When did the series drag for you?

[Gog]

You've reduced Goku to a one note gag. Maybe his naivete works best as a gag, but that's hardly all the character is. He's driven to be the best martial artist he can be. His interactions with Upa weren't supposed to be fun, not overall. It's not long after they meet that Upa's father is murdered. And I don't see how Upa's personality is remotely similar to Goku's. They both might be naïve, but for different reasons.

One moment of Upa's you are forgetting is his fight against Dracula Man.

You have a point Kid Goku isn't a one note gag. He's a two dimensional character which is where my problem with him being the focus of a scene stems from. Outside of his need to be the best, becoming cocky when he's outmatched his opponent, and his naivety that's all the characterization Goku has as a child. He's just a less interesting version of when he's an adult at the end of the day.

I'm also going to ramble a bit on Goku's motivation here, but his motivation of becoming the strongest in the world is another uninteresting aspect of his character. It's hardly brought up, it's not the source of conflict, nothing interesting comes from this desire, this belief, and at the end of the day that's it for Goku's motivations as a child. There's nothing else to him in that regard.

He really has nothing interesting going on with his character at any given moment, he really only had three moments of interesting characterization, Kuririn's death, his tears after defeating King Piccolo, and his battle with Popo. Besides that there's really nothing to him, and it's made all the more worse when compared to characters, like Kuririn, Bulma, Yamcha, Tao Pai Pai, General Blue, Oolong, Master Rosho, King Piccolo, Mr. Popo, God, and so much more. Who are all absolutely bursting to the very brim with character.

That's not my point with Upa's and Goku's interactions. Them interacting is clearly not meant to be fun, but all of their interacting are uninteresting, and not memorable. It's just a slog going through their scenes together. Bringing up Upa's father I'd say he's a far more interesting character than Upa himself. You have a point Goku, and Upa aren't similar beyond the basic sense of personality, I just can't bring myself to care about his character at all.

Also, thanks for reminding me about that scene.

[Torturephile]

Firstly, around the Namek saga, when the overall pace slowed down for me, partly due to the fillers usually interrupting whatever interesting event was going on. Mind you, the non-filler plot of that saga seemed more complex than that of the saiyan one, and I think it may be justified why it should have taken longer (but not much longer like it did) to wrap things up, so that things get expanded upon better. Secondly, the Buu saga also dragged thanks to the constant changes of who was supposed to be the hero, along with every single one of them being hyped as "our last hope" and having episodes dedicated to how strong they were, just to be defeated two episodes later.

[ABED]

Gog, I couldn't possibly disagree with you more. For one, he's literally the exact same character as a child as when he's an adult.

It's hardly brought up, it's not the source of conflict, nothing interesting comes from this desire, this belief, and at the end of the day that's it for Goku's motivations as a child. There's nothing else to him in that regard.

Goku's desire to be the best is ALWAYS brought up, even if just implicitly. It's his raison d'etre. It IS a source of conflict and story. It's the entire reason he goes with Bulma. He lets Piccolo go after Piccolo tried to murder him for that reason. He let Vegeta go because he wanted a fight. He allows Dr. Gero to create the cyborgs because he wants a good fight.

Upa and Goku's personalities aren't the same at all. They share a similar trait and that's it, but even that manifests in different ways.

Who are all absolutely bursting to the very brim with character.

What do you consider "character" to be?

Goku is the main character and I don't know how you don't believe the entire show drags if you don't care for the main character.

[Gog]

Gog, I couldn't possibly disagree with you more. For one, he's literally the exact same character as a child as when he's an adult.

And I couldn't disagree more, this is how an argument happens, and god damn if it isn't the wildest ride possible on the internet. Even then Goku and Kid Goku have vast differences between the two of them on a whole, when Kid Goku is faced with an enemy he can easily wipe out he wipes them out unless they admit to becoming good, when Goku faces an enemy that doesn't renounce good, and one he can easily wipe out he'll let them go.

Adult Goku is also far more selfish than his child counterpart letting absolute monsters like Vegeta go for the sole reason because he gave him a good fight, and can give him another good fight as well. Kid Goku also liked a good fight I can admit that much, but it was never as exaggerated as it was when he was an adult.

Goku's desire to be the best is ALWAYS brought up, even if just implicitly. It's his raison d'etre. It IS a source of conflict and story. It's the entire reason he goes with Bulma. He lets Piccolo go after Piccolo tried to murder him for that reason. He let Vegeta go because he wanted a fight. He allows Dr. Gero to create the cyborgs because he wants a good fight.

