Legitimate arguments for why the original manga has overall superior story telling?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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Re: Legitimate arguments for why the original manga has overall superior story telling?

Post by MR.Mark » Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:02 am

TheMikado wrote: AGAIN THE QUESTION WAS NOT WHAT PROBLEMS DO THEY BOTH HAVE.
Rather which is the superior writing. PERIOD.
WRONG, the topic is about legitimate arguments over why the manga has superior writing. Me using examples from the manga's writing to back up why OVERALL from a storytelling standpoint, Super isn't totally inferior. When in fact it's at times equal, if not simply different at times in style, not not necessarily consistently weaker.

For example I'd even say Freeza has had moments in Super that are better written than he's even been before in the manga.

No need to get ANGRY because I point out flaws in the manga.
kemuri07 wrote: DB AND DBZ ARE BOTH VASTLY SUPERIOR SHOWS TO SUPER. So it all comes down to this: Caulifa, like a l ot of the characters in Super, are terrible written which is throwing people off.
In your opinion not a fact. Also, Freeza being "Napoleon Space Hitler" is fine, but a little background over how he even came in his position of power wouldn't of hurt. Maybe one day Super will fix that. :thumbup:
lord turbo wrote:
MR.Mark wrote:Zamasu is one dimensional compared to Freeza how? So simply being raised by his father is enough? Seems like a lot of head canon on your part.
There's literally nothing more to Zamasu then "Rawggg kill all ningen" That's his entire character from start to finish
I guess I'll have to rewatch the part where he screams Rawggg kill all ningen when he was observing the ancient civilizations. That example is like saying all Freeza does is say "DIE MONKEYS, KILL PEOPLE ,HOHOHO"

When you quote me with answers like "beats the hell out of me" and a lot of "probably", that's not making your arguments look good at all.

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Re: Legitimate arguments for why the original manga has overall superior story telling?

Post by lord turbo » Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:30 am

MR.Mark wrote:I guess I'll have to rewatch the part where he screams Rawggg kill all ningen when he was observing the ancient civilizations. That example is like saying all Freeza does is say "DIE MONKEYS, KILL PEOPLE ,HOHOHO"
Do me a favor, explain what else is there to Zamasu besides "hate all ningen, they must all die" then.
MR.Mark wrote:When you quote me with answers like "beats the hell out of me" and a lot of "probably", that's not making your arguments look good at all.
You're kind of asking me some first grader type questions so I'm giving you first grader type answers in kind.

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Re: Legitimate arguments for why the original manga has overall superior story telling?

Post by MR.Mark » Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:38 am

Delving into the lore is first grader type questions? I thought my idea of Bobadi being banished from a kingdom was pretty cool actually, more thought put into it than Toriyama anyway. :lol:

As for Zamasu, off the top of my head, he is very calm and collected, has a strong sense of justice, and likes to drink tea. He was humble until his encounter with Goku began his decline into madness and a God complex.

Did Freeza drink tea? NOOOO all he drank is unidentifiable space wine (or was that filler?).


Also Unlike Freeza Zamasu beleives in his heart that he is doing the right thing.

We've had many evil for the sake of evil villains.

We also had even more villains/ flawed people turn to good characters

But has Dragon Ball had many good/decent people turned evil type of characters? Not to my recollection.

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Re: Legitimate arguments for why the original manga has overall superior story telling?

Post by MaskedRider » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:26 am

lord turbo wrote:Do me a favor, explain what else is there to Zamasu besides "hate all ningen, they must all die" then.
Where is that Merged Zamasu user when you need him :lol: Zamasu is a God supremacist. He didn't develop his disdain for mortals just like that. He watched Goku fighting in the tournament with Universe Six and thought it was wrong that he achieved power equal to the Gods as it was not his place as a mortal to have such thing; only adds insult to injury that the same person defeats you and start to think how dangerous it is for beings that are supposed to be on a lower level than you can overcome you despite your divine position in the cosmos. Zamasu also felt offended that, despite being gifted knowledge by the Gods, the mortals on the planet he visited would rather act barbaric toward one another.

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Re: Legitimate arguments for why the original manga has overall superior story telling?

