Did Z, Super and GT need to exist?

[BlueBasilisk]

No idea what happened with Toriyama since Namek and Freeza, but the writing quality hit a severe nose dive, at least the Buu arc had the full element to it and wasn't a bore like the Cell arc ended up. I suspect since Freeza he probably was treating the Manga more like work.

The Frieza Saga is the last time the heroes didn't start out with the advantage over the villains until Beerus showed up. Frieza was stronger than everyone before they were even born and nothing the heroes did could have prevented that. Meanwhile they had the chance to stop the Androids, Cell, and Buu from attaining their full power but didn't because the plot wouldn't advance if they did. The entire Buu saga could have been avoided if anyone other than Gohan had fought Dabura and if Goku hadn't stopped Vegeta from killing him because it was still Gohan's turn. Then he wasted time with Majin Vegeta. Then he didn't kill Fat Buu, and so on.

GT was rife with this too. Goku was stronger than every villain up to Super Baby 2 but didn't instantly defeat them because everyone in that show was allergic to Super Saiyan and because plot. There's an entire episode where Goku, Trunks and Pan just stand there and watch Dr. Myuu try to revive Baby, something they don't want to happen, and don't lift a finger to stop him. It happens again in the Shadow Dragons arc. Nobody does a thing to stop Syn Shenron from sucking up the Dragon Balls.

[PsionicWarrior]

Not to mention poorly-done stories like Majin Vegeta and Mystic Gohan.

These are parts of the best moments of this arc lol

[ABED]

I've always been shocked people don't like the Buu arc, it's an extremely rich arc with great character development and storyline, awesome fights and tons of epicness IMO

I never understood all the hate for the Buu arc either. Something tells me it stems from Gotenks but I don't know. Still my favorite arc though.

I've been rewatching the Buu saga as I never really had many memories of it as a kid... It's terrible, and doesn't seem to know what it wants to do with itself. It doesn't know if it wants to be serious (Final Atonement/Majin Vegeta, planetary/universe genocide, Super Buu) or humorous (Gotenks, Majin Buu, ) so we get this half-baked narrative that I just can't take seriously, or at the very least suspend my disbelief. Not to mention poorly-done stories like Majin Vegeta and Mystic Gohan.

I think the biggest problem is the scaling of everything. Each episode wants to top itself with "ZOMG BUU IS SO POWERFUL" or "ZOMG GOHAN/GOTENKS IS SO POWERFUL". And with Buu himself, I just don't "get" him, and how he's able to keep getting back up after being blown to smithereens by Vegeta and later Gotenks. How am I supposed to take the conflict seriosuly when you start it off with a huge explosion (Final Atonement) then from then on have the antagonist essentially walk it off?

I agree with some of this, such as the story not knowing what it wanted to be, but there are some things about your post i find baffling, such as you not knowing you don't get Buu. He's a magical entity. He can survive a powerful blast, the same as Freeza survived the Genki Dama.

Majin Vegeta was a strong story, but mystic Gohan wasn't. It was little more than a power boost that took forever but didn't pay off.

[Sexyphobe]

Not to mention poorly-done stories like Majin Vegeta and Mystic Gohan.

These are parts of the best moments of this arc lol

I found Majin Vegeta to be a whiny brat, with no real consequences for his actions. "I DON'T CARE ABOUT MY FAMILY" "Goku: YES YOU DO!" "Vegeta: Oh, okay". It underdelivered in both plot, as well as the rematch.

[ABED]

Not to mention poorly-done stories like Majin Vegeta and Mystic Gohan.

These are parts of the best moments of this arc lol

I found Majin Vegeta to be a whiny brat, with no real consequences for his actions. "I DON'T CARE ABOUT MY FAMILY" "Goku: YES YOU DO!" "Vegeta: Oh, okay". It underdelivered in both plot, as well as the rematch.

It was a logical place to go for his character. He changed quite a bit that it made sense for him to try to be his old self but realize it's not who he is anymore. What would rather Vegeta be?

How did the rematch under deliver?

[8000 Saiyan]

I've always been shocked people don't like the Buu arc, it's an extremely rich arc with great character development and storyline, awesome fights and tons of epicness IMO

I never understood all the hate for the Buu arc either. Something tells me it stems from Gotenks but I don't know. Still my favorite arc though.

I've been rewatching the Buu saga as I never really had many memories of it as a kid... It's terrible, and doesn't seem to know what it wants to do with itself. It doesn't know if it wants to be serious (Final Atonement/Majin Vegeta, planetary/universe genocide, Super Buu) or humorous (Gotenks, Majin Buu, ) so we get this half-baked narrative that I just can't take seriously, or at the very least suspend my disbelief. Not to mention poorly-done stories like Majin Vegeta and Mystic Gohan.

