Zamasu is basically a Bebi 2.0
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wolflonnie
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Re: Zamasu is basically a Bebi 2.0
Please. Zamasu is a complex villain, with different angles and sides, and a quite good development.
Re: Zamasu is basically a Bebi 2.0
So the thread creator is correct?wolflonnie wrote:Please. Zamasu is a complex villain, with different angles and sides, and a quite good development.
"Citation needed."
"too lazy
feel free to take it with grain of salt or discredit me altogether, I'm not losing any sleep"
"too lazy
feel free to take it with grain of salt or discredit me altogether, I'm not losing any sleep"
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ProtoTrunks76
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Re: Zamasu is basically a Bebi 2.0
"Mortals suck. Just ask those two dinosaur people I saw getting into a fight!"wolflonnie wrote:Please. Zamasu is a complex villain, with different angles and sides, and a quite good development.
Besides, all that "complexity" Zamasu may or may not have had in the beginning is completely discarded rather quickly in the later half of the Trunks arc.
Like one wise man said, if Zamasu truly was supposed to be a misguided deity who thinks he's doing right, why does he still act like any given Dragonball movie villain?
"Aside from one of them being "canon", there's little difference between them. They both are main villains who have a deep hatred for a particular race of life, use the new Dragon Balls introduced in their series to further their grand plans for the universe, both use Saiyan bodies for the power they feel they need to accomplish these plans, and both use altered Super Saiyan forms to match and surpass Goku. They also both share the same irony of the thing that they hate, Saiyans and Mortals respectively. The Mutant Tuffle and the tyrannical Kai ultimately become the very thing they hated in their quest to vanquish their respective races. Because of their deeds, they gained more sinister personalities and more destructive desire as a result: thus, destroying their race's good name. Also, Baby (while possessing Vegeta) shares similarities with Fused Zamasu as well, because as stated before, they ironically become the very thing they hated and destroyed their race's good name. They also gain further forms that end up nurturing their path to darkness. The "saviors" also have white hair when transforming into their Super Saiyan forms."
Don't use Formula 1 Race-cars to chase Deadly Androids
Re: Zamasu is basically a Bebi 2.0
I believe the nuances of Zamasu's characterisation and dialogue have helped to set him apart from Baby. I haven't watch GT in a very long time, but from what I can recall Baby was unabashedly committed to the restoration of his homeworld and the indiscriminate extermination of the Saiyans; except for those whom he took control of. The ultimate ideal of his pursuits was a universalised hive mind in which he assumes control of everyone. Being as that may, we saw how little he thought of the lives directly under his control when he feigned a mindless rampage to ascertain the strength of his Oozaru form. Solicitude and civility are traits beholden to the facade of Baby being a rightful appropriate leader to the brainwashed masses. In actuality, they mean about as much as any indentured servant who's expendable to Baby's cause. Baby will use and dispose of them as he sees fit. At best, you could say that he held a soft spot for Bulma for some reason, perhaps relating to the worthwhileness of her intelligence and the emotional connection that Baby's host may have had with her that's influencing his perception of her to some degree.
The indiscriminate ruthlessness of Baby's intended targets was hardly ever challenged from an ideological arguing point. I can only remember two occasions where the historical incident of the Tuffles' extinction was brought up, once by Vegeta who wrote it off as the consequence of the Tuffles being too weak so they were reduced to nothing by King Vegeta and again when Pan tearfully exclaimed how her parents weren't responsible for the destruction of Baby's species. However, both times the extent of their vociferations was denouncing Baby for his actions and the inadequacies of his people; neither Vegeta or Pan really pushed the issue of Baby's ethics nor did they go to any lengths to try and empathise with the unjust mass slaughtering of the Tuffels. They both just talked from a place of strength and factional absolution about their own loved ones being wronged.
Contrast the above situation with Zamasu. Unlike Baby, there were several occasions where he was verbally rebuked for what he was doing, citing the hypocrisy of his savagery when he's supposed to be a deity of creation that oversees life, not destroys it. I can cite an occasion where this happened:
---
Episode 61:
Trunks: What you're doing in the body of Goku-san, is mere murder!
Black: Is that so? You've committed a far graver sin than me.
Trunks: Sin?
Black: Trunks... You're one of the reasons why I wished for the extinction of humanity. By rewriting the past, a new Time Ring was created. That itself, is the proof of your sin. How many times have you came back and forth through time?
Zamasu: We know that you continued committing a taboo amongst gods, despite being a human.
Black: Trunks, you saved Son Goku who was supposed to die due to a heart virus. If he died as history dictated, I wouldn't have desired this body at all.
