SSJ Multiplier Can Increase

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The first statement you made does support the idea that there is any multipliers only that super saiyan makes you stronger which we already knew anyway. Also the daizenshuu has made multiple statements that contradict things stated in the manga and recent things. Ratiz power level, potara being permanent, Gohan being rusty. Most of the daizenshuu is 50 50 at best. The daizenshuu has never once been a reliable source and hardly means anymore than the gt files or any promotional material. Because that's really all the daizenshuu is promotional material. Also no Gt is not any different from using the daizenshuu because Toriyama had the same involvement in both. At this point your just saying whatever. There is no reason or any logic reason at all why super saiyan 2 power level can be raised and super saiyan 1s cant and you still haven't provided a reason why. They are all the same form. The reason why they are called 2 and 3 and graded and what not is simply for convenience but in universe they are still the same form. It's like if you change the settings on your tv. Also yes I read Toriyama statement he didn't say anything about new forms. If anything is statement was to say stop focusing on new forms and go back to the basics. I'm sorry but your argument falls flat and you still haven't said anything that supports the idea of super saiyan being a static multiper. Actually I don't even think the Daizenshuu said it couldn't be increased you said that. If super saiyan 2 power level can rise we have no reason to assume that none of the others can't. That's why this argument is pointless because you are just saying they can't without any reason or evidence why.

Once again, YOU are the one making assumptions. We have no factual proof that the original/mastered SS form's multiplier is anything besides a 50 times boost when used normally, nor that it can be increased on its own. What we DO have are OFFICIAL supplementary materials to back up the static multiplication. Supplementary, but OFFICIAL nonetheless. There have been NO retcons about the original/mastered SS form to date in that regard, compared to things like the Potara earings and SS2.

Guess what? SS Grades 2/3 and SS2, being the same form according to Toriyama and you, is already your proof that the original SS form's power can be increased. And guess what else? In that regard, you've been arguing a moot point in the first place because your question has been answered. Not the answer you're looking for?

Go ahead. Find the exact statement or scene from a guidebook, the manga, or the anime that DEFINITIVELY PROVES that your point is correct, that the original/mastered SS form's multiplication can be increased beyond its official 50 times boost. Go ahead. Do it. Right now or with some time. If you can do this, then we concede the point to you. If you can't, then don't go around presuming your assumptions and headcanon to be factually true.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The first statement you made does support the idea that there is any multipliers only that super saiyan makes you stronger which we already knew anyway. Also the daizenshuu has made multiple statements that contradict things stated in the manga and recent things. Ratiz power level, potara being permanent, Gohan being rusty. Most of the daizenshuu is 50 50 at best. The daizenshuu has never once been a reliable source and hardly means anymore than the gt files or any promotional material. Because that's really all the daizenshuu is promotional material. Also no Gt is not any different from using the daizenshuu because Toriyama had the same involvement in both. At this point your just saying whatever. There is no reason or any logic reason at all why super saiyan 2 power level can be raised and super saiyan 1s cant and you still haven't provided a reason why. They are all the same form. The reason why they are called 2 and 3 and graded and what not is simply for convenience but in universe they are still the same form. It's like if you change the settings on your tv. Also yes I read Toriyama statement he didn't say anything about new forms. If anything is statement was to say stop focusing on new forms and go back to the basics. I'm sorry but your argument falls flat and you still haven't said anything that supports the idea of super saiyan being a static multiper. Actually I don't even think the Daizenshuu said it couldn't be increased you said that. If super saiyan 2 power level can rise we have no reason to assume that none of the others can't. That's why this argument is pointless because you are just saying they can't without any reason or evidence why.

The guidebooks are wrong when they are wrong. This doesn't mean we have to question everything. The manga also has so many plot-holes, so why are you using it as a source?

Never mind. It's pointless to argue like this. You're being told that when their power gets multiplied, it doesn't need to be by a single value, but a range that goes from the currently known ones (50 up to 100 up to 400 and so on). If Goku's power is 12'000k at base, then it can go up to 600'000k before SSJ, stay like with SSJ at its minimum, increase towards half (800'000k) of its full power, or stay like that throughout the battle (1'200'000k). Your post aren't being read because you're relying (and not just you) on too many quoting chains. How is anyone supposed to follow all of this?

I only used many quoting chains in my last post, after your post. You and others are saying things, but I don't see any evidence, all I see is head-canon ideas, excuses to ignore the guidebooks, excuses to make Toriyama's supervision pointless, and taking Toriyama's statements completely out of context, and then you attack anyone who argues with you by saying "you are stubborn, it's pointless, I can't even bother to read your posts, you are wrong, nvm".

