Pan as main character

[Chuquita]

With Pan it depends on which one we're talking about. EoZ Pan seemed a lot of fun, dbs Pan feels like she'll become EoZ Pan, but GT Pan was such a reverse of EoZ's personality and I didn't like that. I like tsundere Videl, but not tsundere Pan.

I'd like to see Pan and Bra as the replacements for Goten and Trunks, but not for Gokû. I really like her interactions with him, but I don't want her to replace him.

Gokû's the only reason I'm following this Omni Tournament arc. Without him and Vegeta I'd be going weeks/months without bothering to watch Super at all.

If or when Gokû and Vegeta are replaced, I'll stop watching the show.

[sintzu]

Vegeta was a great character, but his role was perfect as an antagonist/secondary character, not as main character. Being a cool character doesn't mean work as a main character.

Do you think if Gohan and Videl would have a son instead of a daughter, that male grandson of Goku would have more posibilities to be accepted than Pan, only because Pan is female ?

I know, I mean that if they had to pick someone to be it then Vegeta is the most workable cause he's been the 2nd main character of the story since the Buu arc, he's had the most character development after Goku and has had the 2nd most important screen time after Goku.

No, bringing in a random new character and having them be the main one in this kind of story won't work simply because of how everything revolves around Goku and how everyone recognizes his as the face of the franchise. The only one who can hold this kind of story other than the main character is the 2nd main character for the reasons above.

Having a random new character like Pan be the face of DB instead of Goku would be like having Duke Thomas be the face of the Batman franchise (he's a new character introduced by scott snyder in the comics).

Without Goku and Vegeta I'd be going weeks/months without bothering to watch Super at all.

If or when Gokû and Vegeta are replaced, I'll stop watching the show.

That's what I've been doing since Bulla was born. DB isn't the same without Vegeta.

Most people will. If they want to kill the franchise then that's the way to do it.

[Captain Strawberry]

That's what I've been doing since Bulla was born. DB isn't the same without Vegeta.

Most people will. If they want to kill the franchise then that's the way to do it.

I think only if Dragon Ball goes back to being an adventure story and Goku leaves the old cast behind like the end of GT.

[ABED]

How do you know that? If Toriyama/Toei haven't create new sagas with net generation taking over, we can't already know people would dislike it. And logically, it's supposed that people who like that idea will enjoy if that idea come true, and being fan of an idea that you don't want come true isn't logical, so I guess your apreciation about people who likes the idea of next generation taking over but don't want that idea coming true is mistaken.

He tried to have Gohan takeover and it didn't work. He didn't like it and the audience didn't respond as well. How is what I wrote illogical? There's idea and then there's execution. They aren't one in the same. There is the idea of the next generation taking over and then there's them actually taking over. I've seen plenty of shows where another character took over the central role after the central character spent years in that spot and it never works out as well. I get the appeal of the circularity of life, but after a lengthy run in the spotlight, characters accrue what you could call emotional equity that comes with time.

[Basaku]

Then, do you think Goku should be always the main character? Or do you think Goku could be replaced, but not by Pan?

He should always be the main character. Other characters can get focus, but he's still the central character. DB is his story.

Namek/Freeza arc is an ensemble cast story, Android/Cell saga is Future Trunks & Gohan's story, Buu saga is no one's story (you could replace Goku with a very powerful banana and the result would be the same). DB being primarly Goku's story ended at Saiyan saga.

[ABED]

Then, do you think Goku should be always the main character? Or do you think Goku could be replaced, but not by Pan?

He should always be the main character. Other characters can get focus, but he's still the central character. DB is his story.

Namek/Freeza arc is an ensemble cast story, Android/Cell saga is Future Trunks & Gohan's story, Buu saga is no one's story (you could replace Goku with a very powerful banana and the result would be the same). DB being primarly Goku's story ended at Saiyan saga.

Ensemble stories can still have a central character. The other characters made important contributions, but they weren't where the story was building towards. It was all building towards the confrontation between Goku and Freeza.

Cell arc isn't Gohan's story. He became the hero, but only at the very end. He gets surprisingly little focus until then. And the Buu arc ultimately comes back around to Goku. Vegeta's epiphany is admitting Goku is No. 1 and the ending is all about Goku and his desires, so I don't know where your comment about the results being the same comes from.

[Basaku]

Ensemble stories can still have a central character. The other characters made important contributions, but they weren't where the story was building towards. It was all building towards the confrontation between Goku and Freeza.