Zamasu: But because of you, the history was altered. The one who made the world like this is none other than you! All of this is caused by you, Trunks!
Black/Zamasu (together): Adding to that, this can only be blamed to the arrogance of humans creating your so called "Time Machine"!
Trunks' subsequent rebuttal is focused on validating the well-meaning efficacies of his actions. We know his meddling with the timeline created multiple rifts that forced the chronological progression to splinter five-way. Some worlds he saves, but in others the Earth is doomed or devoid of most life. It presents another moral quandary about the jeapordising of multiversal chrono-structural integrity just to save the lives of a mere planet. Meddling with time is an illicit practice that's decreed by all levels of the deistic echelon. Everyone from the Galactic Patrol, to the Kaioshins and the angels themselves generally recognise the action as detrimental to existence and is condemned. Why should a few individuals on a lone planet be allowed to arbitrarily subvert these laws just for their own self-preservation? Zamasu is aware of what he's done, hence why he claims that Trunks committed a "far graver" sin; he doesn't try to contest with the existence or severity of his own actions because he knows that they're egregious. What he's doing is pointing out how in relation to what Trunks has done by shunning multiversal law to rescue a man who was apparently slated for death by "normal" means and to thwart a relatively localised menace, he's thrown the temporal balance of creation out of order, an action that impacts everyone from the lowliest bacterium to the Omni-King himself.
Trunks' flirtation with time traveling isn't the only catalyst for Zamasu's crusade, as he himself points out. The constant civil strife and violence perpetrated amongst ningen which results in the destruction of others and nature represent the largest causal factors to his ambitions. We don't know enough about the other eleven universes to paint an accurate picture on what the state of affairs are like in those realms, but when you look at Universe 7 you'll see how disorderly and violent it is -- most of the galaxy subjugated by a tyrannical sociopath for decades who made an economic enterprise out of planetary slaughter, a largely inept system of authority that turns a blind eye to evil and criminality being perpetrated right in front of them, most species having some level of iniquity committed by their members, ect. On a more local level, the official Earth government was helpless to do anything when confronted by a paramilitary terrorist organisation. Instead they had to rely on a small alien child whimfully going about collecting some wish granting balls to do what the national military should have been doing. These conditions play further into Zamasu's narrative when you realise how Goku's first interaction and benefaction from gods came in the RRA arc when he trained with Karin.
---
Episode 66:
Merged Zamasu: Again? Once again, mortals? Mortals constantly imitate gods. Why is that? Because gods are greater? Because gods are too beautiful? But, is it woeful? Is it to be pitied? What becomes good when done by gods becomes evil when done by mortal and becomes sin.
If you take out all the blustering and embellishment, you'll see how Zamasu is criticising Vegetto for once again relying upon the tools and power of the gods to fuel his own proverbial war machine. Is Zamasu wrong for pointing this out? Since the Red Ribbon Army arc the cast has acquired their means for survival largely through the tutelage and devices of the gods. Goku successfully defeated Tao by undergoing the Choseisui training. Three years later he undergoes the trials of resisting the Choshinsui's poison from Karin to power himself up so he can face Piccolo Daimao. Following this, he's called up to Kami's Palace to build himself up so he can defeat Piccolo Jr. It goes on and on from there with the characters turning to some deity or deistic apparatus to strengthen themselves; the only exceptions are the gravity chamber training, golden transformations, zenkais, and Metamoran fusion. In fact, Vegetto Blue is the result of God Ki empowered Saiyans merging together using the Potara Earrings, a trump card empowerment device of the Kaioshin.
Where would our heroes be without all these opportunities and plot devices for growth? In some ways they do use this power to selfishly sate their own lust for battle. How else can you explain most incidents where Goku or Vegeta neglected to take the optimal method of approach in stopping a threat? It's very fortunate for Earth and the universe as a whole that the Saiyans appear to be capable of becoming so powerful and the gods have taken such a strong interest in them. Where would they be without them? I feel that's one grievance that Zamasu should have also brought up. How can a universe survive when all of its eggs are placed into the basket of an amnesiac fighter junkie and a murderous ex-pirate who cares for little else beyond himself and his own loved ones? If I were a member of U7 and knew about these circumstances, I would be very concerned.
