Android 17 stronger than Goku SS3?

[Lapislettuce]

I see the usual mess going on in here. We have people guessing 17 is anywhere from just above Z SSJ2 Goku all the way up to surpassing SSG.

It don't see how there can be such a wide range nor any agreement when when one party is arguing that a difference of 100,000% in strength levels.

People who donwplay him have no valid arguments.

[Lapislettuce]

Although the true nature of how SSJB works remains a mystery, I think we've seen a number of examples as of late showing a small initial power increase when Goku and Vegeta transform from SSJ2 to SSJB. I think the combination of the increase they've both achieved in their base form coupled with the way SSJB works allows for the gap to decrease between the two. SSJB seems to offer them a wider spectrum of power with a much higher cap. As such, SSJ3 may offer a level of power on par with low to mid level SSJB, but the considerable drawbacks makes the transformation obsolete.

You're missing the point ! you're using all these theories to downplay 17 who clearly made Goku go ssb but you're not using these theories with Gohan who didn't push Goku to any level above ssj2 he had to ask first, sure he's shown higher power later on when he forced himself but still you're being kinda biased. 17 and Gohan should be at the very least equal. not to mention we've seen Gohan's limits and we don't know what 17's full power extent is.

I'm basing the level Goku's using against 17 and Gohan based on Goku's typical approach to powering up and transforming. He never goes beyond the minimal level needed to contend with and defeat an opponent. He's notorious for moving through transformations, and even outright lying about his max level, simply to test the opponents ability. The fact that 17's powerful enough to force him beyond SSJ2 level, means he's going to transform to SSJB at the lowest levels to see how much more he needs to use to compete.

The fight with Gohan was different for a number of reasons. One, unlike 17, Gohan's pushing himself to his full extent, so he can show his father how powerful he's become. Two, the spar with Goku is almost like training with the next master to further help along your progression. Although Gohan respects Piccolo beyond almost anyone else, he doesn't have an overwhelming need to prove himself as a powerful fighter like he does with Goku. Three, you can clearly see Goku's pushing himself to the max level to meet Gohan's charge after he powered up even further.

Goku's simply assessing 17's power by sparing, but there's much more to the one on one spar against Gohan.

Lol so you think Goku put the same efforts fighting Gohan like he did with Zamasu ? please stop it it's ridiculous, Goku was holding back against Gohan too, he didn't want to vaporize his son, and apparently exchanging two punches with ssb for 2 seconds makes you ssb level, but pushing Goku to ssb while holding back and fighting on par with ssb makes you not ssb tier ? yeah makes sense, also that theory abour Goku using ssj2 by going ssb is DUMB as hell and have been debunked on many occasions and nothing as such is stated in canon.

[pacz360]

You're missing the point ! you're using all these theories to downplay 17 who clearly made Goku go ssb but you're not using these theories with Gohan who didn't push Goku to any level above ssj2 he had to ask first, sure he's shown higher power later on when he forced himself but still you're being kinda biased. 17 and Gohan should be at the very least equal. not to mention we've seen Gohan's limits and we don't know what 17's full power extent is.

I'm basing the level Goku's using against 17 and Gohan based on Goku's typical approach to powering up and transforming. He never goes beyond the minimal level needed to contend with and defeat an opponent. He's notorious for moving through transformations, and even outright lying about his max level, simply to test the opponents ability. The fact that 17's powerful enough to force him beyond SSJ2 level, means he's going to transform to SSJB at the lowest levels to see how much more he needs to use to compete.

The fight with Gohan was different for a number of reasons. One, unlike 17, Gohan's pushing himself to his full extent, so he can show his father how powerful he's become. Two, the spar with Goku is almost like training with the next master to further help along your progression. Although Gohan respects Piccolo beyond almost anyone else, he doesn't have an overwhelming need to prove himself as a powerful fighter like he does with Goku. Three, you can clearly see Goku's pushing himself to the max level to meet Gohan's charge after he powered up even further.