Cell arc isn't Gohan's story. He became the hero, but only at the very end. He gets surprisingly little focus until then. And the Buu arc ultimately comes back around to Goku.

The central character stops being the driving force if the dispoportion of actual plot developement is handed to the 'supporting' cast to the degree it was on Namek. Everything of note sans SSJ1 happens before Goku arrives and then it's practically endless padding of the final fight with little else to going for it.

Even with less focus at the start, the ultimate point still is about Gohan and fully transitioning onto the next generation (regardless of backtracking in Buu saga) and Future Trunks' story.

Nothing comes back to Goku in Buu arc, Vegeta has more purpouse and point in that story than Goku, he's just a fighting bot and walking advertisement for new toys.

[ABED]

Ensemble stories can still have a central character. The other characters made important contributions, but they weren't where the story was building towards. It was all building towards the confrontation between Goku and Freeza.

Cell arc isn't Gohan's story. He became the hero, but only at the very end. He gets surprisingly little focus until then. And the Buu arc ultimately comes back around to Goku.

The central character stops being the driving force if the dispoportion of actual plot developement is handed to the 'supporting' cast to the degree it was on Namek. Everything of note sans SSJ1 happens before Goku arrives and then it's practically endless padding of the final fight with little else to going for it.

Even with less focus at the start, the ultimate point still is about Gohan and fully transitioning onto the next generation (regardless of backtracking in Buu saga).

Nothing comes back to Goku in Buu arc, Vegeta has more purpouse and point in that story than Goku, he's just a fighting bot and walking advertisement for new toys.

Their plot was gathering the DB's but it was still building towards the inevitable clash between Goku and Freeza. Funny, I think the padding is BEFORE Goku fights Freeza. There's a lot of "We're screwed! All right, we might get out of this alive! Shit, he transformed again! Great, we won't get out of this too worse for wear! Fuck, he's transforming again!"

Gohan transitioning in the Cell arc feels like such an afterthought. He doesn't do a damn thing for a long time and even when he is fighting Cell, Goku is still the one who tells him what to do.

It absolutely all comes back to Goku. Vegeta's entire character arc is built towards finally admitting that Goku is better and the very ending of the series is about Goku. It's about him and his desire to get stronger and pass on what he's learned. I think the story is better for it as the lack of focus hurts that arc tremendously.

Having a central character doesn't mean the other characters aren't important or lack purpose or should be there simply to oggle at the hero. The Freeza arc is a perfect example of how to use a supporting cast. They aren't strong enough to face the big bads or the higher level subbordinates, but Kuririn and Gohan and Bulma hunting for the DB's made them useful to the story. It doesn't matter how strong someone is, if they don't have all 7 DB's then they can't get their wish. Impeding Freeza and Vegeta's goals was a great way to use them.

[Basaku]

Their plot was gathering the DB's but it was still building towards the inevitable clash between Goku and Freeza. Funny, I think the padding is BEFORE Goku fights Freeza. There's a lot of "We're screwed! All right, we might get out of this alive! Shit, he transformed again! Great, we won't get out of this too worse for wear! Fuck, he's transforming again!"

Gohan transitioning in the Cell arc feels like such an afterthought. He doesn't do a damn thing for a long time and even when he is fighting Cell, Goku is still the one who tells him what to do.

It absolutely all comes back to Goku. Vegeta's entire character arc is built towards finally admitting that Goku is better and the very ending of the series is about Goku. It's about him and his desire to get stronger and pass on what he's learned.

And the Freeza fight could've been 'executed' by anyone else just as strong. Goku has no personal connection to it, it's not important to his character, he gives no crap about Saiyan heritage or anything else. Namek/Freeza sagas are more Vegeta's story than Goku.

Whatever Gohan is lacking at the start of Cell saga Future Trunks picks up in screentime and purpouse of the story.

Vegeta's arc builds towards admitting he's not the strongest in the universe. Doesn't matter who, if it wasn't Goku it would be Beerus or Bulma's grandma. Goku is not that much important in the grand scheme, not even any other Saiyan. If Goku was Namekian, Vegeta would be irritated about Namekian being stronger than him.

Point is simple, this franchise has used ensemble cast approach heavily since DBZ, it was one of the key reasons for its success and it opened the door to have other characters lead the stories instead of just Goku. It stopped being his story only especially as his character stagnated more and more and became a meme of himself like in Super.