I think the biggest problem is the scaling of everything. Each episode wants to top itself with "ZOMG BUU IS SO POWERFUL" or "ZOMG GOHAN/GOTENKS IS SO POWERFUL". And with Buu himself, I just don't "get" him, and how he's able to keep getting back up after being blown to smithereens by Vegeta and later Gotenks. How am I supposed to take the conflict seriosuly when you start it off with a huge explosion (Final Atonement) then from then on have the antagonist essentially walk it off?

Honestly I wish the entire arc was just the tournament, a slice of life about a gang of friends getting together to do what they love.

Disagree with Majin Vegeta, but agree with Mystic Gohan. Gohan didn't do anything besides beating Buu and then get himself beaten by him.

[KBABZ]

Watching the Android and Cell arc again through the Kai dub, I personally find it to be much more interesting than the Namek arc for the most part. The setting changes help spice things up a lot, as do having a much larger cast, and Future Trunks, the Androids and then Cell showing up keeps you on your toes. Things only really slow down once Cell becomes Perfect, because then his motivations go away and he just wants to "show how perfect he is" which is completely unrelateable; it almost feels like he could be talked out of it, because he doesn't seem to show any particular evility about him by that point, aside from destroying that army.

On the dumb decisions, they are certainly dumb, although at the very least there is some slight justification thrown in. Vegeta is a Saiyan who has a thirst for battle that clouds his judgement and drives him to face tougher opponents, and this is something Goku exhibited at the conclusions to the fights with Piccolo, Vegeta and Frieza, so it very much seems to be a Pure Saiyan thing that bites them in the ass. Krillin has that one moment with 18 on the mountain road to justify his dunder-headed decision. Honestly it's more frustrating to hear 16 go "Run 17/18!!" only for 17/18 to either A) stand there gawking at the fight with Cell occurring in front of them or B) insist that they won't leave 16, for an entire episode! I mean they have no detectable power, right? How hard would it have been for them to escape and then go into hiding somewhere until Cell is defeated? Bah!

[Asura]

So if no one died in the Saiyan arc and Vegeta gets away, are you saying that's perfect closure for the series? It can just end there since even though Vegeta will be back, Goku will always be there to stop him?

No, since Goku didn't soundly defeat him twice and there was a warning of an even bigger threat. Two completely different scenarios.

Piccolo Jr. isn't quite the same person as King Piccolo though, so I wouldn't say it's fair to say he's soundly defeated him twice. Plus "soundly"? Goku BARELY won the fight with Piccolo just like he BARELY won the fight with Vegeta. Also what was the warning of an even bigger threat after Vegeta? That he'd be back to kill them all? Because that was Piccolo's message too.

You must be someone who is satisfied quite easily then. It's not like at the end of a movie where the guy finally gets the girl because the Goku & Chi-Chi situation was literally nothing like that at all. We don't need to see their happy love together, we just need to see the obvious implications of what's going to happen which is that they'll have children, and given Goku is incredibly young there's no way his story just ends there. Starting a family is just the beginning for more to come.

We don't see their happy love because 1) Toriyama isn't great at writing romance nor does he have that much interest and 2) Goku isn't that type of character. We don't need to see anything. We see them flying off together and happy. That's all we need. Goku's story has closure. He's achieved his goal. Yes, there was clearly more you can do after that, but the story doesn't need that for it to be complete. From the Pilaf to the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, there's a beginning, middle, and end. It's a complete arc for Goku.

You missed my point. I'm not talking about seeing their love and romance, I'm talking about the obvious implication that Goku will have children. His story arc doesn't just end here, just like your life doesn't end when you have children, lol. There are many points in the series you can say with regards to there being a beginning, middle, and end. It doesn't mean you always have to end it there, and it doesn't mean it's entirely complete and can't be further expanded upon.

Regardless of Goku's motivations almost the entire show has been about protecting Earth

That's not true. He's not out to save the world and in fact often puts it in danger for the sake of a fight (e.g. letting Piccolo and Vegeta go and letting Dr. Gero create the cyborgs). This isn't a superhero show.

