Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

Honestly, it makes sense with my own personal scaling, assuming Kale's base form is anywhere at all close to her peers.

I figure Kale in Base form comes up quite short compared to the others. It might have been the position she was in but she was completely overpowered by Napapa, who was possibly below Basil, who was somewhat below Base Goku.

She also had trouble with that one scrub.

A weakling like her is somewhat below Base Goku who's with (very conservative estimates) somewhere around Fat Boo's power. This is why people don't like U6 Saiyan's.

[dbgtFO]

From the looks of it, SSBeserk Kale looks to definitely be a god-level fighter. Honestly, it makes sense with my own personal scaling, assuming Kale's base form is anywhere at all close to her peers.

If I'm remembering correctly, SS Broly was only equal to the base Saiyans, then steamrolls the Super Saiyans in LSS. That, and my own personal headcanon is that SSBerserker is the same form as SSRage, albeit out of control and significantly powered up.

This, of course, also assumes the base Saiyans are super-strong and not weak like some people think.

Clearly god-level tier. She couldn't even hurt SS2 Goku (or damage his clothes, for that matter), but I think she's right there with the High Priest. With a bit of luck she could even take out one of the Zen-ohs.
[spoiler]







[/spoiler]

Exactly. How people can't see that Goku was holding back even in ss2 is beyond me. He let out a bit more power with blue, but he controlled it and lowered it too test out kale and see what she could do. He took zero damage and wants to challenge jiren, says it all.
I put kale at ss2 level, but with an uncontrolled anger, that pushes her forward, even when out matched.

You screwed up the tags, brah. Move the "end quote" tag, you have before the "end spoiler" tag after the last image and put it after the "end spoiler" tag and it will be fixed.

[Bullza]

Well I'm still hoping Final Form Frieza can be the key to tell us how strong the Base Saiyans are supposed to be.

I wish he'd fight Caulifla or Cabba because that'd tell you everything then. He'd either match them in Base form proving there is just one Base or he'd stomp them as Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 confirming there was two Bases.

Up to yet he has stomped everyone he's come across but that's only been like two people one of which was Napapa who gave Kale a hard time and Super Saiyan Caulifla shrugged to stop his momentum.

[Liquir]

It doesn't make any sense. Why are the writers not following what is already stated. In episode 92 It was stated that Nigrisshi from Universe 3 to be the greatest modified warrior from that Universe, meaning one of strongest from that Universe, if not the strongest. If so, how could Cabba defeat him in Base Form with one punch? If it was another character from Universe 3 I could understand but it was specifically said that Nigrisshi is the greatest Warrior from Universe 3.

[Bullza]

It doesn't make any sense. Why are the writers not following what is already stated. In episode 92 It was stated that Nigrisshi from Universe 3 to be the greatest modified warrior from that Universe, meaning one of strongest from that Universe, if not the strongest. If so, how could Cabba defeat him in Base Form with one punch? If it was another character from Universe 3 I could understand but it was specifically said that Nigrisshi is the greatest Warrior from Universe 3.

Maybe the folk in Universe 3 are just wimps in comparison. Bergamo was the strongest warrior from Universe 9 and he was weaker than Base Form too, not to the extent that he was beaten with one punch though.

It is keeping the power of Super Saiyan more worthwhile that way I suppose. Of all the 23 fighters who have been knocked out so far none of them appear to be anything above Base Form level.

It's also putting them on the same general level of Krillin and Tien, who people kept undermining before as being too useless and weak but they actually are amongst the most powerful beings in the universe.

[Marlowe89]

I'm trying to make sense of the Nigrisshi thing too. Does it mean Universe 3's fighters are just that weak? Or was Episode 92's dialogue simply an error? If the former is the case, that would make U3 as a whole vastly weaker than even U9.

The show is already focusing on the Pride Troopers next week, so we may not get to see much from most of the competing universes beyond getting reduced to fodder in order to showcase what the more important characters are capable of. I don't think I'd like that very much, but I do think it's within the realm of possibility.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'm trying to make sense of the Nigrisshi thing too. Does it mean Universe 3's fighters are just that weak? Or was Episode 92's dialogue simply an error? If the former is the case, that would make U3 as a whole vastly weaker than even U9.

The show is already focusing on the Pride Troopers next week, so we may not get to see much from most of the competing universes beyond getting reduced to fodder in order to showcase what the more important characters are capable of. I don't think I'd like that very much, but I do think it's within the realm of possibility.

The way I see it, Majin Buu is still a major power milestone throughout the Universes. With most of the base Saiyans being at such a level (in my personal opinion, anyways), it keeps his rampage special and gauges most fighters below his paygrade.

[Bullza]

Well if you think about it, if this Tournament has happened 20 years ago then the Universe 7 Team would have consisted of Frieza, King Cold, the Ginyu Force, Zarbon, Dodoria and either Nail or Yakon probably.

Maybe some of these other Universes and fighters are more comparable to that kind of level. Maybe the whole Super Saiyan, Android, Genie thing they got going on in Universe 7 is also uniquely powerful across the other Universes too.

