What Do You NOT Want To See in Episodes 109-110?

[TheMikado]

Having characters still be “missing” or hidden.
Jiren being boring
Jiren being stupid powerful
Goku doing something stupid that he know shouldn’t work like throwing a spirit blob at a good person
That stupid thing Goku does like throwing a spirit bomb at a good person doesn’t work for reasons the audience knew and should have never been done on the first place but Goku forgot...
Goku as SSBxKKx20 still not as strong as Beerus
Randomly transforming
No explanation for the form
Form is actually based on move without thinking technique
This technique somehow lets him physically overpower Jiren
Find out later both Jiren and Goku were “holding back”

Dude, recommendation of course, don't watch the special.

You aren't going to enjoy it nor do you seem to even WANT to!

Just read the posts here.

I don’t see anything wrong with wanted better storytelling. What I’m really asking is that they take into consideration all the previous story and lore and hopefully make it make sense with this latest addition. There’s nothing wrong with wanting a well thought out story.

[Spider-Man]

The voices could potentially be fixed in the dub but even if they do there's no getting around the way they're written. The franchise has shown the ability of writing great characters like Bulma, Launch, 18 & Videl (Buu arc) so I don't know how they dropped the ball this bad.

But lunch is just a one note gag character and yeah bulma along with future mai are good character IMO.

[sintzu]

You aren't going to enjoy it nor do you seem to even WANT to!

There’s nothing wrong with wanting a well thought out story.

It seems like having any sort of expectations is too much now. These same "fans" would most likely rip any other show apart for a fraction of what Super has done so far.

But lunch is just a one note gag character.

She was at least funny when on screen (not all the time). She had some redeaming quality to her.

[Spider-Man]

Ohh and another thing i don't want the god of destruction say some pointless stuff.

[Doctor.]

I don't want it to be bad.

[SaiyanGod117]

When people talk about how great Goku vs Cell is, they most likely think about this cut of animation:
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

No, they actually talk about the whole fight from start to finish, that part of that fight was definitely a highlight, but it’s not the whole thing.

Of course, a lot of people don't know that part of the fight wasn't even produced by Toei Animation. In fact, the entire episode where that cut of animation takes place in (Episode 179), which I will admit is one of the high points in the franchise in terms of fight choreography blended with good animation, was produced by an outside studio called Studio Cockpit. Prior to that episode, Goku vs Cell was pretty unspectacular visually and in terms of fight choreography in the anime. The fight in the manga though, that was awesome.

Does it actually matter if it was animated by another studio? It’s still a DBZ fight nonetheless, more else Toei isn’t the same studio they were 22 years ago. They can actually afford to make animation in-house now.

It's the same deal with Goku vs Majin Vegeta.

Everyone remembers this piece of good animation:
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]
And thinks that how the entire fight was, but it wasn't. 90% of that fight was really nothing special in terms of animation or fight choreography.

Well for the time it was, maybe not now of course, but it’s still overall a really solid fight for even today. More else it looks better than most of Super’s fight.

[fadeddreams5]

I don't want it to be bad.

This show is not for you, then.

[Avok]

I for one hope that Jiren powers up and all of the fodder gets blown away. I miss the cool looking scenes where a character powers up and there's wind and debris flying around and everyone gets blown back.

You get a cool scene and get rid of fodder and boring characters, all in one go.

[Lord Beerus]

Does it actually matter if it was animated by another studio? It’s still a DBZ fight nonetheless, more else Toei isn’t the same studio they were 22 years ago. They can actually afford to make animation in-house now.

For this argument, yes, it does matter. People expecting a certain quality of animation and fight choreography that Toei themselves were capable of producing during the Z era. That's not to say that Toei is not capable of producing great animation. Precure and several of the One Piece movies are proof of this.

Well for the time it was, maybe not now of course, but it’s still overall a really solid fight for even today. More else it looks better than most of Super’s fight.

No, even during the 1990s that fight was still pretty unspectacular compared to what other shonen anime were producing.

[Totamo]

Having characters still be “missing” or hidden.
Jiren being boring
Jiren being stupid powerful
Goku doing something stupid that he know shouldn’t work like throwing a spirit blob at a good person
That stupid thing Goku does like throwing a spirit bomb at a good person doesn’t work for reasons the audience knew and should have never been done on the first place but Goku forgot...
Goku as SSBxKKx20 still not as strong as Beerus
Randomly transforming
No explanation for the form
Form is actually based on move without thinking technique
This technique somehow lets him physically overpower Jiren
Find out later both Jiren and Goku were “holding back”

Dude, recommendation of course, don't watch the special.

You aren't going to enjoy it nor do you seem to even WANT to!

Just read the posts here.