Hence why I said, which you quoted, "Regardless of Goku's motivations" - It doesn't matter what Goku wants or what he actually intended to do, the fact of the matter is that the entire show has been about protecting Earth from those who wish to harm it. Just because Goku is selfish and gets himself into fights as the prime motivator doesn't mean he's not also protecting the Earth. Again, the end of the Cell saga and literally the entire Buu saga (and EoZ with Uub!) is all about Goku trying to find a suitable protector for Earth once he's gone.

it should matter what it means to us, the audience

What the story means for the audience is for them to determine. It does matter what it all means for Goku. It's his story. Uub isn't important in and of himself. He's important in what he means for Goku's arc. He's there to shed light on where Goku's going.

You can't just say it doesn't matter what the audience thinks, or that what it means is just "for them to determine". That just sounds like more philosophical nonsense. You seem to imply that for some reason you can't have the show end in a way that shows the end to Goku's story as well as an end to the show as a whole. This feels like an end to Goku's story, but not an ending to a show. What are we supposed to think when Goku leaves his family and friends after 200 episodes of being with them to take off with some random kid we just met less than 10 minutes ago? How is that at all a satisfactory ending? You can't just sweep that under the rug with "Well it's what it means to Goku!" - You can display this in many more ways than the terrible writing decision of writing in a random character in on the last chapter of the book who the MC just takes up and leaves with, leaving family and friends behind.

Do you really think that writing in a character specifically for the purpose of completing Goku's character in the last episode of the series is a good writing decision? Because it's not and there's good reason as to why the ending to DBZ is HEAVILY criticized.

[ekrolo2]

An issue I have is that the series doesn't do a good enough time showing the escalation. It's hard/impossible to really feel the escalation. The only way we know Cell and Buu are more powerful is because characters say so.

The series has a pretty consistent problem of going too big too early on. Roshi blows up the moon in the second arcs conclusion making stuff like Piccolo blowing up a city look paltry by comparison. It happens again when Freeza destroying Namek is a big deal until you remember Vegeta could do it much faster when he was an ant next to his former boss. Super recently does the same where Goku & Beerus nearly destroy their universe just by punching but later antagonists clashing against a much stronger Goku don't do anything remotely close to this in scale, even a couple of bad guys who have every reason to want universal scale destruction to happen.

[ABED]

Piccolo Jr. isn't quite the same person as King Piccolo though, so I wouldn't say it's fair to say he's soundly defeated him twice. Plus "soundly"? Goku BARELY won the fight with Piccolo just like he BARELY won the fight with Vegeta. Also what was the warning of an even bigger threat after Vegeta? That he'd be back to kill them all? Because that was Piccolo's message too.

Not quite, but at that point, he is more or less a reincarnation of Piccolo Daimao. He has all his memories and he is out to murder Goku. Goku barely won that fight, but there was absolutely zero question about who won either of those two fights. Goku didn't win the fight against Vegeta. He lost soundly. Vegeta had him beat even before he transformed. It was a team effort and Goku was completely broken and would've died had his friends not intervened. The warning of a bigger threat was Kaio's warning that Vegeta wasn't the root of evil. It's an allusion to Freeza. And Vegeta, unlike Piccolo, was in a position to make good on his promise. Goku was a Piccolo's superior, but not Vegeta's.

I'm talking about the obvious implication that Goku will have children

I get that, but we don't need to see it. It's not a dangling thread that needed to be explored. Goku and everyone's stories were wrapped up at the end of DB. Yes, the story could be and was expanded upon, but as of the end of DB, it was a complete story. The same can't be said of the end of the Vegeta arc.

His story arc doesn't just end here, just like your life doesn't end when you have children, lol.

Laugh at your weird joke all you want, but that doesn't mean you have a point. Goku's story arc did end. That didn't mean his life ended, just that it was completed. You can go further, but you don't have to. The ending gives the story shape and meaning. In this case, Goku had achieved his dream of becoming the champion and the best in the world. No matter where he goes, we know he and his friends are going to be okay. Everything CAN be further expanded upon, but that doesn't mean it HAS to be for the story to feel complete.

is all about Goku trying to find a suitable protector for Earth once he's gone.

No, it is not. You don't understand this series as well as you think. Goku's motivation is EVERYTHING. That's the root of everything. He helps out but he also causes many of the problems because he wants a good fight. Uub is created as a result of Goku asking for Buu to come back as a good guy because he wants to fight someone as strong as Buu without the threat of everything being destroyed. Uub taking over as protector is a bonus, but not Goku's primary goal. Goku is trying to be the best martial artist he can be, not out to save the world. Yes, he will save it because he's not malicious and he has to live in it, but he isn't above letting an enemy live for the sake of a good fight in spite of the danger it poses to others. Letting the cyborgs be created even though he has three years warning should be argument enough that the show isn't about saving the world.