[Draconic]

Deflecting Ki blasts means nothing. To give a Broly example, Piccolo deflects the attack meant to kill Gohan with a basic ki blast yet he's nowhere near as strong as him. It's exactly the same situation here. SSJ2 Caulifla deflects the blast meant to kill Cabba... and the fight ends. The two don't get measured up in any way.

What this episode proves is that Kale is stronger than 2, but weaker than Blue Goku, who was unphased by her attacks and jumped right into a fight with Jiren, who he saw taking her out like it was nothing. Goku is not going to go SSJ3 since that's shit at conserving stamina and can put up such power in Blue without much effort. I think she probably falls into that category, between 3 and Blue, but nowhere near the full capabilities of the God forms.

Her feats put her near Ultimate Gohan, since their showings are nearly identical against Goku so that's the most confortable spot to place her in.

[dbgtFO]

What this episode proves is that Kale is stronger than 2, but weaker than Blue Goku, who was unphased by her attacks and jumped right into a fight with Jiren, who he saw taking her out like it was nothing. Goku is not going to go SSJ3 since that's shit at conserving stamina and can put up such power in Blue without much effort. I think she probably falls into that category, between 3 and Blue, but nowhere near the full capabilities of the God forms.

Her feats put her near Ultimate Gohan, since their showings are nearly identical against Goku so that's the most confortable spot to place her in.

They didn't even fight properly, but your conclusion is Kale < Blue, when all we are shown is massively in favor of Kale, who walked through the Kamehameha and was about to smash, until she lost control of her power?
Goku still has Kaio-ken, so he could be banking on that against Jiren for all we know.

[Marlowe89]

Well if you think about it, if this Tournament has happened 20 years ago then the Universe 7 Team would have consisted of Frieza, King Cold, the Ginyu Force, Zarbon, Dodoria and either Nail or Yakon probably.

Maybe some of these other Universes and fighters are more comparable to that kind of level. Maybe the whole Super Saiyan, Android, Genie thing they got going on in Universe 7 is also uniquely powerful across the other Universes too.

Yeah, I'm actually more inclined to believe Namek Saga Frieza is the power milestone for many of these Universes rather than Majin Buu.

Either way, if Nigrisshi really is the best that Universe 3 has to offer then that should make Universe 9 considerably superior in strength. The latter's fighters were able to give the base Saiyans a good degree of trouble, even individually -- at absolutely no point during any of their interactions were Goku and Vegeta able to have a significant advantage against any of them in base, yet Cabba just casually oneshots Nigrisshi like he's nothing even with an additional fighter closing in on him.

Nigrisshi was called the strongest "modified" warrior, but if there was any viewer-imposed misunderstanding on some level, the other Universe 3 fighters are plausibly stronger than him. It could be noteworthy that he was one of the first fighters on that team to go out, after all.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Watched the episode subbed now.

Base Cabba beat down Nigrisshi with no effort whatsoever. I'm sure they said he was the strongest from Universe 3, doesn't say much for that Universe.

Goku just said he was gonna let out more power, not a little more power when he went Blue.

Kale must be pretty damn powerful if just shouting was able to destroy some of that Kachi Katchin metal.

In fact, Goku speaks "choto" which means "a little". But I think the Crunchyroll translation did not see this

[SansrivaaL]

Watched the episode subbed now.

Base Cabba beat down Nigrisshi with no effort whatsoever. I'm sure they said he was the strongest from Universe 3, doesn't say much for that Universe.

Goku just said he was gonna let out more power, not a little more power when he went Blue.

Kale must be pretty damn powerful if just shouting was able to destroy some of that Kachi Katchin metal.

In fact, Goku speaks "choto" which means "a little". But I think the Crunchyroll translation did not see this

Woulda been "dondon reki ireteikuzo/motto reki ireteikuzo" right trans is "I'm gonna put in a little more ki /power now"

[avasatu]

I'm trying to make sense of the Nigrisshi thing too. Does it mean Universe 3's fighters are just that weak? Or was Episode 92's dialogue simply an error? If the former is the case, that would make U3 as a whole vastly weaker than even U9.

The show is already focusing on the Pride Troopers next week, so we may not get to see much from most of the competing universes beyond getting reduced to fodder in order to showcase what the more important characters are capable of. I don't think I'd like that very much, but I do think it's within the realm of possibility.

The way I see it, Majin Buu is still a major power milestone throughout the Universes. With most of the base Saiyans being at such a level (in my personal opinion, anyways), it keeps his rampage special and gauges most fighters below his paygrade.

The base Saiyans are above Buu arc Ultimate Gohan. SS1 Gohan 2 shots Tagoma, who is Ultimate Gohan Buu arc level, and then base Vegeta easily one shots Ginyu Tagoma.

[TobyS]

I'm trying to make sense of the Nigrisshi thing too. Does it mean Universe 3's fighters are just that weak? Or was Episode 92's dialogue simply an error? If the former is the case, that would make U3 as a whole vastly weaker than even U9.

The show is already focusing on the Pride Troopers next week, so we may not get to see much from most of the competing universes beyond getting reduced to fodder in order to showcase what the more important characters are capable of. I don't think I'd like that very much, but I do think it's within the realm of possibility.