Post by lord turbo » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:51 pm

MaskedRider wrote:
lord turbo wrote:Do me a favor, explain what else is there to Zamasu besides "hate all ningen, they must all die" then.
Where is that Merged Zamasu user when you need him :lol: Zamasu is a God supremacist. He didn't develop his disdain for mortals just like that. He watched Goku fighting in the tournament with Universe Six and thought it was wrong that he achieved power equal to the Gods as it was not his place as a mortal to have such thing; only adds insult to injury that the same person defeats you and start to think how dangerous it is for beings that are supposed to be on a lower level than you can overcome you despite your divine position in the cosmos. Zamasu also felt offended that, despite being gifted knowledge by the Gods, the mortals on the planet he visited would rather act barbaric toward one another.
Zamasu was already troubled and had a disdain for mortals before he met or knew of Goku's existence. In his first debut after sparring with Kibito Gowasu mentions there's things about Zamasu that worries him, showing signs of going to far when he has to be told that's enough, similar to in the anime where he has to be told to stop before striking his opponent when he met Goku. His fair response to hearing how Kaioshin and kibito had helped from mortal to beat Majin Buu is to condescending laugh as if its a joke going as if those little mere mortals could ever hope to surpass us gods, its outlandish.

Kibito corrects him saying its true with Zamasu in disbelief asking he's pulling his leg, Kaioshin further explains it to be true, and says probably the best decision was to leave in the hands of the GoD with Zamasu immediately correcting him saying "Nah brah, you made the right decision" as if divine beings can't be wrong and further adds all unnecessary beings should be done away with, our Kaioshin goes "Unnecessary beings?" We further learn about the issue what's inside of Zamasu when he nonchantantly says to wipe out an entire race of beings just because of the actions of a few. its identical to saying all black people are crooked because a few of them robbed stores and killed people. That's exactly how Zamasu sees things, so hilariously narrow-minded and childish view points he can't be taken seriously.

Moments after meeting this character we already find out he's secretly an douche bag that thinks to highly of himself and very patronizing and loathing of non-divine/mortal beings. He first sees Gowasu dead at Black's feet and Black mentions, you wanted to murder this guy too right, here, take this and you are now a Kaioshin. Zamasu agrees and immediately accepts the potara and instantly accepts this guy is him from the past and goes along with the zero mortal plan without even questioning it or asking if this is a test or something by higher beings? Even when called out and his heinous acts by our Kaioshin and disgusted by his peers, superiors, and a mortal he says "what I did wasn't murder, it was just justice you fools."

People don't just change overnite/at the drop of an hat like that without cause. Zamasu was always rotten and despicable, he was just well at hiding his evil dark malicious intentions. Zamasu is a 1 dimensional hypocritical poorly written antagonist in DBS, probably the worst villain as far as characterization and goals go in Dragon Ball.
MR.Mark wrote:Delving into the lore is first grader type questions? I thought my idea of Bobadi being banished from a kingdom was pretty cool actually, more thought put into it than Toriyama anyway. :lol:
I'm talking about your questions that are akinned to asking why are Puar and Oolong talking antrhomorphic animals, why is are Namekians green, why don't Bulma's parents ever age? Why does Bulma have an older sister, why are their hover cards, why is Yamcha out in the desert, why is Piccolo green, why are their mermaid, where did that talking dolphin come from, why do Saiyans have black hair? They are so insignificant and irrelevant I have wonder if you're intentionally doing obfuscating stupidity
MR.Mark wrote:As for Zamasu, off the top of my head, he is very calm and collected, has a strong sense of justice, and likes to drink tea. He was humble until his encounter with Goku began his decline into madness and a God complex.
When I said what is there more to him than his zero mortal ideas I was talking about his character in general, not traits such as he's quite, like to drink think, and talk about "his justice", and etc.
MR.Mark wrote:Did Freeza drink tea? NOOOO all he drank is unidentifiable space wine (or was that filler?).
Until recently Freeza was pretty 1 dimensional as well.

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Re: Legitimate arguments for why the original manga has overall superior story telling?

Post by MR.Mark » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:28 pm

lord turbo wrote:
MaskedRider wrote: obfuscating stupidity
I'd get that checked, sounds kinda nasty whatever that is.

Why is the sky green? Oh wait that's the Dragon Boxes nvm.

Seriously though Bulma's parents never aging is a legitimate complaint, it's very lazy and we all just kinda except it.

As for the animal people, id say that's another thing Super did better, as they were never really that interesting. Then we get the likes of Beerus, the Trio De Dangers, and other buff bad ass looking beasties from other universes.

I mean, I guess bear guy (I think) that Goku one shoted protecting Roshi's turtle was sorta cool.