You seem to imply that for some reason you can't have the show end in a way that shows the end to Goku's story as well as an end to the show as a whole.

It does show the end of the story as a whole. Goku's journey has come to an end, everything is going to be okay. We know enough about Uub and what the implications of his existence are. That's all the story requires.

What are we supposed to think when Goku leaves his family and friends after 200 episodes of being with them to take off with some random kid we just met less than 10 minutes ago?

The same thing we always knew - Goku is a warrior at heart and not the best family man. You're talking about a guy who agreed to marry Chichi because he thought she meant food. He cares about his family but it doesn't mean the same thing to him as it does to a normal person. They aren't his greatest priority, they never have been. I dont' think he's the worst family man ever, but he's never been the best. It is supposed to be a satisfactory ending because Goku is excited about the prospect of having someone strong to fight. I may not like it, but it's in character. The prospect of a fight is the most important thing to Goku and it always has been the case. It's his reason for being.

And it doesn't matter what "the audience" thinks because we aren't all one person with one opinion. Some like it, other's don't. First and foremost, the ending has to make sense story and character wise and bring closure to the story. I think Kunzait wrote a post on this very issue.

Vegeta could do it much faster

Arlia is filler.

[ekrolo2]

Vegeta could do it much faster

Arlia is filler.

No, Vegeta could blow up Earth in the Saiyan arc, it's how he forces Goku to fight him in a beam struggle instead of risking the possibility of wasting ki on a big attack only for Goku to avoid it.

Freeza, the guy who's power is actually in the dozens of millions, can't just fire a blast to destroy Namek and instantly win the fight when Vegeta, just prior to his death, almost did exactly so.

[ABED]

Vegeta could do it much faster

Arlia is filler.

No, Vegeta could blow up Earth in the Saiyan arc, it's how he forces Goku to fight him in a beam struggle instead of risking the possibility of wasting ki on a big attack only for Goku to avoid it.

He can, but we don't know how much power of his it would take and we never actually see it. Freeza however destroys a planet in his weakest form with a blast of his finger like it was child's play.

[ekrolo2]

Arlia is filler.

No, Vegeta could blow up Earth in the Saiyan arc, it's how he forces Goku to fight him in a beam struggle instead of risking the possibility of wasting ki on a big attack only for Goku to avoid it.

He can, but we don't know how much power of his it would take and we never actually see it. Freeza however destroys a planet in his weakest form with a blast of his finger like it was child's play.

We do know, 24 thousand which is the power Goku puts out when he matches Vegeta's Galick Gun. Hell, Vegeta at a PL of 2-3 million fired off an attack that made Piccolo shit himself because he thought it would make Namek explode. But Freeza, the guy who's in the dozens of millions can't just do the same thing with a simple blast? The fact he basically does that to Planet Vegeta in his weakest form makes it all the stupider.

[ABED]

No, I mean we don't know how much power it would take out of Vegeta at that point. Even assuming he could survive the planet exploding and the vacuum of space, would Vegeta be drained? The percentage of Vegeta's power it would take to destroy a planet is far greater than the amount Freeza would have to expend.

The fact he basically does that to Planet Vegeta in his weakest form makes it all the stupider.

Yeah, then when you think about Buu, a flick of his wrist should be able to destroy a planet. The most logical explanation is they can control the extent of the blasts even if the power of it is bigger.

[Sexyphobe]

These are parts of the best moments of this arc lol

I found Majin Vegeta to be a whiny brat, with no real consequences for his actions. "I DON'T CARE ABOUT MY FAMILY" "Goku: YES YOU DO!" "Vegeta: Oh, okay". It underdelivered in both plot, as well as the rematch.

It was a logical place to go for his character. He changed quite a bit that it made sense for him to try to be his old self but realize it's not who he is anymore. What would rather Vegeta be?

How did the rematch under deliver?

I'd rather he act like an actual adult, instead of a whiny 5 year old putting the universe at stake just to fight. You could argue it's proper characterization for Vegeta, but I don't care, it's stupid and so is his face.

As for the actual fight, compare it to the original Vege vs Goku. That one had a proper beginning, middle, end. There was proper fight choreography, conflict, and the sense of both characters having to use every technique they can think of just to put the other down for good. Majin Vegeta's fight feels more like a "best of" montage than an actual fight. There were some cool moments, but that's just it, moments. The fight itself wasn't anything special.

I never understood all the hate for the Buu arc either. Something tells me it stems from Gotenks but I don't know. Still my favorite arc though.