Goku's simply assessing 17's power by sparing, but there's much more to the one on one spar against Gohan.

Lol so you think Goku put the same efforts fighting Gohan like he did with Zamasu ? please stop it it's ridiculous, Goku was holding back against Gohan too, he didn't want to vaporize his son, and apparently exchanging two punches with ssb for 2 seconds makes you ssb level, but pushing Goku to ssb while holding back and fighting on par with ssb makes you not ssb tier ? yeah makes sense, also that theory abour Goku using ssj2 by going ssb is DUMB as hell and have been debunked on many occasions and nothing as such is stated in canon.

Now don't be downplaying gohan both him and 17 should be around the same level Of power until further notice bruh
Gohan was stated to rival blue by the narrator and 17 traded blows with ssjb while holding back as well

[gofishus]

So a random forum poster on Kanzenshuu (who is obviously biased to his favorite character Android 17) is more accurate? Where else would you go to state facts about SSJB?

Kanzenshuu is run by Dragon Ball fans who pride themselves on only providing the most accurate information. This information is readily acceptable on this site and its staff and long time members can provide you with down to the nearest decimal point. These same people will also bring the hammer down an anything that is less then such, providing a very, very reliable and harsh system of fact checking. So regardless of his liking of #17 if he was talking crap, you have people here who know dragon ball better then anyone else in the world, and they would correct him. This site is more accurate then the wiki will ever be and the users have access to that.

The dragon ball wiki on the other hand for years only used the american dub as a source, making only brief mention any Japaneses sources, though admittedly they have made some small improvement in resent years but that was by necessity rather then choice. A very big red flag in regards to quality. I can state as fact that the entire paragraph of that articular you make reference to has zero official facts behind it. Nowhere is it stated at any time that SSB's "ki control" allows the user to power down to fight weaker opponents. Not the anime, not the manga and their are no official statements or guidebooks. None. It is pure fan speculation that should not be stated as fact by any credible source, it should be at best down in the notes section at the bottom of the page and clearly labeled as such.

If you want evidence as to just how bad the wiki is...

viewtopic.php?t=30735

viewtopic.php?t=22272

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=13791

Plus a quote from one of this sites own members/staff.

I'm sorry, but I can't hold back much more of the arrogance and snark. I did my best with the first response, taking a couple days to piece together my thoughts and re-write things... but I find it all to be wholly ridiculous the more I read.

The majority of responses in that DB Wikia forum thread seem to be from people that are incapable of writing proper sentences, never mind contribute accurate information to a community-based encyclopedia and accept/consider/integrate constructive criticism/feedback. These are not people that, in an ideal world, should be contributing. I used the phrase in my prior response, but it rings true more than ever before -- every response is totally and fully self-serving, having little to do with the value of the resource as a whole, and more to do with pushing their own personal agenda* of "FUNimation > everything else"... at the expense of information accuracy.

(* Yes, you could rightly argue that we totally have own own "agenda" here, in that pushing the original Japanese version as the basis makes the most sense. However, we have a lot more going for us in that regard in terms of sheer logic -- primary source versus adaptation, a hugely lesser degree of contradictions and needless explanations of those contradictions, etc.)

It is a showcase of everything that is wrong with the current state of the DB Wikia... an entity which I knew almost nothing about prior to this, and could read like the back of my hand with little more than a couple days' research.

While I fully believe that a huge portion of what is "wrong" with the DB Wikia is the fact that it uses FUNimation's (old) English dub as its basis, is there any discussion among its members and administrators anywhere about the fact that so much information, if not simply wrong on a base level, is just made up bullshit...? Forget naming an article "TIEN" vs "TENSHINHAN" -- that's the least its problems -- does anyone there even care that so much of what is written is baseless conjecture and absurdity? And on top of that, written like a fourth-grader just found the Internet for the first time?