Once again, Zamasu was interesting because he was a Kaioshin in training that fell from grace. He didn't start out evil for the sake of it, and for Dragon Ball, that was cool.

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Re: Legitimate arguments for why the original manga has overall superior story telling?

Post by gohan_black » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:48 am

the manga of super is terrible

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Re: Legitimate arguments for why the original manga has overall superior story telling?

Post by emperior » Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:01 am

The only thing which will always make Super inferior to the original manga is the fact it's written by more people, which causes power levels problems and also characters acting a little different from episode to episode. That's all. As for the stories, that's personal preference but no one can deny Super has some characterization and power scaling problems. Though they are not as bad as some people claim.
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Re: Legitimate arguments for why the original manga has overall superior story telling?

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:31 am

lord turbo wrote:
MaskedRider wrote:
lord turbo wrote:Do me a favor, explain what else is there to Zamasu besides "hate all ningen, they must all die" then.
Where is that Merged Zamasu user when you need him :lol: Zamasu is a God supremacist. He didn't develop his disdain for mortals just like that. He watched Goku fighting in the tournament with Universe Six and thought it was wrong that he achieved power equal to the Gods as it was not his place as a mortal to have such thing; only adds insult to injury that the same person defeats you and start to think how dangerous it is for beings that are supposed to be on a lower level than you can overcome you despite your divine position in the cosmos. Zamasu also felt offended that, despite being gifted knowledge by the Gods, the mortals on the planet he visited would rather act barbaric toward one another.
Zamasu was already troubled and had a disdain for mortals before he met or knew of Goku's existence. In his first debut after sparring with Kibito Gowasu mentions there's things about Zamasu that worries him, showing signs of going to far when he has to be told that's enough, similar to in the anime where he has to be told to stop before striking his opponent when he met Goku. His fair response to hearing how Kaioshin and kibito had helped from mortal to beat Majin Buu is to condescending laugh as if its a joke going as if those little mere mortals could ever hope to surpass us gods, its outlandish.

Kibito corrects him saying its true with Zamasu in disbelief asking he's pulling his leg, Kaioshin further explains it to be true, and says probably the best decision was to leave in the hands of the GoD with Zamasu immediately correcting him saying "Nah brah, you made the right decision" as if divine beings can't be wrong and further adds all unnecessary beings should be done away with, our Kaioshin goes "Unnecessary beings?" We further learn about the issue what's inside of Zamasu when he nonchantantly says to wipe out an entire race of beings just because of the actions of a few. its identical to saying all black people are crooked because a few of them robbed stores and killed people. That's exactly how Zamasu sees things, so hilariously narrow-minded and childish view points he can't be taken seriously.

Moments after meeting this character we already find out he's secretly an douche bag that thinks to highly of himself and very patronizing and loathing of non-divine/mortal beings. He first sees Gowasu dead at Black's feet and Black mentions, you wanted to murder this guy too right, here, take this and you are now a Kaioshin. Zamasu agrees and immediately accepts the potara and instantly accepts this guy is him from the past and goes along with the zero mortal plan without even questioning it or asking if this is a test or something by higher beings? Even when called out and his heinous acts by our Kaioshin and disgusted by his peers, superiors, and a mortal he says "what I did wasn't murder, it was just justice you fools."

People don't just change overnite/at the drop of an hat like that without cause. Zamasu was always rotten and despicable, he was just well at hiding his evil dark malicious intentions. Zamasu is a 1 dimensional hypocritical poorly written antagonist in DBS, probably the worst villain as far as characterization and goals go in Dragon Ball.
Zamasu is a far more complicated villain than people give him credit for, at least in the anime. I've gone into detail about his character in the past and why he's such a great villain, so I'll juts rephrase myself:
[spoiler]People often complain that Zamasu had no real backstory, but I disagree with that. While he was shown to be a Kaioshin, Zamasu cared greatly enough for the development and prosperity of the universe, that Zamasu often questioned the worth of mortals and didn't believe in their ability to handle conflict as they were prone to commence war in a repeated cycle. And given the events that transpired in the main story, he has a very valid point. The Kaioshin of Universe 7 stood by and watched Freeza terrorize most of the galaxy for God knows how long before Goku and Future Trunks took care of him. It's made even worse by the fact the Kaioshin were strong enough to defeat Freeza with one blow, but they still stood by and did nothing. Then you take into consideration that the events of the Android/Cell arc and the Majin Boo arc happened on purely through the arrogance and selfishness of the main cast. He also did not agree with how the Kaioshin would not be more directly involved in mortals' actions like the Gods of Destruction, and scoffs at the idea that mortals can be trusted to handle important matters, let alone rival the might of gods.