I've been rewatching the Buu saga as I never really had many memories of it as a kid... It's terrible, and doesn't seem to know what it wants to do with itself. It doesn't know if it wants to be serious (Final Atonement/Majin Vegeta, planetary/universe genocide, Super Buu) or humorous (Gotenks, Majin Buu, ) so we get this half-baked narrative that I just can't take seriously, or at the very least suspend my disbelief. Not to mention poorly-done stories like Majin Vegeta and Mystic Gohan.

I think the biggest problem is the scaling of everything. Each episode wants to top itself with "ZOMG BUU IS SO POWERFUL" or "ZOMG GOHAN/GOTENKS IS SO POWERFUL". And with Buu himself, I just don't "get" him, and how he's able to keep getting back up after being blown to smithereens by Vegeta and later Gotenks. How am I supposed to take the conflict seriosuly when you start it off with a huge explosion (Final Atonement) then from then on have the antagonist essentially walk it off?

I agree with some of this, such as the story not knowing what it wanted to be, but there are some things about your post i find baffling, such as you not knowing you don't get Buu. He's a magical entity. He can survive a powerful blast, the same as Freeza survived the Genki Dama.

But with Frieza they didn't go straight to the Genkai Dama, there were a dozen episodes of conflict and development. If they started straight with it, everything else would feel insignificant with no real buildup. That's my problem with the Final Atonement not even phazing Buu, it's just not the type of thing I can suspend my disbelief for. It's dumb.

Now that I think about it, do you think Goku could have charged up the Genkai Dama while he was in the rejuvenation tank?

[DragonBallKing]

On one hand It adds a lot of color to the Dragon Multiverse, but I don't think the story was as strong after the 23rd Budokai and especially after Freeza. Super Saiyan bargain sales and whatnot.

[sintzu]

I think Toriyama should've been more protective with the IP. He should've had his deal include full creative control and approval before anyone could move on with a project.

Of course he couldn't be in charge of everything but a more hands on would've prevented a lot of the issues the franchise has.

I don't think the story was as strong after the 23rd Budokai and especially after Freeza. Super Saiyan bargain sales and whatnot.

Goten and Trunks were the only 2 who got it easy, everyone else went through hell to get it and even with Goten and Trunks I didn't feel like it lost its impact. Ssj1 was the only form until Ssj3 was introduced. Same thing with GT, they didn't introduce a new form until half way through and it was the only one.

Modern DB is where they've gone crazy with it, both in terms of the main products (anime/manga) and games. Back in the day, forms were just part of a large story, now they're the story. No one says "how will thses characters develop" or "where can they take them next", now it's about what form they'll get. Same thing with the bigger plot, gone are the days of thinking about what new thing will be introduced and instead we're left wondering what previous elements will be brought back or what fan wish will come true.

[precita]

I like both the Cell and Buu arc for completely different reasons. I like the fact that Toriyama was so skilled as a story teller that he could do completely different things with each arc, along with his editor telling him to change things and story direction, and still have it turn out good.

People fail to remember each saga has a different tone and story structure. Just because something happens in one arc doesn't mean it's going to happen in the next.

[TheZFighter]

Z needed to exist because Z appearing on Cartoon Network is what got me hooked on this franchise in the first place.

I've given GT plenty of chances and I've never liked it at all, and I pretty much discount it altogether.

Super has its good and bad points but generally I enjoy it. I'm just glad to be getting new Dragon Ball content again.

[ABED]

But with Frieza they didn't go straight to the Genkai Dama, there were a dozen episodes of conflict and development. If they started straight with it, everything else would feel insignificant with no real buildup. That's my problem with the Final Atonement not even phazing Buu, it's just not the type of thing I can suspend my disbelief for. It's dumb.

Now that I think about it, do you think Goku could have charged up the Genkai Dama while he was in the rejuvenation tank?

But Vegeta's blast, while huge, was not their most powerful attack. I don't get what you find unbelievable about it in the context of the DB universe. This seems incredibly arbitrary.

That one had a proper beginning, middle, end. There was proper fight choreography, conflict, and the sense of both characters having to use every technique they can think of just to put the other down for good. Majin Vegeta's fight feels more like a "best of" montage than an actual fight. There were some cool moments, but that's just it, moments. The fight itself wasn't anything special.

Still couldn't disagree more. It's a different fight because Vegeta is at a different point in his development. It is a story, just a different story. There doesn't have to be an ending because the fight wasn't the climax of the Buu arc. It's a watershed moment for Vegeta, not the end battle.