The way I see it, Majin Buu is still a major power milestone throughout the Universes. With most of the base Saiyans being at such a level (in my personal opinion, anyways), it keeps his rampage special and gauges most fighters below his paygrade.

The base Saiyans are above Buu arc Ultimate Gohan. SS1 Gohan 2 shots Tagoma, who is Ultimate Gohan Buu arc level, and then base Vegeta easily one shots Ginyu Tagoma.

No this has been debunked by, I think, Herms? Gohan saying Tagoma was as strong as him at his best meant in Japanese, like "on a goody day" not the "best I've ever been" He was comparing Tagoma to his current max not his lifetime max.

Otherwise he couldn't have taken down an ultimate tier enemy in SSJ1, even if you think SSJ1 allowed him to access most of him ult power, he woulnd't be one shotting someone equal to that. And SSJ1 Gotenks wouldn't have done any damage either.

[Marlowe89]

Tagoma isn't touching Ultimate Gohan in any capacity whatsoever and anyone who paid attention to the RoF arc would know that. Likewise, Super Saiyan Gohan from RoF isn't touching Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan either, as we know quite well from recent episodes.

All we know about Tagoma's power is that he was stronger than RoF Piccolo, aside from that he'd just get stomped by Gotenks even on a good day.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I think the Super Saiyan forms are stacked like this now in terms of power:

SSBerserker > SSBlue = SSRose = SSRage > SBG = SSGod Radiance = SSGod >>> SS3 > SS2 > SS1 Grade 4 > SS1 Grade 3 > SS1 Grade 2 > SS1

I am not sure where to put SSB KK though. It is either greater than SSBerserker or equal to it.

Do you have some tables? Because I really need to flip some about now..

How was SS2 cauliflowa able to smack around kales blast? How did SS cabba mange to put up somewhat of a fight against her, how did SS and SS2 goku do better than SSB goku against her..
How does she exist..
You might as well put SSBKK below oozaru now, apparently the more he powers up the weaker he becomes

Kale as SSBerserker in episode 93 was her pissed off (power not at 100%). Kale as SSBerserker in episode 100 was her livid (power at 100%). The way Caulifla scoffed her in this episode and her sis's obsession with Goku pushed her WAY further than just a convo with Cabba.

I think the Super Saiyan forms are stacked like this now in terms of power:

SSBerserker > SSBlue = SSRose = SSRage > SBG = SSGod Radiance = SSGod >>> SS3 > SS2 > SS1 Grade 4 > SS1 Grade 3 > SS1 Grade 2 > SS1

I am not sure where to put SSB KK though. It is either greater than SSBerserker or equal to it.

What? SSBerserker stronger than blue? Goku wasn't even trying and he never got hurt (not even in his SS2 form) and a while back Caulifla was able to effortlesly dodge a blast by Berserker Kale while in her SS2 form. Let's keep in mind Goku doesn't need to fight at his full power when transformed as a SSB (like when he fought Krillin, 17 and the Trio the Dangers). Furthermore, he needed to be very careful not to kill Kale, if he did he would have gotten disqualified.

You're kind of over-analyzing the nuances; saying that Goku was holding back can't be a justification for everything, bro. It was clear with Krillin he was holding back because he asked Krillin what he would do against SSBlue-level power. He wanted to gauge Krillin's confidence. Against #17 as an SSBlue, Goku states he was holding back. These two instances demonstrate he was not at full-power.

When Goku fought Ultimate Gohan right before the ToP, he went all out because SS2 could not cut it (and Gohan asked). When he fought Toppo, Super Saiyan could not cut it, so he used SSBlue.

He drove a point blank SSB Kamehameha to Toppo who became scratched up. SSBerserker Kale was strong enough to beat the shit out of SS2 Goku. She literally threw him like Hulk in the first Avengers movie. Goku transformed into SSBlue BECAUSE he needed to and BECAUSE she could take the power. She tanked a point blank SSB Kamehameha better than Toppo. These small things were to point us towards the fact that she was that strong.

[SansrivaaL]

I dont know how you got to the conclusion of Berserk>SSJB when Goku literally said he was just gonna put in a little more power.Goku using full power SSJB against Gohan makes more sense as he was supposedly giving Gohan his wish of going all out but people still view that as Goku holding back, but this time we get actual claim from Goku himself but people chooses to ignore it.

[HybridSaiyan]

"Holding back" Yeah, Goku's been holding back in every single fight he's ever been In. That's the excuse everyone uses when an opponent overpowers him lol.

[ZombieVito]

Well I'm still hoping Final Form Frieza can be the key to tell us how strong the Base Saiyans are supposed to be.

I wish he'd fight Caulifla or Cabba because that'd tell you everything then. He'd either match them in Base form proving there is just one Base or he'd stomp them as Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 confirming there was two Bases.

Up to yet he has stomped everyone he's come across but that's only been like two people one of which was Napapa who gave Kale a hard time and Super Saiyan Caulifla shrugged to stop his momentum.

But we already know how strong they are. They are weaker than Good Boo. How much is anyone's guess.

Boo > Drugged Basil > Goku > Basil.