The moment with him him and Gowasu travelling to the Babarians world was huge turning point in his character. Because if he ever needed more fuel to add to his argument of how dangerous and unruly mortals could be, that was it. Zamasu claimed that they should destroy the planet because they will never learn to be civilized, to which Gowasu is shocked by this response and in an attempt to prove him wrong, Gowasu and Zamasu travel 1000 years to the future, only to find out that the civilisation has not advanced from the small culture it originally was, and the race as whole still remained hostile, angry and aggressive race, as the same two of the Babarians are seen fighting. And just to add the cherry on top, one of the Babarians tries to attack Zamasu and Gowasu at first glance. But what made scene all the more poignant was the look of shock on Zamasu face after he cut the Babarian in half. He didn't evilly grin and manically laugh like a person that would be jumping down the route of evil would. He was just seemed more taken aback that his natural instinct would lead him to do such a thing even in the extreme circumstance. It's those little detail that may not seem to matter but they really do so much for the perspective of his character and story. Zamasu may have resented mortals and may have been very judgmental of their worth in the grand scope of the universe, but the concept of actually killing them with his own hands was still a foreign idea to him.

Meeting Goku was where his character officially went off the deep end. After meeting Goku however and losing to him quickly in a sparring match, his views radically changed and his distrustful nature towards mortals only grew. Annoyed at Goku's carefree attitude and lack of respect, his distaste for the Gods not quelling the dangerous nature of mortals evolved from petty resentment and judgement to a full blown radicalism against all who are not Gods. Shocked at how a mortal like Goku could gain a power rivaling gods, let alone even obtaining such power in the first place, and so recklessly and cavalierly challenging a God to only defeat him easily, Zamasu came to sternly believe that mortal life by nature is an chaotic and evil and must be dealt with swiftly.

Goku Black and Future Zamasu is the embodiment of Zamasu basically giving into the his dark side and goes through with his plan to be a more active Kaioshin and try set right what he thinks has been done wrong by other Kiaoshin standing back and letting mortal create all kinds of havoc. He is extremely sadistic, as well as savage in battle and also relishes the opportunity to test his new power or abilities, but also shown to be very pragmatic is his way of achieving his Zero Mortals Plan, never lost his composure when things didn't go his way, was also so formal with his speech pattern, and never wasted an opportunity to display his superiority complex and his plan to create a utopia by eliminating all mortals. And he never wasted an opportunity to display his superiority complex and his fixation on beauty. But what was so unique Goku Black was that, despite his appearance, he wasn't necessarily "Evil Goku" to even begin with. Goku Black was his own unique character with his own wonderful quirks.

Merged Zamasu is basically the accumulation of all the arrogance and self-entitlement of Goku Black and Future Zamasu. He literally sees himself as the embodiment of justice and having delusions of grandeur. His belief that he is truly this supreme God of justice that will create an new utopia for the universe even drive him to tears, as his feeling of responsibility to set everything right that he thinks is wrong overwhelms him emotionally. Of course, once Vegetto and later Future Trunks prove to be too much of a match for him, Merged Zamasu is reduced to nothing more the equivalent of a deranged madman swinging around a axe and butcher's knife at the same time. Constantly screaming and attacking with more savagery and fury than before and grinning like a psychopath, while making outrageous declarations of Godhood. It was at that point that Zamasu's descent into darkness had gone full circle, as he had officially become just as destructive, violent, aggressive and unhinged as the mortals he vilified and believed the universe would be better without. Of course, the dramatic irony of the situation never became apparent to him, as Zamasu still saw himself as the saviour the universe needed and wanted. Even in his death, his immortal soul and conscious spread across the world, the universe, the multiverse and even throughout timelines. Showing that even with no physically body to carry out his deeds, his spiritual body still feels compelled to become one with order and justice. If there's one thing you can't deny Zamasu had, it was dedication to his cause.

