[VegettoEX]

Are we really going to have this argument again? I'm not gonna repeat myself but I will say what the problem is. The op is the problem. The op is very clearly one of those people with Aspergers that doesn't know any better. He/she reads social justice tumblrs, then comes here(or goes to reddit) to whine about sjw's because he/she doesn't get enough attention on tumblr because no one follows him/her.

Can the mods please do something about this? Or are we gonna have to hear the op's next rant about Dragon Ball and "Race" when he/she reads ONE person on tumblr say they wanna see a prominent black character. The title alone is clickbait. It's getting ridiculous how no one is tired of this shit.

Like what's the point in these political discussions? People are bringing up Marvel Comics but that company has it's own set of forums. Go argue about that at comicbookresources. We all know Dragon Ball as a franchise isn't going to change so again what's the point in arguing?

The op is just TRIGGERED!

Two moderators are actively involved in the discussion. Have you actually read the posts and the conversation taking place, or are you yourself just being "triggered" here?

[sintzu]

This applies to a lot of things today, you have people jumping up and down over non issues yet things like the cost of living, medical & education are going to hell and no one is interested in saying anything about them.

I am extremely happy that Toriyama wrote Dragon Ball in the 80's. He might not have written it as he did today.

I think he would've because Political correctness, SJW's, etc. don't exist in Japan. Even today stories like One Piece and Naruto do what DB did back in the day and everyone's OK with them. If someone doesn't like them they just find something else to enjoy and if they do complain the authors don't pay any atention to them and that's how things should be. If they start caving in to their demands then others will want to be listened to as well and after awhile you'll end up with Marvel comics 2.0 where the writers are too busy trying not to offend everyone that they're stories are just political agendas now.

[Basaku]

Can I just mention how hilarious it is that Kojiro Sasaki, who's calling everyone and everything "leftist craziness with agenda"... is the one bringing most politically-charged and completly irrelevant discussion and posting 4chan Trump/Clinton memes (which have absolutely nothing to do with Dragon Ball and feminism) in the topic? Trully a shining example of "not having an agenda" lol

I think he would've because Political correctness [...] don't exist in Japan.

What do you think the 'Japanese conformism' is? It's their flavour of political corectness.

[rereboy]

Can I just mention how hilarious it is that Kojiro Sasaki, who's calling everyone and everything "leftist craziness with agenda"... is the one bringing most politically-charged and completly irrelevant discussion and posting 4chan Trump/Clinton memes (which have absolutely nothing to do with Dragon Ball and feminism) in the topic? Trully a shining example of "not having an agenda" lol

I have to agree with this. It doesn't make much sense.

[omaro34]

Dragonball has a target audience which is younger Japanese boys. With the addition of these new Super Saiyan Female characters they might be trying to broaden that audience a bit to cater to another demographic.

I cringe at Roshi's unfunny gags of trying to lure women. Him running after Puar transformed into a girl just looks too creepy to be funny. Its done so many times that I simply roll my eyes every time I see it.

If you guys do remember, the original Dragonball had some material that would rarely be done in an anime in the year 2017. Some were hilarious though, mainly due to Kid Goku's naivety. Roshi has been bleeding from the nose for 30 plus years now. This is nothing new.

I do understand if people find it offensive or even sexist. I'm not in a position to tell people what should offend them and what shouldn't. As a black man, I didn't like how Staff Officer Black from the RRA or Killa from the Buu saga were portrayed with their thick lips, especially Killa's incoherent speech in the Funimation Dub, but I simply accepted it as a racial stereotype and moved on.

[Soppa Saia People]

This is just awful. Trump being very openly racist and misogynistic, which can tell some people, that's it's okay to act like that, is much worse than some emails.

[Kojiro Sasaki]

(...) questioned about (accused of?) (...)

Questioned! I've received satisfying reply.

(Also: a Dragon Ball discussion board does not have any free speech guarantee. We're not your actual government.)

You switched the topic from free speech to private property. As an owner of a forum, you are allowed to censor everything as you want. This counts as freedom. Rules are simple: do everything - face the consequences. Do you want to kill somebody? Do it - you will receive death pernalty in exchange. Do you want to censor foum? Do it - poeple will spread this fact everywhere, and nobody will register here. That's how it works.

Are we really going to have this argument again? I'm not gonna repeat myself but I will say what the problem is. The op is the problem. The op is very clearly one of those people with Aspergers that doesn't know any better. He/she reads social justice tumblrs, then comes here(or goes to reddit) to whine about sjw's because he/she doesn't get enough attention on tumblr because no one follows him/her.

With those skills, you could be a great detective.

Can the mods please do something about this?

How typical. You don't like something? Denounce it! Kill it! And you end up with more than 100 million victims of communism and nazism.