[ABED]

It BECOMES personal to him when he starts fighting Freeza, which is way more important than what happened before. Freeza has tried to kill his friends and his son, he's killed his greatest rival (Vegeta) and eventually kills Kuririn. It's absolutely Goku's story. It's not Vegeta's story. He's important to it, but it's not built around him. You are correct that Goku doesn't have any big character arc or realization, but I don't see how it makes it any less his story. Vegeta's history with Freeza doesn't make it his story.

Whatever Gohan is lacking at the start of Cell saga Future Trunks picks up in screentime and purpouse of the story.

And yet I could use the argument you made about the Freeza arc. The central issue isn't built around him. It's Goku's past and his choices that lead to the cyborgs being created. He's the one Dr. Gero and his creations are after, and he's the one Trunks comes to when he needs help. Gohan's feels like a proxy at that point. Hell, he couldn't defeat Cell if it wasn't for Goku telling him what to do, beginning with not giving up in the first place.

Vegeta's arc builds towards admitting he's not the strongest in the universe.

His entire ending monologue is about his relationship with Goku. He's spent nearly the entire series obsessed with Goku. There have been numerous characters that were stronger than Goku and yet his entire preoccupation was with Goku. His realization ends with him saying "Kakarotto, you are no. 1!" He's finally admitting that Goku is better and he's okay with it. To say otherwise is mistaken.

[BlueBasilisk]

Goku works as the main character because he's proactive. He trains to get stronger and craves fights against strong foes just for the sake of it. He's self-motivated and this makes him a natural source of conflict. As long as Goku has someone to fight, you have material for a story.

Gohan is a reactive character, a reluctant hero who is usually pushed or dragged into conflict rather than seeking it out like his father. Even when he took center stage in the Cell Games he had to be forced into action by Cell.

Anyone who tries to become Goku's successor will need to inherit Goku's fighting spirt, drive for improvement and knack for stirring up trouble. From what we've seen of Super/Z Pan, I think she inherited all of these qualities from Grandpa Goku, but I think she needs to start off as part of the group first to establish herself as a unique character. Kid Goku had Bulma and his friends to play off and it still took him a while to find his feet and direction as a character. I think she has the right traits to follow in his footsteps, but the fans' willingness to accept that is a different story.

[ABED]

I wouldn't mind seeing Goku train his granddaughter, but seeing her take the central role doesn't work unless it's as a coda.

[Chuquita]

Without Goku and Vegeta I'd be going weeks/months without bothering to watch Super at all.

If or when Gokû and Vegeta are replaced, I'll stop watching the show.

That's what I've been doing since Bulla was born. DB isn't the same without Vegeta.

Most people will. If they want to kill the franchise then that's the way to do it.

Vegeta's three month absence really tempted me into dropping the series. I agree it isn't the same without him. If they'd vanished Gokû too I'd have stopped altogether.

I'm more used to Gokû disappearing for weeks on end via Z, but Vegeta is such a constant that I feel it when he's gone or in February through April's case, inactive.

Super's a case where I'm more invested in the characters than I am the world they're in and if they replace those characters there isn't enough left for me to hold onto to continue watching.

[Goe]

I know, I mean that if they had to pick someone to be it then Vegeta is the most workable cause he's been the 2nd main character of the story since the Buu arc, he's had the most character development after Goku and has had the 2nd most important screen time after Goku.

The DB scheme, since Piccolo Daimaoh saga, is something like:

1. Some evil guys appear, and the main character and his allies must join to fight them.
2. One of that evil guys is more dangerous than the others, but finally is defeated.
3. Some time later, other evil guys appear, and one of them is more dangerous than the others, but this new evil guy is even stronger than the main villain of the previous saga, and the fight is even harder than the previous, but finally is defeated.
4. Return to point 3
5. Return to point 3 again...and again, and again

Vegeta, once he became a good guy (even he keeps being serious and rude) has more posibilities to replace Goku than when he was evil. However, if an old Z warrior like Vegeta take over the series, the scheme would be the same as always since Piccolo Daimaoh saga, and I think DB should be renewed. Don't misunderstand me, I love all DB story since Goku met Bulma until he went to Oob's home. I think that sagas were interesting even the same scheme were used in all of them, because Toriyama renewed the story in each saga with new data and characters...but I think we need to change the scheme to refresh DB.