I think some people don't have a proper grasp of Zamasu's goals or motives, because Zamasu is actually a very complicated character. At the start, you see a young, bashful and down-to-earth Kaioshin who ultimately calls a spade a spade and knows of just how dangerous mortals can be and openly questions the system that he is a part of. He feels, given the role he has, that he doesn't have the true freedom of doing enough to curb the continuing cycle of violence that is tarnishing the imagine of the universe he is meant to protect and look over. Zamasu was clearing getting tired of being a bystander and actually wanted to be an active role as a Kaioshin and instead of just watching mayhem spontaneously unfold before him, and that is what makes his fall from grace all the more raw and amazing to watch. He had good intentions for the sake of his universe but the fashion of which he went about them became more extreme with how events would later unfold, such as him visiting the Babarians planet and encountering Goku. It's what makes him quite an awesome villain, and even to a degree, quite a tragic character. Because he wasn't really evil to begin with. He was just jaded and disillusioned by what he saw and what he knew and took matters into his own hands.

So... yeah. Zamasu is awesome. He is a fantastically written villain, and has many layers to him and which make him, in my humble opinion, the best written antagonist and overall character the franchise has ever produced.[/spoiler]

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Re: Legitimate arguments for why the original manga has overall superior story telling?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:03 pm

^ That was a good description of the character, but it's also an example as to why he's a terribly written one. Rather, he had the potential to be well-written based on everything you wrote, but the execution made him fall short of this. Zamasu is the sort of villain that needed to be fleshed out and developed a lot more. Like, they could have introduced him as a spectator at the Champa tournament prior to this. Reason being, all the events that transpired happened within days. DAYS. And all of a sudden, he snaps. But before any of this occurred, everyone was already deducing that Zamasu was Black due to his constant glares and questioning of humanity the minute he was introduced. Remember, this is a Kaioshin; he's been alive for thousands of years and was stated to be a Kaio prior to this occupation, so him quickly going batshit insane just didn't feel believable or natural. He seemed like your average run of the mill villain, as opposed to someone who actually cared about his universe. Add to the fact that he's later seen destroying and burning the world while praising its collapse/beauty. In the case of Black, this is fine, as the saiyan genes could have been stated to corrupt his mindset, but they continued to display Zamasu as a diabolical villain as well. Was the hypocrisy deliberate? Very likely, but it did not help Zamasu's character at all. Well, in the sense of being empathetic with him, anyways.

He was a poor man's Aizen. A character created to be seen as more "complex" than other DB villains, but this was all smokes and mirrors. Zamasu is as basic as they come-- no different from Vaccine Man from the first episode of One Punch Man.
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Re: Legitimate arguments for why the original manga has overall superior story telling?

Post by Doctor. » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:20 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:He was a poor man's Aizen.
Aizen was bad, though.

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Re: Legitimate arguments for why the original manga has overall superior story telling?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:36 pm

Doctor. wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:He was a poor man's Aizen.
Aizen was bad, though.
I never said he was good. ;0
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super

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Re: Legitimate arguments for why the original manga has overall superior story telling?

Post by Doctor. » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:46 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:He was a poor man's Aizen.
Aizen was bad, though.
I never said he was good. ;0
Yeah, but, like, Aizen was so bad that when you call Zamasu a poor man's Aizen, the scale breaks and Zamasu becomes good.

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Re: Legitimate arguments for why the original manga has overall superior story telling?

Post by PeanutSaiyan » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:09 pm

Doctor. wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Aizen was bad, though.
I never said he was good. ;0
Yeah, but, like, Aizen was so bad that when you call Zamasu a poor man's Aizen, the scale breaks and Zamasu becomes good.
There is no comparison. Aizen is leagues above Zamasu in terms of how he was written and developed. I thought Aizen's climax turned into dogsghit (but then again everything did after the Soul Society arc and even worse towards the end) but let's not pretend they are remotely in the same league.

Zamasu was a B villain who's only saving grace was his flashy alter ego as Black, who was also a shitty character but seemed to entertain the evil goku fans.

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Re: Legitimate arguments for why the original manga has overall superior story telling?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:34 pm

Doctor. wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Aizen was bad, though.
I never said he was good. ;0
Yeah, but, like, Aizen was so bad that when you call Zamasu a poor man's Aizen, the scale breaks and Zamasu becomes good.
I thought Aizen (and Bleach) was good until after the soul society arc, but he still intrigued and had a lot of cool moments afterwards. Unfortunately, it all culminated to shit, which pretty much ruined his entire character.
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Re: Legitimate arguments for why the original manga has overall superior story telling?