Can I just mention how hilarious it is that Kojiro Sasaki, who's calling everyone and everything "leftist craziness with agenda"... is the one bringing most politically-charged and completly irrelevant discussion and posting 4chan Trump/Clinton memes (which have absolutely nothing to do with Dragon Ball and feminism) in the topic? Trully a shining example of "not having an agenda" lol

Everyone and everything includes me, Trump, entire right and you! We are the same! We are equal! Telling me that the picture I posted has nothing to do with what I wanted to say makes me not interested in further discussion with you. I prefer open minded, less triggered and less biased* people, who put more effort into understanding their interlocutors and do not discriminate them because of their political views.

* - I am talking about not allowing me to use Trump meme for something else, JUST because it contains “Trump” word.

I agree - let's go back to Dragon Ball

[sintzu]

This is just awful. Trump being very openly racist and misogynistic, which can tell some people, that's it's okay to act like that, is much worse than some emails.

Trumps has a big mouth that he doesn't know when to shut, it's annoying but that's all it is. Those emails on the other hand not only put the country's national security at risk but she also got some people killed.

[ABED]

Can we bring it back to Dragon Ball? I've had enough of Trump, and I think the discussion about DB and feminism is one worth having.

[Generico Garbagio]

Can we bring it back to Dragon Ball?

Goku should use the Dragon Balls to change sex. Transsexual Goku = all problems fixed! I would also say he should turn black, but you know how THAT works out.

[VegettoEX]

GOOD LORD are there some unbelievable things I wish we could address in some of those latest responses... but...

Yes, the discussion at hand here please.

[Basaku]

Everyone and everything includes me, Trump, entire right and you! We are the same! We are equal! Telling me that the picture I posted has nothing to do with what I wanted to say makes me not interested in further discussion with you. I prefer open minded, less triggered and less biased* people, who put more effort into understanding their interlocutors and do not discriminate them because of their political views.

* - I am talking about not allowing me to use Trump meme for something else, JUST because it contains “Trump” word.

I agree - let's go back to Dragon Ball

Your opening statement was about 'leftwing crazies' who wanna decapitate Europe. You sure got quite the audacity to ask others to understand your as their interlocutor when you engage them in conversation the way you do - accuse of literally the insane and worst, insult, throw in all the rightwing soundbites, memes, rephrase Beata Szydlo's dogmatic speech and then and pretend you were interested in sophisticated discussion on worldviews and everyone's just unfairly picking up on you.

[Doctor.]

I don't understand representation. Well, I do, I understand it just fine, people want to relate to characters in the story they're reading, and that's fine, being the same gender can help with that. Rather, I don't understand the people who claim they want more representation in media. If their response to every criticism about forced representation is "they're still humans, you should be able to relate to them all the same" then why do they want representation in the first place? They should be able to relate to men just fine.

I mean, it's a hole in this kind of logic. You could flip the question around but I'd just respond that the issues men and women face are different, I don't believe a man can relate to a female character that easily. There are human issues, there are male issues and there are female issues. Male characters, as I stated in the other thread, rarely tackle male-only issues and approach instead the general problems an individual faces. A lot of major female characters in media, however, usually make it so that their gender is an important part of their identity. This is why I totally understand male writers who don't know how to write convincing female characters: because, when writing one, you're expected to make everything about the character revolve around female-only issues (y'know, to represent females). And what the hell does a man know about woman-specific issues? "If you're not gonna write them that way, why not just make the character male instead", they think, "there has to be a point to the character not being male!" This is why the major female characters who are critically acclaimed are written as people, not women. Ellen Ripley for instance.

Toriyama doesn't care about any of this stuff so he just confines characters to stereotypes or archetypes when he's bored with them. It's not malicious, it's lazy.

[Generico Garbagio]

Everyone and everything includes me, Frieza, entire Frieza army and you! We are the same! We are equal! Telling me that the picture I posted has nothing to do with what I wanted to say makes me not interested in further discussion with you. I prefer open minded, less triggered and less biased* people, who put more effort into understanding their interlocutors and do not discriminate them because of their Dragon Ball views.

* - I am talking about not allowing me to use Frieza meme for something else, JUST because it contains “Frieza” word.

I agree - let's go back to Dragon Ball

Your opening statement was about 'Poacher crazies' who wanna decapitate 17's island's animals. You sure got quite the audacity to ask others to understand your as their interlocutor when you engage them in conversation the way you do - accuse of literally the insane and worst, insult, throw in all the rightwing soundbites, memes, rephrase Beata Szydlo's dogmatic speech and then and pretend you were interested in sophisticated discussion on Dragonworldviews and everyone's just unfairly picking up on you.

Fixed that for you guys.