Zamasu himself has described what he's doing as a purification of the inadequacies of godhood and the sins of ningen. In his warped mentality, he's martyring himself by taking a ningen into his fundamental being while quelling the ningen menace. To shoulder the injustices and shortcomings of everyone is what Zamasu is chiefly interested in. Baby cares very little for anything except himself and perhaps to a lesser extent his newly reconstructed Tuffle homeworld. The rebirth of the Tuffle species is a major aspect of his plan, but most of them are expendable. Baby made that perfectly clear when he stomped about destroying the planet's newly remade infrastructure and burning untold numbers of his people alive after transforming into an Oozaru. We don't know what Zamasu's interactions with the non ningen like animals and monsters was like, but he still showed greater interest in preserving the world's natural livelihood than Baby did. One quote from episode 56 gives us some personal reflection from Black on the horrid state of affairs placed before him with the city's devastation:
---
Episode 56:
Black: How sad this world looks. However, I can see the future of this world without the intervention of those insects called humans.
Black is personally lamenting to himself about the carnage he's personally wrought. For him to feel any inkling of disgust with the physical aftermath of his actions, prior to the final actualisation of ningen's destruction that is, shows that he does harbour some measure of self-awareness. The ruins of the city represent the imperfection and barbarity of ningen. I suppose what he thinks to be doing is purging the constructs that indicated ningen's existence and for the planet to reclaim that space by regrowing and repopulating there. When you think about it like that, Zamasu almost sounds like an eco-terrorist who's interested in turning back the clock on man's destruction of the environment. But through constant adversities endured through fighting the Saiyans, Zamasu gradually became less and less mentally stable to the point where his only interest was destroying every shred of life in existence.
Going back to the issue of Zamasu's parametres for execution, he rationalises his pursuit of the other gods as a precautionary measure to ensure that they don't interfere:
---
Episode 63:
Gowasu: Why did you attack the gods?!
Black: You all would never understand my ideals and would try to stop me.
So Black's actions against the gods are motivated primarily by a weariness of their potential intervention against him. Does this universally apply to every celestial being? What about the local gods, King Yemma, or the ogres that are in Yemma's employ? If none of them have the power to oppose Zamasu and if they're remaining impassively neutral then what what reason would he have for killing them? It's the details of Zamasu's dealings with these questions that I feel would help separate him further from Baby. Our only on-screen encounter between Zamasu and a celestial neutral observer is with Zuno. We saw that he was aggressive and verbally severe throughout the meeting. Does this indicate what Zamasu's treatment of other gods may have been in his new world order? Perhaps, though it's apparent that Zamasu was being pressed for time and was feeling compelled to know about as much about the Dragonballs as possible behind Gowasu's back.
None of this is a justification for what Zamasu has done; he's a homicidal blood-lusted fanatic who thinks that one species' actions automatically condemns the entirety of ningen. I'm only pointing out that the dialogue and conduct seen from him throughout the Future Trunks arc connotes to a mildly more dynamic character, by Dragon Ball standards, than Baby. The Tuffle's actions were barely an incentive for Baby to go crazy in killing the protagonist, enslaving the Earth, and becoming the most powerful being in the universe. No one took any significant interest in Baby's background nor did they wish to address it. Zamasu is literally a fall from grace tragic story with various external impetuses prompting him into action. Contrary to Baby, he acknowledges what he's done while being challenged by others for his actions while trying to counter with some kind of counterargument he believes is justifying his own crimes.
Oddly enough, despite everything he's done, I feel Zamasu's points about Trunks' time traveling throwing a wrench in the chronological flow of life, ningen relying upon the power of gods for their own interests, and the species generally being subjected to iniquity or idly sitting aside while it permeates all hold some validity to them. You can't just rely on one man or group to save you; that was one of the moral lessons of the Buu arc before Toriyama pulled the rug up from underneath the "next generation". In a greater context, turning to a battle-driven species with special transformations doesn't sound very healthy nor does it paint the rest of creation in a very positive light. They can't defend themselves without the Saiyans being around. How does that reflect on their general competency? Again, the other universes are still up for debate, though the fact they would allow someone like Hit to use his time distortion powers suggests some blind eye turning on their gods' part as well.
The indiscriminate ruthlessness of Baby's intended targets was hardly ever challenged from an ideological arguing point. I can only remember two occasions where the historical incident of the Tuffles' extinction was brought up, once by Vegeta who wrote it off as the consequence of the Tuffles being too weak so they were reduced to nothing by King Vegeta and again when Pan tearfully exclaimed how her parents weren't responsible for the destruction of Baby's species. However, both times the extent of their vociferations was denouncing Baby for his actions and the inadequacies of his people; neither Vegeta or Pan really pushed the issue of Baby's ethics nor did they go to any lengths to try and empathise with the unjust mass slaughtering of the Tuffels. They both just talked from a place of strength and factional absolution about their own loved ones being wronged.