If you guys were respectful of others' opinions, and just said "look, I don't care what the guidebooks say on this personally, even if Toriyama approved them, but this & that is what I personally believe because the manga is what's canon for me, but you can believe what you want if you want to follow the guidebooks or whatever else", then I would accept your opinion. But what you guys are trying to do is shove your opinion in my ass that "you shouldn't follow the guidebooks, you are wrong for doing this, you are dumb for thinking Toriyama really approved them" and all that up in your high horse because "we know better than you, don't listen to him guys, I can't even bother to argue with you". This is ridiculous.

[Okora]

The first statement you made does support the idea that there is any multipliers only that super saiyan makes you stronger which we already knew anyway. Also the daizenshuu has made multiple statements that contradict things stated in the manga and recent things. Ratiz power level, potara being permanent, Gohan being rusty. Most of the daizenshuu is 50 50 at best. The daizenshuu has never once been a reliable source and hardly means anymore than the gt files or any promotional material. Because that's really all the daizenshuu is promotional material. Also no Gt is not any different from using the daizenshuu because Toriyama had the same involvement in both. At this point your just saying whatever. There is no reason or any logic reason at all why super saiyan 2 power level can be raised and super saiyan 1s cant and you still haven't provided a reason why. They are all the same form. The reason why they are called 2 and 3 and graded and what not is simply for convenience but in universe they are still the same form. It's like if you change the settings on your tv. Also yes I read Toriyama statement he didn't say anything about new forms. If anything is statement was to say stop focusing on new forms and go back to the basics. I'm sorry but your argument falls flat and you still haven't said anything that supports the idea of super saiyan being a static multiper. Actually I don't even think the Daizenshuu said it couldn't be increased you said that. If super saiyan 2 power level can rise we have no reason to assume that none of the others can't. That's why this argument is pointless because you are just saying they can't without any reason or evidence why.

Once again, YOU are the one making assumptions. We have no factual proof that the original/mastered SS form's multiplier is anything besides a 50 times boost when used normally, nor that it can be increased on its own. What we DO have are OFFICIAL supplementary materials to back up the static multiplication. Supplementary, but OFFICIAL nonetheless. There have been NO retcons about the original/mastered SS form to date in that regard, compared to things like the Potara earings and SS2.

Guess what? SS Grades 2/3 and SS2, being the same form according to Toriyama and you, is already your proof that the original SS form's power can be increased. And guess what else? In that regard, you've been arguing a moot point in the first place because your question has been answered. Not the answer you're looking for?

Go ahead. Find the exact statement or scene from a guidebook, the manga, or the anime that DEFINITIVELY PROVES that your point is correct, that the original/mastered SS form's multiplication can be increased beyond its official 50 times boost. Go ahead. Do it. Right now or with some time. If you can do this, then we concede the point to you. If you can't, then don't go around presuming your assumptions and headcanon to be factually true.

When did I assume anything? We have no proof it raises or doesn't raise lack of proof is not proof. But there is still muiltiple evidence that it can raise and none saying that it can't. Yes all the super saiyans graded 2 and 3s they are all the same form just different versions of that form. What have I been mout about exactly. You keep telling people to give proof but none of the people saying it can't be raised have actually given proof towards that and whenever somebody does give evidence towards it being risen you just dismiss it based on your own assumptions. Honestly your entire argument here is hypocritical. The daizenshuu means nothing more than any of the other promotinal stuff because toriyama have very little involvement in all of it and even still there is nothing in the daizenshuu that says a super saiyan will always be 50 and can never rise. Based on that logic super saiyan 2 can't rise in power either since the daizenshuu said it's only twice as strong as normal super saiyan. But guess what? Thats not true mastering super saiyan 2 made it stronger so why can't mastering super saiyan make it stronger. Your argument doesn't make anysense you are just dismissing what other people say because it conflicts with what you believe to be the case

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Absence of evidence isn't evidence. Is there any indication that the multiplier of the Super Saiyan forms can change through training? Except than Super Saiyan 2 in the Super manga & except when the SSG power is involved of course.

[Okora]

Absence of evidence isn't evidence. Is there any indication that the multiplier of the Super Saiyan forms can change through training? Except than Super Saiyan 2 in the Super manga & except when the SSG power is involved of course.