Post by MaskedRider » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:59 pm

Zamasu could have all the time he was alive to think little of mortals and think whatever of them but once Zamasu saw Goku possess divine ki he started looking offended that a being who should be leagues on a lower level than him be equal to him. Then this same being ends up sparring with him and overcomes Zamasu while being in shock and awe that he survived fighting a God of Destruction before the duel; If I were in Zamasu's position I could understand his thinking in that Goku is an example of the mistake of the Gods and that mortals having the potential to become dangerous if they achieved the same power as Goku has and start overcoming the Gods.

Him being hypocritical is what makes him who he is as a God supremacist because he is running on logic that we don't tolerate with what we consider as reasonable as humans. To us, the loss of lives and destruction of the world isn't beautiful but to Zamasu its seen as being purifying and majestic.

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Re: Legitimate arguments for why the original manga has overall superior story telling?

Post by PeanutSaiyan » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:05 pm

MaskedRider wrote:Zamasu could have all the time he was alive to think little of mortals and think whatever of them but once Zamasu saw Goku possess divine ki he started looking offended that a being who should be leagues on a lower level than him be equal to him. Then this same being ends up sparring with him and overcomes Zamasu while being in shock and awe that he survived fighting a God of Destruction before the duel; If I were in Zamasu's position I could understand his thinking in that Goku is an example of the mistake of the Gods and that mortals having the potential to become dangerous if they achieved the same power as Goku has and start overcoming the Gods.

Him being hypocritical is what makes him who he is as a God supremacist because he is running on logic that we don't tolerate with what we consider as reasonable as humans. To us, the loss of lives and destruction of the world isn't beautiful but to Zamasu its seen as being purifying and majestic.

Nobody is arguing that, we all know the mechanics behind Zamasu's character. But he is so underdeveloped, one note, and poorly executed that character defining moments like this are so incredibly weak and underwhelming to the point that it has almost no impact on the character himself or the narrative of the story. You can write a same by the numbers summary for Hit, who has had no character development at all (if you can even call him a character).

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Re: Legitimate arguments for why the original manga has overall superior story telling?

Post by MaskedRider » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:09 pm

PeanutSaiyan wrote:
MaskedRider wrote:Zamasu could have all the time he was alive to think little of mortals and think whatever of them but once Zamasu saw Goku possess divine ki he started looking offended that a being who should be leagues on a lower level than him be equal to him. Then this same being ends up sparring with him and overcomes Zamasu while being in shock and awe that he survived fighting a God of Destruction before the duel; If I were in Zamasu's position I could understand his thinking in that Goku is an example of the mistake of the Gods and that mortals having the potential to become dangerous if they achieved the same power as Goku has and start overcoming the Gods.

Him being hypocritical is what makes him who he is as a God supremacist because he is running on logic that we don't tolerate with what we consider as reasonable as humans. To us, the loss of lives and destruction of the world isn't beautiful but to Zamasu its seen as being purifying and majestic.

Nobody is arguing that, we all know the mechanics behind Zamasu's character. But he is so underdeveloped, one note, and poorly executed that character defining moments like this are so incredibly weak and underwhelming to the point that it has almost no impact on the character himself or the narrative of the story. You can write a same by the numbers summary for Hit, who has had no character development at all (if you can even call him a character).
Could you elaborate on having no impact on him and the narrative of the story

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Re: Legitimate arguments for why the original manga has overall superior story telling?

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:29 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:^ That was a good description of the character, but it's also an example as to why he's a terribly written one. Rather, he had the potential to be well-written based on everything you wrote, but the execution made him fall short of this. Zamasu is the sort of villain that needed to be fleshed out and developed a lot more. Like, they could have introduced him as a spectator at the Champa tournament prior to this. Reason being, all the events that transpired happened within days. DAYS. And all of a sudden, he snaps. But before any of this occurred, everyone was already deducing that Zamasu was Black due to his constant glares and questioning of humanity the minute he was introduced. Remember, this is a Kaioshin; he's been alive for thousands of years and was stated to be a Kaio prior to this occupation, so him quickly going batshit insane just didn't feel believable or natural. He seemed like your average run of the mill villain, as opposed to someone who actually cared about his universe. Add to the fact that he's later seen destroying and burning the world while praising its collapse/beauty. In the case of Black, this is fine, as the saiyan genes could have been stated to corrupt his mindset, but they continued to display Zamasu as a diabolical villain as well. Was the hypocrisy deliberate? Very likely, but it did not help Zamasu's character at all. Well, in the sense of being empathetic with him, anyways.