I don’t see anything wrong with wanted better storytelling. What I’m really asking is that they take into consideration all the previous story and lore and hopefully make it make sense with this latest addition. There’s nothing wrong with wanting a well thought out story.

Thats not what I implied and you know thats not what I implied. But when you have a list that DAMN long about a series 100 episodes in, that tells me that super has not given you these things and you don't expect it to otherwise you would simply say "I want it to make sense." Which everyone knows it won't and that Beerus one is not happening either because we. don't. know. how. strong. beerus. is.

So why are you going to watch something you know you won't like or will try to like. What do you expect me to say besides spend your time elsewhere.

Not to mention half the crap you listed already happened in Z and you probably would defend or can you explain with a straight face how androids 16, 17 and 18 are stronger than Freeza when Gero never even knew what namek was.

[Totamo]

You aren't going to enjoy it nor do you seem to even WANT to!

There’s nothing wrong with wanting a well thought out story.

It seems like having any sort of expectations is too much now. These same "fans" would most likely rip any other show apart for a fraction of what Super has done so far.

But lunch is just a one note gag character.

She was at least funny when on screen (not all the time). She had some redeaming quality to her.

No one is saying you can't have expectations but this isn't a new series. Super is not going to change and why would it?

This is like going to Fairy tail and getting mad when a friendship power up happens or naruto and talk no jutsu activates.

YOU.KNOW. THE. SHOW!!!!!!!!

[SaiyanGod117]

For this argument, yes, it does matter. People expecting a certain quality of animation and fight choreography that Toei themselves were capable of producing during the Z era. That's not to say that Toei is not capable of producing great animation. Precure and several of the One Piece movies are proof of this.

I think not, definitely not actually. Expecting a significantly higher caliber of animation to be produced in the late 2010s than from the early 1990s is practical. Especially, since Toei has far exceeded the studio who made Goku vs Cell in manpower, talent, resources, and money.

No, even during the 1990s that fight was still pretty unspectacular compared to what other shonen anime were producing.

I haven’t watched Yu Yu Hakusho, but I have watched Ruroni Kenshin and if I were to compare the two in-terms of animation DBZ would take the cake. Ruroni Kenshin has barely any good animated fights, out of all the doezens fights that’s happened in the show. Their would be only two well animated ones, plus there’s nothing spectacular about them, sure the Ruroni Kenshin cut is fluid. However, it lacks choreography and much of it’s composed of jumping and flailing around a sword. Nonetheless, good animation isn’t the only aspect of a good fight.

[TheMikado]

Dude, recommendation of course, don't watch the special.

You aren't going to enjoy it nor do you seem to even WANT to!

Just read the posts here.

I don’t see anything wrong with wanted better storytelling. What I’m really asking is that they take into consideration all the previous story and lore and hopefully make it make sense with this latest addition. There’s nothing wrong with wanting a well thought out story.

Thats not what I implied and you know thats not what I implied. But when you have a list that DAMN long about a series 100 episodes in, that tells me that super has not given you these things and you don't expect it to otherwise you would simply say "I want it to make sense." Which everyone knows it won't and that Beerus one is not happening either because we. don't. know. how. strong. beerus. is.

So why are you going to watch something you know you won't like or will try to like. What do you expect me to say besides spend your time elsewhere.

Not to mention half the crap you listed already happened in Z and you probably would defend or can you explain with a straight face how androids 16, 17 and 18 are stronger than Freeza when Gero never even knew what namek was.

Hmm super confused by this response in a thread asking what I don’t want to see and I’m actually able to list these things... without complaining about them?? The things listed could be considered legitimately poor story telling so I don’t see why I can’t not want to see them. And somehow I shouldn’t want good things from Super??

That’s such a shame. But you do encourage everyone to drop the show who doesn’t like it and it certainly does seem to be working because Supers ratings are getting WORSE not better so keep up the good work your crusade to get people to stop watching the show so the ratings can continue to drop by hundreds of thousands of viewers. It’s working, actually working very effectively at making people not watch the show and the ratings drop.

So to answer your android question, 17&18 were sealed away because they were too powerful and non compliant. They were “accidentally” that strong, not designed that way. Out of universe Toriyama needed to make up a legitimate reason for there to be a stronger entity out there than Frieza that no one ever heard of, thus they were specifically created to get around that plot hole. Whether you like the fact that they are that strong or not is irrelevant, the fact that the author took the time to attempt to fill the plot hole is the point.
Having Jiren being dramatically stronger than SSBxKKx20 Goku is much more bizarre because the reason for his strength isn’t some freak accident granting him “infinite energy” at least that we know of at this point. So far it’s just been presented that he “just is” this strong without a real reason why and has no real wide acclaim or infamy for it. If the androids had been presented in the same way of just showing up and being much stronger than SSJ Goku just because it would have been equally BS. But Toriyama at that time recognizes this as a storyteller and used a plot device “limitless energy” as a means to justify the BS power. This far we haven’t even gotten an attempt at justification for Jirens strength in-universe.