And is there any evidence that there isn't. This argument goes both ways and there is evidence that it can be increased and zero that it can't. There is absolutely nothing supporting your side of the argument not even the daizenshuu because that doesn't say they are static multipers either. And you still haven't provided any evidence it can't be raised you just tried to shoot down any argument that it could

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Absence of evidence isn't evidence. Is there any indication that the multiplier of the Super Saiyan forms can change through training? Except than Super Saiyan 2 in the Super manga & except when the SSG power is involved of course.

And is there any evidence that there isn't. This argument goes both ways and there is evidence that it can be increased and zero that it can't. There is absolutely nothing supporting your side of the argument not even the daizenshuu because that doesn't say they are static multipers either. And you still haven't provided any evidence it can't be raised you just tried to shoot down any argument that it could

That's not how it works. I don't have to prove you that you are wrong when you can't even prove me that you are right. By your logic, I could say that Mai is Bulma's lost sister. Nothing contradicts it, right?

[Okora]

Absence of evidence isn't evidence. Is there any indication that the multiplier of the Super Saiyan forms can change through training? Except than Super Saiyan 2 in the Super manga & except when the SSG power is involved of course.

And is there any evidence that there isn't. This argument goes both ways and there is evidence that it can be increased and zero that it can't. There is absolutely nothing supporting your side of the argument not even the daizenshuu because that doesn't say they are static multipers either. And you still haven't provided any evidence it can't be raised you just tried to shoot down any argument that it could

That's not how it works. I don't have to prove you that you are wrong when you can't even prove me that you are right. By your logic, I could say that Mai is Bulma's lost sister. Nothing contradicts it, right?

It's not how what works exactly. You say it can't be raised but provided nothing saying it can't and whenever someone actualy gives evidence for it being raised you said they are wrong, it's not evidence and everyone is misinterated. " I don't have to prove you that you are wrong when you can't even prove me that you are right" This makes it sound like you are always right no matter what and that you will hold that stance no matter what anyone says which is why this argument is pointless. We provided evidence and muitiple examples for why it could be raise das well as intveriews and you have done absolutely nothing but try to say everyone else is wrong excapt you. Even you talking to me about evidence is extremely hypocritical because everyone actually did say it could be increased provided far more evidence than you did in this entire discussion. But you just shot tried and failed to shot them down simply because you didn't agree. Then you treated vegeta's statement that super saiyan makes you stronger as undeniable proof that super saiyan is a static multiplier that can't be increased which doesn't make any sense at all. Like it or not Toriyama says training super saiyan can raise it's level. And if you honestly think he didn't mean it the way everyone else is saying the provide a real logic argument for why instead of saying everyone who disagrees with you is wrong. At this point your just trying to twist the statement around so it fits what you believed to be the case before

[DBZGTKOSDH]

" I don't have to prove you that you are wrong when you can't even prove me that you are right" This makes it sound like you are always right no matter what and that you will hold that stance no matter what anyone says which is why this argument is pointless.

I'm not saying that I'm always right. I'm saying that all we've been told about the power increase of the Super Saiyan forms is that they give a power increase. In the original manga, there haven't been any indications at all about the power increase of the Super Saiyan forms changing, even if we ignore the guidebooks, and in Super it only happened in specific occations, not for all transformations.

We provided evidence and muitiple examples for why it could be raise das well as intveriews

No, you did not. You provided assumptions & a statement from Toriyama that has been taken out of context.

[Okora]

" I don't have to prove you that you are wrong when you can't even prove me that you are right" This makes it sound like you are always right no matter what and that you will hold that stance no matter what anyone says which is why this argument is pointless.

I'm not saying that I'm always right. I'm saying that all we've been told about the power increase of the Super Saiyan forms is that they give a power increase. In the original manga, there haven't been any indications at all about the power increase of the Super Saiyan forms changing, even if we ignore the guidebooks, and in Super it only happened in specific occations, not for all transformations.

We provided evidence and muitiple examples for why it could be raise das well as intveriews

No, you did not. You provided assumptions & a statement from Toriyama that has been taken out of context.

YEs you are you just said everyone else is wrong and and that everyone is just making assumptions then enver actually gave a reason why are any evidence to why you think that. We gave evidence that the multipler can be increased and quoted the invrview and then you just said everone is wrong and only super saiyan 2 can get stronger even though toriyama said it's the same for as super saiyan. There is no point in this argument because you have the you are always right mindset and everyone else is wrong if they don't agree with you