I'm being very mean. I'll admit it. I may even be unfair. I'm probably being the most realistic, though -- the way DB Wikia is set up right now, it's a complete failure as an accurate resource. It's not worth trying to "fix" the raw logistical problems with it, never mind subjective stuff. It's just not. The reason that Daizenshuu EX and Kanzentai were created in the first place was because we each saw flaws and holes with what was being provided online. We gathered the actual experts, created a community around evidence- and research-based ideals, and are clearly seen as the authority figures in the English-language fandom.

Call us delusional, arrogant, mean, poopie-heads, whatever you want... we're at least striving for something more than "adequate" with what we're offering, and you can expect some pretty slick shit in the future. I wanted to do it anyway for a few years now, but the last couple days of reading this nonsense has me bashing my head against the wall more than I'd like to admit.

It's not like I don't wish the darn thing success and grand improvements... but it seems like the people who happen to have fallen in place as administrators/moderators want to do everything in their power to work against that.

(And yes, B... shit's serious, yo.)

The wiki can be inaccurate, but so what? name me one site that is 100% accurate all the time. Nothing is. However the Wiki is the fruits of many people's labors. It is more than just one opinion. I believe Kanzenshuu fans are knowledgeable too, but I need more than one person's opinions on the topic to be convinced. If several people joined him and said 'yes Android 17 is clearly superior to Gohan and is as powerful as full power SSJB Goku' then I will believe it. But as of right now, its just one poster's opinion.

[pacz360]

The usual downplay going on here. Android 17 is presumably leagues, no worlds above any form of Buu at this point. It has long been indicated that SSJ Goku took on and kept the powers of his ritually powered up red-haired self. This means, SSJ Goku alone should be able to pound any form of SSJ Vegetto from the Buu saga with the greatest of ease. No one ever said SSJ Goku lost these powers. The only thing going against this are fan theories, speculations and more fan theories. If beating down SSJ Goku isn't enough of a feat for Android 17 to be above Buu, there's also him fighting evenly with SSB Goku with minimal struggle while only using a portion of his power.

SSB Goku > / = Android 17 >>> SSJ Goku = ritually powered up Goku (vs Beerus) >>>>>>>>>> SSJ Vegetto >>> Buuhan >> Super Buu >>> Mr. Buu.

Yeah, Buu's a joke at this point.

Pretty much this 17 would shit on any version buu without trying at this point

[HybridSaiyan]

The usual downplay going on here. Android 17 is presumably leagues, no worlds above any form of Buu at this point. It has long been indicated that SSJ Goku took on and kept the powers of his ritually powered up red-haired self. This means, SSJ Goku alone should be able to pound any form of SSJ Vegetto from the Buu saga with the greatest of ease. No one ever said SSJ Goku lost these powers. The only thing going against this are fan theories, speculations and more fan theories. If beating down SSJ Goku isn't enough of a feat for Android 17 to be above Buu, there's also him fighting evenly with SSB Goku with minimal struggle while only using a portion of his power.

SSB Goku > / = Android 17 >>> SSJ Goku = ritually powered up Goku (vs Beerus) >>>>>>>>>> SSJ Vegetto >>> Buuhan >> Super Buu >>> Mr. Buu.

Yeah, Buu's a joke at this point.

Pretty much this 17 would shit on any version buu without trying at this point

And all he did was push ups, sits up and drunk plenty of juice.

[gofishus]

The usual downplay going on here. Android 17 is presumably leagues, no worlds above any form of Buu at this point. It has long been indicated that SSJ Goku took on and kept the powers of his ritually powered up red-haired self. This means, SSJ Goku alone should be able to pound any form of SSJ Vegetto from the Buu saga with the greatest of ease. No one ever said SSJ Goku lost these powers. The only thing going against this are fan theories, speculations and more fan theories. If beating down SSJ Goku isn't enough of a feat for Android 17 to be above Buu, there's also him fighting evenly with SSB Goku with minimal struggle while only using a portion of his power.

SSB Goku > / = Android 17 >>> SSJ Goku = ritually powered up Goku (vs Beerus) >>>>>>>>>> SSJ Vegetto >>> Buuhan >> Super Buu >>> Mr. Buu.