Contrast the above situation with Zamasu. Unlike Baby, there were several occasions where he was verbally rebuked for what he was doing, citing the hypocrisy of his savagery when he's supposed to be a deity of creation that oversees life, not destroys it. I can cite an occasion where this happened:
---
Episode 61:
Trunks: What you're doing in the body of Goku-san, is mere murder!
Black: Is that so? You've committed a far graver sin than me.
Trunks: Sin?
Black: Trunks... You're one of the reasons why I wished for the extinction of humanity. By rewriting the past, a new Time Ring was created. That itself, is the proof of your sin. How many times have you came back and forth through time?
Zamasu: We know that you continued committing a taboo amongst gods, despite being a human.
Black: Trunks, you saved Son Goku who was supposed to die due to a heart virus. If he died as history dictated, I wouldn't have desired this body at all.
Zamasu: But because of you, the history was altered. The one who made the world like this is none other than you! All of this is caused by you, Trunks!
Black/Zamasu (together): Adding to that, this can only be blamed to the arrogance of humans creating your so called "Time Machine"!
Trunks' subsequent rebuttal is focused on validating the well-meaning efficacies of his actions. We know his meddling with the timeline created multiple rifts that forced the chronological progression to splinter five-way. Some worlds he saves, but in others the Earth is doomed or devoid of most life. It presents another moral quandary about the jeapordising of multiversal chrono-structural integrity just to save the lives of a mere planet. Meddling with time is an illicit practice that's decreed by all levels of the deistic echelon. Everyone from the Galactic Patrol, to the Kaioshins and the angels themselves generally recognise the action as detrimental to existence and is condemned. Why should a few individuals on a lone planet be allowed to arbitrarily subvert these laws just for their own self-preservation? Zamasu is aware of what he's done, hence why he claims that Trunks committed a "far graver" sin; he doesn't try to contest with the existence or severity of his own actions because he knows that they're egregious. What he's doing is pointing out how in relation to what Trunks has done by shunning multiversal law to rescue a man who was apparently slated for death by "normal" means and to thwart a relatively localised menace, he's thrown the temporal balance of creation out of order, an action that impacts everyone from the lowliest bacterium to the Omni-King himself.
Trunks' flirtation with time traveling isn't the only catalyst for Zamasu's crusade, as he himself points out. The constant civil strife and violence perpetrated amongst ningen which results in the destruction of others and nature represent the largest causal factors to his ambitions. We don't know enough about the other eleven universes to paint an accurate picture on what the state of affairs are like in those realms, but when you look at Universe 7 you'll see how disorderly and violent it is -- most of the galaxy subjugated by a tyrannical sociopath for decades who made an economic enterprise out of planetary slaughter, a largely inept system of authority that turns a blind eye to evil and criminality being perpetrated right in front of them, most species having some level of iniquity committed by their members, ect. On a more local level, the official Earth government was helpless to do anything when confronted by a paramilitary terrorist organisation. Instead they had to rely on a small alien child whimfully going about collecting some wish granting balls to do what the national military should have been doing. These conditions play further into Zamasu's narrative when you realise how Goku's first interaction and benefaction from gods came in the RRA arc when he trained with Karin.
---
Episode 66:
Merged Zamasu: Again? Once again, mortals? Mortals constantly imitate gods. Why is that? Because gods are greater? Because gods are too beautiful? But, is it woeful? Is it to be pitied? What becomes good when done by gods becomes evil when done by mortal and becomes sin.
If you take out all the blustering and embellishment, you'll see how Zamasu is criticising Vegetto for once again relying upon the tools and power of the gods to fuel his own proverbial war machine. Is Zamasu wrong for pointing this out? Since the Red Ribbon Army arc the cast has acquired their means for survival largely through the tutelage and devices of the gods. Goku successfully defeated Tao by undergoing the Choseisui training. Three years later he undergoes the trials of resisting the Choshinsui's poison from Karin to power himself up so he can face Piccolo Daimao. Following this, he's called up to Kami's Palace to build himself up so he can defeat Piccolo Jr. It goes on and on from there with the characters turning to some deity or deistic apparatus to strengthen themselves; the only exceptions are the gravity chamber training, golden transformations, zenkais, and Metamoran fusion. In fact, Vegetto Blue is the result of God Ki empowered Saiyans merging together using the Potara Earrings, a trump card empowerment device of the Kaioshin.