And that is the key difference in writing then vs now and why I would like to NOT see certain things and would LIKE to see things at least attempted to be explained. I may not like SSGs lore at all but at least it has both lore and justification for its strength. BS though it may be I appreciate that for at least the attempt at spinning a narrative.

[Xeogran]

I for one hope that Jiren powers up and all of the fodder gets blown away. I miss the cool looking scenes where a character powers up and there's wind and debris flying around and everyone gets blown back.

You get a cool scene and get rid of fodder and boring characters, all in one go.

More like you get an overused trope and pointlessly getting rid of characters that could potentially shine.

This isn't a 1 on 1 Tournament and everyone needs something to do. Otherwise they would all be attacking Jiren come next ep.

[Lionel]

Many of the acknowledged apprehensions in this topic are what I share. What I can personally offer is a weariness of the Kaioken's inclusion being filtered out after Goku acquires his new form since it may not permit for an amplification technique as dangerous as the Kaioken to be meshed into it. The fight itself will likely be good since the big budget fights seem to be typically reserved for Goku. It's not to say that the animation and fight quality couldn't be surprisingly lacklustre because it might. However, I find the odds of that occurring are slim.

[Kanious]

Ribrianne appearing for more then 4 minutes
Goku's kid appearing on screen [he should be eliminated. To me he doesn't even deserve to be in the ToP]
Piccolo getting f*cked up for saving Goku's kid
Goku transforming without a good OST on the background ["birth of god" is ok to me, that sounds epic, but i would like to hear a new epic OST]

[Totamo]

I don’t see anything wrong with wanted better storytelling. What I’m really asking is that they take into consideration all the previous story and lore and hopefully make it make sense with this latest addition. There’s nothing wrong with wanting a well thought out story.

Thats not what I implied and you know thats not what I implied. But when you have a list that DAMN long about a series 100 episodes in, that tells me that super has not given you these things and you don't expect it to otherwise you would simply say "I want it to make sense." Which everyone knows it won't and that Beerus one is not happening either because we. don't. know. how. strong. beerus. is.

So why are you going to watch something you know you won't like or will try to like. What do you expect me to say besides spend your time elsewhere.

Not to mention half the crap you listed already happened in Z and you probably would defend or can you explain with a straight face how androids 16, 17 and 18 are stronger than Freeza when Gero never even knew what namek was.

Hmm super confused by this response in a thread asking what I don’t want I see and I’m actually able to list these things... without complaining about them?? The things listed could be considered legitimately poor story telling so I don’t see why I can’t not want to see them. And somehow I should want good things from Super??

That’s such a shame. But you do encourage everyone to drop the show who doesn’t like it and it certainly does seem to be working because Supers ratings are getting WORSE not better so keep up your crusade to get people to stop watching the show so the ratings can continue to drop by hundreds of thousands of viewers. It’s working actually working very effectively at making people not watch the show and the ratings drop.

So to answer your android question countless times. 17&18 were sealed away because they were too powerful and non compliant. They were “accidentally” that strong, not designed that way. Out of universe Toriyama needed to make up a legitimate reason for there to be a stronger entity out there than Frieza that no one ever heard of, thus they were specifically created to get around that plot hole. Whether you like the fact that they are that strong or not is irrelevant, the fact that the author took the time to attempt to fill the plot hole is the point.
Having Jiren being dramatically stronger than SSBxKKx20 Goku is much more bizarre because the reason for his strength isn’t some freak accident granting him “infinite energy” at least that we know of at this point. So far it’s just been presented that he “just is” this strong without a real reason why. If the androids had been presented in the same way of just showing up and being much stronger than SSJ Goku just because it would have been equally BS. But Toriyama at that time recognizes this as a storyteller and used a plot device “limitless energy” as a means to justify the BS power. This far we haven’t even gotten an attempt at justification for Jirens strength in-universe.

And that is the key difference in writing then vs now and why I would like to NOT see certain things and would LIKE to see things at least attempted to be explained. I may not like SSGs lore at all but at least it has both lore and justification for its strength. BS though it may be I appreciate that for at least the attempt at spinning a narrative.

Well of course i encourage people to drop shows they don't like. I did the same thing with people and Kai when it was airing in the states and I flat out tell people not to watch Z or Ball when they tell me their tastes and it doesn't match it. there are thousands of stories out there for them to enjoy.