Yeah, Buu's a joke at this point.

Pretty much this 17 would shit on any version buu without trying at this point

And all he did was push ups, sits up and drunk plenty of juice.

Yeah, where was this 17 when Kid Buu was out destroying the Earth eh? He had 7 years training at that point. If he's 70% as powerful as he is now, he would still wipe the floor with Buu..

[Lapislettuce]

I'm basing the level Goku's using against 17 and Gohan based on Goku's typical approach to powering up and transforming. He never goes beyond the minimal level needed to contend with and defeat an opponent. He's notorious for moving through transformations, and even outright lying about his max level, simply to test the opponents ability. The fact that 17's powerful enough to force him beyond SSJ2 level, means he's going to transform to SSJB at the lowest levels to see how much more he needs to use to compete.

The fight with Gohan was different for a number of reasons. One, unlike 17, Gohan's pushing himself to his full extent, so he can show his father how powerful he's become. Two, the spar with Goku is almost like training with the next master to further help along your progression. Although Gohan respects Piccolo beyond almost anyone else, he doesn't have an overwhelming need to prove himself as a powerful fighter like he does with Goku. Three, you can clearly see Goku's pushing himself to the max level to meet Gohan's charge after he powered up even further.

Goku's simply assessing 17's power by sparing, but there's much more to the one on one spar against Gohan.

Lol so you think Goku put the same efforts fighting Gohan like he did with Zamasu ? please stop it it's ridiculous, Goku was holding back against Gohan too, he didn't want to vaporize his son, and apparently exchanging two punches with ssb for 2 seconds makes you ssb level, but pushing Goku to ssb while holding back and fighting on par with ssb makes you not ssb tier ? yeah makes sense, also that theory abour Goku using ssj2 by going ssb is DUMB as hell and have been debunked on many occasions and nothing as such is stated in canon.

Now don't be downplaying gohan both him and 17 should be around the same level Of power until further notice bruh
Gohan was stated to rival blue by the narrator and 17 traded blows with ssjb while holding back as well

Not downplaying anybody but some people here acknowlege what Gohan did yet they downplay what 17 did.

[larzooma]

Lol so you think Goku put the same efforts fighting Gohan like he did with Zamasu ? please stop it it's ridiculous, Goku was holding back against Gohan too, he didn't want to vaporize his son, and apparently exchanging two punches with ssb for 2 seconds makes you ssb level, but pushing Goku to ssb while holding back and fighting on par with ssb makes you not ssb tier ? yeah makes sense, also that theory abour Goku using ssj2 by going ssb is DUMB as hell and have been debunked on many occasions and nothing as such is stated in canon.

Now don't be downplaying gohan both him and 17 should be around the same level Of power until further notice bruh
Gohan was stated to rival blue by the narrator and 17 traded blows with ssjb while holding back as well

Not downplaying anybody but some people here acknowlege what Gohan did yet they downplay what 17 did.

I honestly think 17 posses a power level within range of Gohan, but as of right now, he hasn't shown anything concrete as proof. I'm simply stating Gohan's fight offered a clearer example of his power compared to Goku the measuring stick.

[Basako]

It's crazy, but it looks he is. His recruitment episode and Toshio placing him equal to Gohan. Waiting to definitive proves, I'll take Toshio's word, even if it's an opinion.

[VegettoEX]

I don't know if there's a super-tactful way to explain this, but I'll do my best.

Let's be careful about equating posts/statements from a random (even if well-recognized, well-liked, etc.) forum member with, say, a guide on the main Kanzenshuu website. There's a degree of honest-to-goodness fact-checking and multiple sets of eyes that hit content for the website that doesn't necessarily go into general conversation on a forum. The forum ≠ the website.

Let's also be careful about equating the work we do with strength debates. Quite frankly, that kind of stuff generally isn't fact-based, and instead relies on extrapolation and interpretation. We do not really engage in that on the website-proper, don't really think it has a place there in conjunction with the types of citations and curation we do, and even among the four of us administrators our interest there is little-to-none to begin with.