Where would our heroes be without all these opportunities and plot devices for growth? In some ways they do use this power to selfishly sate their own lust for battle. How else can you explain most incidents where Goku or Vegeta neglected to take the optimal method of approach in stopping a threat? It's very fortunate for Earth and the universe as a whole that the Saiyans appear to be capable of becoming so powerful and the gods have taken such a strong interest in them. Where would they be without them? I feel that's one grievance that Zamasu should have also brought up. How can a universe survive when all of its eggs are placed into the basket of an amnesiac fighter junkie and a murderous ex-pirate who cares for little else beyond himself and his own loved ones? If I were a member of U7 and knew about these circumstances, I would be very concerned.
Zamasu himself has described what he's doing as a purification of the inadequacies of godhood and the sins of ningen. In his warped mentality, he's martyring himself by taking a ningen into his fundamental being while quelling the ningen menace. To shoulder the injustices and shortcomings of everyone is what Zamasu is chiefly interested in. Baby cares very little for anything except himself and perhaps to a lesser extent his newly reconstructed Tuffle homeworld. The rebirth of the Tuffle species is a major aspect of his plan, but most of them are expendable. Baby made that perfectly clear when he stomped about destroying the planet's newly remade infrastructure and burning untold numbers of his people alive after transforming into an Oozaru. We don't know what Zamasu's interactions with the non ningen like animals and monsters was like, but he still showed greater interest in preserving the world's natural livelihood than Baby did. One quote from episode 56 gives us some personal reflection from Black on the horrid state of affairs placed before him with the city's devastation:
---
Episode 56:
Black: How sad this world looks. However, I can see the future of this world without the intervention of those insects called humans.
Black is personally lamenting to himself about the carnage he's personally wrought. For him to feel any inkling of disgust with the physical aftermath of his actions, prior to the final actualisation of ningen's destruction that is, shows that he does harbour some measure of self-awareness. The ruins of the city represent the imperfection and barbarity of ningen. I suppose what he thinks to be doing is purging the constructs that indicated ningen's existence and for the planet to reclaim that space by regrowing and repopulating there. When you think about it like that, Zamasu almost sounds like an eco-terrorist who's interested in turning back the clock on man's destruction of the environment. But through constant adversities endured through fighting the Saiyans, Zamasu gradually became less and less mentally stable to the point where his only interest was destroying every shred of life in existence.
Going back to the issue of Zamasu's parametres for execution, he rationalises his pursuit of the other gods as a precautionary measure to ensure that they don't interfere:
---
Episode 63:
Gowasu: Why did you attack the gods?!
Black: You all would never understand my ideals and would try to stop me.
So Black's actions against the gods are motivated primarily by a weariness of their potential intervention against him. Does this universally apply to every celestial being? What about the local gods, King Yemma, or the ogres that are in Yemma's employ? If none of them have the power to oppose Zamasu and if they're remaining impassively neutral then what what reason would he have for killing them? It's the details of Zamasu's dealings with these questions that I feel would help separate him further from Baby. Our only on-screen encounter between Zamasu and a celestial neutral observer is with Zuno. We saw that he was aggressive and verbally severe throughout the meeting. Does this indicate what Zamasu's treatment of other gods may have been in his new world order? Perhaps, though it's apparent that Zamasu was being pressed for time and was feeling compelled to know about as much about the Dragonballs as possible behind Gowasu's back.
None of this is a justification for what Zamasu has done; he's a homicidal blood-lusted fanatic who thinks that one species' actions automatically condemns the entirety of ningen. I'm only pointing out that the dialogue and conduct seen from him throughout the Future Trunks arc connotes to a mildly more dynamic character, by Dragon Ball standards, than Baby. The Tuffle's actions were barely an incentive for Baby to go crazy in killing the protagonist, enslaving the Earth, and becoming the most powerful being in the universe. No one took any significant interest in Baby's background nor did they wish to address it. Zamasu is literally a fall from grace tragic story with various external impetuses prompting him into action. Contrary to Baby, he acknowledges what he's done while being challenged by others for his actions while trying to counter with some kind of counterargument he believes is justifying his own crimes.
Oddly enough, despite everything he's done, I feel Zamasu's points about Trunks' time traveling throwing a wrench in the chronological flow of life, ningen relying upon the power of gods for their own interests, and the species generally being subjected to iniquity or idly sitting aside while it permeates all hold some validity to them. You can't just rely on one man or group to save you; that was one of the moral lessons of the Buu arc before Toriyama pulled the rug up from underneath the "next generation". In a greater context, turning to a battle-driven species with special transformations doesn't sound very healthy nor does it paint the rest of creation in a very positive light. They can't defend themselves without the Saiyans being around. How does that reflect on their general competency? Again, the other universes are still up for debate, though the fact they would allow someone like Hit to use his time distortion powers suggests some blind eye turning on their gods' part as well.