And we both know super will air as long as it makes money which it does so why not? Super isn't changing in writing and it has given no indication. Like i said, we know the show we are watching and since we are all still watching are expectations should be as such. People saying they don't want it to be episode 66 levels of stupidity or mass eliminations are right to complain about that because super has not shown that before or again.

My issue with yours is, well, you know thats what is going to happen or presenting as such. You don't seem to be afraid of your list, you expect it. Basically, you know you arent going to like it


oh and that was my point. jiren being strong because he was born that way is the same as saying the androids are because they were designed that way, it just is. That line doesn't explain 16 who was defunct nor does it explain 19 or 20 who were just as strong.

[Avok]

More like you get an overused trope and pointlessly getting rid of characters that could potentially shine.

This isn't a 1 on 1 Tournament and everyone needs something to do. Otherwise they would all be attacking Jiren come next ep.

A lot of the stuff in DBS has been pointless and tropey, really important stuff at that, so if it atleast it looks cool I'm okay with it.

Half of the characters in the tournament are literal fodder and tons of them have been eliminated without doing something worthwile or that people will remember.
They reduce the fighter count they can focus on those people and make them shine, showing that Jiren is very OP in a visually appealing at the same time. It's a win win situation.

[TheMikado]

Well of course i encourage people to drop shows they don't like. I did the same thing with people and Kai when it was airing in the states and I flat out tell people not to watch Z or Ball when they tell me their tastes and it doesn't match it. there are thousands of stories out there for them to enjoy.

And we both know super will air as long as it makes money which it does so why not? Super isn't changing in writing and it has given no indication. Like i said, we know the show we are watching and since we are all still watching are expectations should be as such. People saying they don't want it to be episode 66 levels of stupidity or mass eliminations are right to complain about that because super has not shown that before or again.

My issue with yours is, well, you know thats what is going to happen or presenting as such. You don't seem to be afraid of your list, you expect it. Basically, you know you arent going to like it


oh and that was my point. jiren being strong because he was born that way is the same as saying the androids are because they were designed that way, it just is. That line doesn't explain 16 who was defunct nor does it explain 19 or 20 who were just as strong.

I am going to go ahead and skip the whether Super will continue or not. It's on a downward trend in viewership and continues to get lower. People are taking your advice. So keep up the good work. Your message is reaching the masses. The spike this special may generate does not change the trend or trajectory.

I do expect the things listed by not all. But I would like to be pleasantly surprised. The thread is specifically about what I don't want to see and I've listed them. There is no qualifier on what I expect. That's your issue and soley yours. Thankfully that's not what this thread is about. I would like Super to be well-written and adhere to the lore established.

While we are on it I will gladly show you why the androids are different.

1) They are not the main antagonists of that larger arc. Thus far Jiren has been shown to be. This may change and hopefully it does.
2) They did explain the androids and their power. Android 16 was a creation built in response to Dr. Gero's death. He states he made him powerful to not lose in battle.
3) We covered the 17 & 18
4) In no way shape or form is it EVER stated or shown that 19 & 20 were explicitly more powerful than Frieza. This is a fan assumption and nothing has ever been said to that extent. Further these androids possessed energy absorption. So once again we have a method of acquiring strength. We do not even know if android 19 & 20 were originally built that strong or if they had acquired energy through various absorption. Either way the reason for their strength and for the ability to expand their strength was built into the characters themselves.
5) We know nothing about Jiren. Maybe he will be explained in these episodes and this discussion will be moot. Maybe not. We have to wait and see. The point is I want to know why Jiren is intimidating and important other than just being really strong and stronger than Goku, because right now his only function is to literally act as wall and seems to have all the personality and character of one. I would like better. Thank you.

[Zagacious]

90% of that fight was really nothing special in terms of animation or fight choreography.

It and the original's other fights are still light years ahead of what we got in this tournament so far. But of course the only way to justify its lack of quality fights is to bring the original down.

A Goku/Ribrianne fight that lasts until the mid-episode commercial.

I forgot that thing is still in the tournament. Her and the 2 Saiyan girls are easily the worst things introduced into the franchise so far.

The fights in DBS are objectively a lot shorter, and as a result there is less action in DBS overall. It only takes a few minute comparison to make this obvious so I find it funny people trying to defend these fights saying DBZ did it worse is just a joke. The fights in DBS are barely as long as the fights against minor characters in DBZ like Pui Pui.

As far as the special, I'm honestly expecting to get let down but I'll keep an open mind. Every other time they hyped stuff up it's ultimately meant nothing for the most part. Like when they hyped Ribrianne up for 3 or 4 NEP in a row and then she didn't even get a real fight. Whoever is in charge of the NEPs is doing a terrible job, to the point people actually imply you are stupid for even paying attention to the NEP at all on the forums.