In this particular case/explanation, that's not to diminish strength debates (though I do have strong feelings about them), but I want to make clear that any given user comments and viewpoints do not necessarily speak for or represent Kanzenshuu as an entity as run by Mike/Heath/Julian/Jake.

[dragon boss z]

I highly doubt it

[Lord Frieza]

I don't know if there's a super-tactful way to explain this, but I'll do my best.

Let's be careful about equating posts/statements from a random (even if well-recognized, well-liked, etc.) forum member with, say, a guide on the main Kanzenshuu website. There's a degree of honest-to-goodness fact-checking and multiple sets of eyes that hit content for the website that doesn't necessarily go into general conversation on a forum. The forum ≠ the website.

Let's also be careful about equating the work we do with strength debates. Quite frankly, that kind of stuff generally isn't fact-based, and instead relies on extrapolation and interpretation. We do not really engage in that on the website-proper, don't really think it has a place there in conjunction with the types of citations and curation we do, and even among the four of us administrators our interest there is little-to-none to begin with.

In this particular case/explanation, that's not to diminish strength debates (though I do have strong feelings about them), but I want to make clear that any given user comments and viewpoints do not necessarily speak for or represent Kanzenshuu as an entity as run by Mike/Heath/Julian/Jake.

Fair enough but my point was never about strength debates. That is very subjective and I'm not taking anyone side.

My point was a matter of source reliability. While free to interpret things as we all will on a subjective level there is a fine line between that and fact. Nowhere in any official source is it calmed that SSB's "ki control" allows the user to drop their power level to that of the lower forms. Now if someone wants to interpret is that way go right ahead but but with no official source it pretty much amounts to headcannon. Now the real issue I'm trying to bring up is that rather then just stating that and sticking to their guns, which is their prerogative and you cannot force someone to change their mind, they backed up your statements with information from a website that that has a history not only of being inaccurate in the general sense, which all wikis suffer from to a degree based on the quality of their staff, but also has been proven to post fan theories as facts with no solid evidence. What I'm trying to do, and apparently failing to do, is prevent someone from making the same mistake many unfortunate fans have done. Relying on the wiki and the wiki alone to proved support or as a fact checked. Doing so has little more credibility then relying on the many YouTube channels that spout of all their nonsense.

I'm using the links and your post, not to challenge his opinion on but to show him that his source he's trying to use to support his clame only hurts it. But maybe I didn't make that clear enough from the onset. Anyway as always we are all free believe what we like, even if its wrong or misinformed.

[GodKaio-Ken]

So a random forum poster on Kanzenshuu (who is obviously biased to his favorite character Android 17) is more accurate? Where else would you go to state facts about SSJB?

Kanzenshuu is run by Dragon Ball fans who pride themselves on only providing the most accurate information. This information is readily acceptable on this site and its staff and long time members can provide you with down to the nearest decimal point. These same people will also bring the hammer down an anything that is less then such, providing a very, very reliable and harsh system of fact checking. So regardless of his liking of #17 if he was talking crap, you have people here who know dragon ball better then anyone else in the world, and they would correct him. This site is more accurate then the wiki will ever be and the users have access to that.

The dragon ball wiki on the other hand for years only used the american dub as a source, making only brief mention any Japaneses sources, though admittedly they have made some small improvement in resent years but that was by necessity rather then choice. A very big red flag in regards to quality. I can state as fact that the entire paragraph of that articular you make reference to has zero official facts behind it. Nowhere is it stated at any time that SSB's "ki control" allows the user to power down to fight weaker opponents. Not the anime, not the manga and their are no official statements or guidebooks. None. It is pure fan speculation that should not be stated as fact by any credible source, it should be at best down in the notes section at the bottom of the page and clearly labeled as such.

If you want evidence as to just how bad the wiki is...

viewtopic.php?t=30735

viewtopic.php?t=22272

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=13791

Plus a quote from one of this sites own members/staff.