If Vegeta take over the series, a new evil guys will appear, and at least one of them would be even stronger than Majin Boo. Then, Vegeta and his mates will go to fight agains that menace, and of course Goku will join Vegeta...so with Vegeta as main character after Boo saga would be similar to previous sagas.

For that reason, I think using an old Z warrior (Vegeta, Piccolo, Krillin, Gohan, etc) as the new main character is a way to stuck in the past, and we need new blood as main characters.

He tried to have Gohan takeover and it didn't work. He didn't like it and the audience didn't respond as well. How is what I wrote illogical? There's idea and then there's execution. They aren't one in the same. There is the idea of the next generation taking over and then there's them actually taking over.

1. When he tried with Gohan as main character, we were in 1995, and we are in 2017, so circunstances have changed. In 1995, we weren't fed up of new Goku's stories with low quality and Goku still gave a little more of himself
2. I don't say the idea of DB fans disliking another character taking over the series is illogical. I say that being fan of an idea that you don't want come true isn't logical...and you have said lot of people are fans of an idea that they don't want come true

[ABED]

1. When he tried with Gohan as main character, we were in 1995, and we are in 2017, so circunstances have changed. In 1995, we weren't fed up of new Goku's stories with low quality and Goku still gave a little more of himself
2. I don't say the idea of DB fans disliking another character taking over the series is illogical. I say that being fan of an idea that you don't want come true isn't logical...and you have said lot of people are fans of an idea that they don't want come true

1. Having someone else take over isn't the only solution.
2. I'm having trouble understanding you. I said people are fans of ideas, but execution is another matter. I never said they are fans of an idea they don't want to see come true.

[Boo Machine]

As long as they can bring some of that wackiness of the Original Dragonball then sure.

It's hard to imagine anyone but Goku as the lead role, but if they're going to keep this franchise going, then try some crazy radical shit.

Not that Pan being main character is what I'd call crazy and or radical.

Trying to do that is what killed GT, DB is has been known for its action and huge scale fights since Z and trying to go back before that will hurt the franchise and story.

That's what they're doing with the 12 universe.

Replacing Goku with an unknown female character is as crazy as you can go with this franchise and that's saying a lot.

That's silly. What killed GT was that it got boring after a while and they didn't make their ideas that interesting to follow. Plus the general Dragonball Fatigue that was already happening at the time. An Idea doesn't kill the story, the way it's used does. Dragonball maybe known for it's Big spectacular fights, but that isn't all there is to it. Not every confrontation needs to be a planet busting slug fest to be interesting. Which is why, just because they tried it once and arguably failed doesn't mean the idea HAS to be dead. It just means that if they wanted to go that route they would have to do things differently. That's the cool thing about failure. You get to learn from it.

I wouldn't call the 12 universes fighting Crazy and radical. It just seems to be the logical route to go after introducing them. It would have been crazy to introduce them and never use them.

Pan isn't unknown. She isn't high profile, but she has connections to the series already.

All this makes me sounds like I'm fighting for the idea of Pan being main character. I'm not really, I'm just saying it would be interesting to see how it plays out.

[sintzu]

I'm more invested in the characters than I am the world they're in.

Same here, the world was never as interesting as the characters and they're what keeps everything going. without them it might as well be a completely different show.

[ABED]

Same here. I don't find world building that interesting outside of how it affects the story, characters, and having SOME sense of history. A great example of that is the little mention of the Clone Wars in Episode 4. It's a throwaway line like you or I if we talked about the Gulf War or Vietnam. It's specific and gives enough of a sense that the world has history, but it doesn't bog the story down in superfluous detail.

[DBZAOTA482]

With Pan it depends on which one we're talking about. EoZ Pan seemed a lot of fun, dbs Pan feels like she'll become EoZ Pan, but GT Pan was such a reverse of EoZ's personality and I didn't like that. I like tsundere Videl, but not tsundere Pan.

I'd like to see Pan and Bra as the replacements for Goten and Trunks, but not for Gokû. I really like her interactions with him, but I don't want her to replace him.

Gokû's the only reason I'm following this Omni Tournament arc. Without him and Vegeta I'd be going weeks/months without bothering to watch Super at all.

If or when Gokû and Vegeta are replaced, I'll stop watching the show.

I'm not sure you can even call Pan's attitude in GT "tsundere". She just seems bratty.

[ABED]

Well, she's a young girl, but she does eventually warm up to Giru. I wish they had gone further with her arc, though. As is, it feels interrupted and incomplete.