He was a poor man's Aizen. A character created to be seen as more "complex" than other DB villains, but this was all smokes and mirrors. Zamasu is as basic as they come-- no different from Vaccine Man from the first episode of One Punch Man.
There's no specific time-frame for which a character can lose their rational thinking and go off the deep end. The Joker lost his sanity in the span of one day. All the incarnations of Zamasu, Present Zamasu, Future Zamasu, Goku Black and Merged Zamasu represent different stages of Zamasu's character as whole. You see the young, bashful and down-to-earth Kaioshin who ultimately calls a spade a spade and knows of just how dangerous mortals can be and openly questions the system that he is a part of and became jaded and disillusioned by what he saw and what he knew. Then Goku Black and Future Zamasu provide the next stage of Zamasu's development by embodying the now much more deep rooted hatred for mortals, with him relishing in their destruction. Merged Zamasu is the culmination of Zamasu's character arc. He eventually morally degraded so much that what he became what he set out to destroy for a sake of what he though would be a better universe. I think Zamasu had a good amount of development for the time the Future Trunks arc lasted.

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Re: Legitimate arguments for why the original manga has overall superior story telling?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:29 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:^ That was a good description of the character, but it's also an example as to why he's a terribly written one. Rather, he had the potential to be well-written based on everything you wrote, but the execution made him fall short of this. Zamasu is the sort of villain that needed to be fleshed out and developed a lot more. Like, they could have introduced him as a spectator at the Champa tournament prior to this. Reason being, all the events that transpired happened within days. DAYS. And all of a sudden, he snaps. But before any of this occurred, everyone was already deducing that Zamasu was Black due to his constant glares and questioning of humanity the minute he was introduced. Remember, this is a Kaioshin; he's been alive for thousands of years and was stated to be a Kaio prior to this occupation, so him quickly going batshit insane just didn't feel believable or natural. He seemed like your average run of the mill villain, as opposed to someone who actually cared about his universe. Add to the fact that he's later seen destroying and burning the world while praising its collapse/beauty. In the case of Black, this is fine, as the saiyan genes could have been stated to corrupt his mindset, but they continued to display Zamasu as a diabolical villain as well. Was the hypocrisy deliberate? Very likely, but it did not help Zamasu's character at all. Well, in the sense of being empathetic with him, anyways.

He was a poor man's Aizen. A character created to be seen as more "complex" than other DB villains, but this was all smokes and mirrors. Zamasu is as basic as they come-- no different from Vaccine Man from the first episode of One Punch Man.
There's no specific time-frame for which a character can lose their rational thinking and go off the deep end. The Joker lost his sanity in the span of one day. All the incarnations of Zamasu, Present Zamasu, Future Zamasu, Goku Black and Merged Zamasu represent different stages of Zamasu's character as whole. You see the young, bashful and down-to-earth Kaioshin who ultimately calls a spade a spade and knows of just how dangerous mortals can be and openly questions the system that he is a part of and became jaded and disillusioned by what he saw and what he knew. Then Goku Black and Future Zamasu provide the next stage of Zamasu's development by embodying the now much more deep rooted hatred for mortals, with him relishing in their destruction. Merged Zamasu is the culmination of Zamasu's character arc. He eventually morally degraded so much that what he became what he set out to destroy for a sake of what he though would be a better universe. I think Zamasu had a good amount of development for the time the Future Trunks arc lasted.
The Joker is a special type of crazy, and his exact origin isn't really known. There's multiple, IIRC.

I wouldn't call the other incarnations of Zamasu "stages" of the character because he never grows into them, if that makes sense. He sort of just became Black, and the saiyan genes clearly had some influence on his actions. Future Zamasu is actually proof that Zamasu was always a douche. Think about it: this Zamasu experienced exactly the same things as present Zamasu, minus his interactions with Goku, and lived for over a decade longer, but he remained a servant to Gowasu. Zamasu was always seeking a way to break free and kill people, and Goku was that answer. The catalyst. This character underwent almost no development. He simply hated humans for the sake of hating them.

You could argue Zamasu loved the universe, the lesser creatures that inhabit it, and all the creations of the gods, minus humans, but this is never really explored at all outside the manga. All we get is he hates humans. There's no drive besides the fact that they destroy shit, so he fixes this issues by destroying more shit.
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