I'm referring to Kid Goku here. For Adult Goku the source of conflict is always his goals, which make his goals interesting. Kid Goku's goals never really tie into the narrative, sure his goals usually correspond with defeating the main villain of the arc, but that's not what his main motivation is. His goals never really go anywhere, sure at the end of Dragon Ball he becomes the strongest in the world, but up until that point nothing of interest had been done with it, nothing interesting ever happened with it until the very end.

Upa and Goku's personalities aren't the same at all. They share a similar trait and that's it, but even that manifests in different ways.

And, as I stated I just don't care for Upa's character at the end of the day. I do admit calling Upa, and Goku similar characters was a logical fallacy I practically ran into, but my point still stands I have no interest in his character.

What do you consider "character" to be?

What I'd define as a 3 Dimensional character is somebody who isn't defined by 2 traits, 2 gags, and one motivation. Essentially Freeza's what I'd consider to be a 3 Dimensional Character.

Goku is the main character and I don't know how you don't believe the entire show drags if you don't care for the main character.

I was referring to Kid Goku, Adult Goku is a far more interesting character than when he was a child too be honest. Even then the supporting cast in Early Dragon Ball makes up for The Main Character.

[RIPinPeaches]

It dragged for me when there was any filler with Bulma in the namek arc.

[TheBigBoy]

It dragged for me when there was any filler with Bulma in the namek arc.

Oh boy, yeah. It seems like there's a huge stretch of episodes that have at least one scene of Bulma wandering around a Namekian wasteland and all kinds of bizarre things happening. Dinosaur stampedes, bubbles floating around...weird stuff.

Then a few episodes later they remember they have everyone on earth so they make a bunch of scenes of them preparing to jump on spaceship to Namek with HIJINX!

[ABED]

Adult Goku is also far more selfish than his child counterpart letting absolute monsters like Vegeta go for the sole reason because he gave him a good fight, and can give him another good fight as well. Kid Goku also liked a good fight I can admit that much, but it was never as exaggerated as it was when he was an adult.

He tries to let Tao Pai Pai go. In essence, he's the same exact person, it's simply the level of threat has increased.

Kid Goku's goals never really tie into the narrative

I'm baffled how you come to this conclusion. It happens every single step of the way. He's constantly moving towards that goal. In the Red Ribbon Army arc, he wants to retrieve the 4 star ball.

What I'd define as a 3 Dimensional character is somebody who isn't defined by 2 traits, 2 gags, and one motivation. Essentially Freeza's what I'd consider to be a 3 Dimensional Character.

Freeza is no more dimensional than Goku. Freeza is defined by his sadism and gentlemanly front and his single motivation is power. A character doesn't have to be 3 dimensional to be a character and Goku is no less dimensional than all the characters you listed.

Anyway, this is its own thread, and tangential to the main question. So if there is any interest in continuing the discussion, feel free to say you or I should create that thread.

Any time Chichi's on screen from the wedding dress arc to around the end of the Cell arc pretty much drags.

[Gog]

He tries to let Tao Pai Pai go. In essence, he's the same exact person, it's simply the level of threat has increased.

He was only ever going to let Tao Pai Pai go when he told him he was going to renounce his evil ways. He actually kills Black at the end of the Red Ribbon Saga for being evil, and Black couldn't offer Goku a good fight.

I'm baffled how you come to this conclusion. It happens every single step of the way. He's constantly moving towards that goal. In the Red Ribbon Army arc, he wants to retrieve the 4 star ball.

Yeah, definitely forgot about that.

Freeza is no more dimensional than Goku. Freeza is defined by his sadism and gentlemanly front and his single motivation is power. A character doesn't have to be 3 dimensional to be a character and Goku is no less dimensional than all the characters you listed.

You know, for Freeza you do have to read between the lines. Anyway, we know what Freeza's hobby is, which is collecting planets, we know that Freeza gets bored of them easily, we know that Freeza only ever loses his cool when he's run out of his trump cards, he's also paranoid, yes he's polite, and he's also vengeful but the dimensions to his character run much deeper than that. And even then I've only ever stated that Kid Goku is 2 Dimensional.

Anyway, this is its own thread, and tangential to the main question. So if there is any interest in continuing the discussion, feel free to say you or I should create that thread.

Yeah, could you please make that thread?

[precita]

and more or less the entire Cell arc after Cell absorbs #17 (but especially the episodes with Vegeta and Trunks fighting Perfect Cell).

What's wrong with the Cell Games?

I never want to see the bulk of Super's "recruitment arc" episodes again.

Really? I mean there's so many truly dire episodes or fillers in the series not worth rewatching, but I don't think these qualify, besides the second 17 ep with the poacher and the Roshi/Tenshihan ep.