I'm sorry, but I can't hold back much more of the arrogance and snark. I did my best with the first response, taking a couple days to piece together my thoughts and re-write things... but I find it all to be wholly ridiculous the more I read.

The majority of responses in that DB Wikia forum thread seem to be from people that are incapable of writing proper sentences, never mind contribute accurate information to a community-based encyclopedia and accept/consider/integrate constructive criticism/feedback. These are not people that, in an ideal world, should be contributing. I used the phrase in my prior response, but it rings true more than ever before -- every response is totally and fully self-serving, having little to do with the value of the resource as a whole, and more to do with pushing their own personal agenda* of "FUNimation > everything else"... at the expense of information accuracy.

(* Yes, you could rightly argue that we totally have own own "agenda" here, in that pushing the original Japanese version as the basis makes the most sense. However, we have a lot more going for us in that regard in terms of sheer logic -- primary source versus adaptation, a hugely lesser degree of contradictions and needless explanations of those contradictions, etc.)

It is a showcase of everything that is wrong with the current state of the DB Wikia... an entity which I knew almost nothing about prior to this, and could read like the back of my hand with little more than a couple days' research.

While I fully believe that a huge portion of what is "wrong" with the DB Wikia is the fact that it uses FUNimation's (old) English dub as its basis, is there any discussion among its members and administrators anywhere about the fact that so much information, if not simply wrong on a base level, is just made up bullshit...? Forget naming an article "TIEN" vs "TENSHINHAN" -- that's the least its problems -- does anyone there even care that so much of what is written is baseless conjecture and absurdity? And on top of that, written like a fourth-grader just found the Internet for the first time?

I'm being very mean. I'll admit it. I may even be unfair. I'm probably being the most realistic, though -- the way DB Wikia is set up right now, it's a complete failure as an accurate resource. It's not worth trying to "fix" the raw logistical problems with it, never mind subjective stuff. It's just not. The reason that Daizenshuu EX and Kanzentai were created in the first place was because we each saw flaws and holes with what was being provided online. We gathered the actual experts, created a community around evidence- and research-based ideals, and are clearly seen as the authority figures in the English-language fandom.

Call us delusional, arrogant, mean, poopie-heads, whatever you want... we're at least striving for something more than "adequate" with what we're offering, and you can expect some pretty slick shit in the future. I wanted to do it anyway for a few years now, but the last couple days of reading this nonsense has me bashing my head against the wall more than I'd like to admit.

It's not like I don't wish the darn thing success and grand improvements... but it seems like the people who happen to have fallen in place as administrators/moderators want to do everything in their power to work against that.

(And yes, B... shit's serious, yo.)

The wiki can be inaccurate, but so what? name me one site that is 100% accurate all the time. Nothing is. However the Wiki is the fruits of many people's labors. It is more than just one opinion. I believe Kanzenshuu fans are knowledgeable too, but I need more than one person's opinions on the topic to be convinced. If several people joined him and said 'yes Android 17 is clearly superior to Gohan and is as powerful as full power SSJB Goku' then I will believe it. But as of right now, its just one poster's opinion.

There are more than a few errors in that wiki though. You can browse almost any article and find things that are either totally incorrect or that involve a lot of head canon.

Not to say it doesnt have good info too. It does...but I would definitely use it to verify a source rather than learn new information.

Just my two cents.

[DragonBallFoodie]

As far as I can tell, he was intended to be stronger. He and 18 were built to have infinite energy, and so were supposed to outlast a Super Saiyan in their debut.

I myself think their definite limit is against gods or god-powered Saiyans.

[Vegeta123]

that robot is not stronger than vegeta

[supersaiyan1993]

i think it will be best to wait for the manga to say how strong 17 is. power levels are just all over the place in the anime. the manga on the other hand is far more consistent and forms like super saiyan blue are better portrayed. I'm guessing the manga would place 17 around kid gohan ssj2 level.

[Hugo Boss]

Any level between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue is acceptable. I guess he could be stronger than SS3, but we should wait until it's confirmed.