What Do You NOT Want To See in Episodes 109-110?

[TheMikado]

Goku doing something stupid that he know shouldn’t work like throwing a spirit blob at a good person

Yeah, because throwing it at pure evil people works all the time, like with Freeza who outright tanked it and Kid Buu who guess what, deflected it Not to mention this "pure hearted people can deflect it" thingy is horribly vague and you could argue that an innocent 5-year-old child cannot be compared to an adult like Jiren, whom we know very little about.

Also, I can't believe that THIS of all things bothers you, and stuff like Android 19 coming back from freaking Hell with a physical body doesn't

But we saw this coming a mile away, Goku just went through this with Buu maybe a year or two ago. He should know a far far less powerful spirit Bomb on a far far stronger opponent who is as strong as a GoD and possible has a pure heart should have to reasons he should be able to deflect this super weak spirit Bomb.
We’ve known since we saw that this was a bad idea and it basically played out exactly how we said it was the moment we heard about it. Why is Goku so dumb he should know better than anyone it wouldn’t work, shoot even Vegeta thought it was bad idea!

Then he gets hit with his own Spirit Bomb to top it off which I would have expected him to at least deflect it away..

And android 19?

[Saturnine]

But we saw this coming a mile away, Goku just went through this with Buu maybe a year or two ago. He should know a far far less powerful spirit Bomb on a far far stronger opponent who is as strong as a GoD and possible has a pure heart should have to reasons he should be able to deflect this super weak spirit Bomb.

Yeah well, the thing is we've never really been given an adequate explanation of how the Spirit Bomb works, or what decides whether it's strong or weak. It definitely wasn't that weak, from what we saw. If it were, Goku himself shouldn't have been threatened by it, going by your logic.

We’ve known since we saw that this was a bad idea and it basically played out exactly how we said it was the moment we heard about it. Why is Goku so dumb he should know better than anyone it wouldn’t work, shoot even Vegeta thought it was bad idea!

Not sure if Vegeta thought it was a bad idea or it's just his pride that kept him from helping Goku. Anyway, the only time the Spirit Bomb actually ended a battle in the manga was against Kid Buu. It was never played up to be a super-reliable technique. Also, no one watching the show expected it to work. Still, Goku probably didn't expect it being deflected at him like that, and he definitely thought it was worth a shot, since everything else he tried, didn't work. That's very much like Goku - he always tries whatever he can before surrendering. He called it his trump card, so it stands to reason he thought it was the best he could do.

As for it being weak - even though you think it should be compared to the one used against Kid Buu - it clearly wasn't, even the GoDs acknowledged that it was pretty serious. The only explanation could be that all the U7 warriors could donate more genki than the entire population of Earth. I really wouldn't be surprised, considering that several of these 10 guys are already SSj God level, which as it is is unbelievably strong.

Then he gets hit with his own Spirit Bomb to top it off which I would have expected him to at least deflect it away..

Look, just because someone is pure hearted, doesn't mean they'll automatically always be able to deflect a Spirit Bomb. They can still fail. Also, Goku totally did deflect it at first, the only problem is that Jiren was pushing even harder than he was. Nothing more to that, really.

And android 19?

Yeah, I was talking about that fight from the Super 17 arc in GT. You like GT, so I assumed you didn't mind that scene To me it's personally way worse in terms of respect to rules of the universe than anything that happened this episode.

[TheMikado]

But we saw this coming a mile away, Goku just went through this with Buu maybe a year or two ago. He should know a far far less powerful spirit Bomb on a far far stronger opponent who is as strong as a GoD and possible has a pure heart should have to reasons he should be able to deflect this super weak spirit Bomb.

Yeah well, the thing is we've never really been given an adequate explanation of how the Spirit Bomb works, or what decides whether it's strong or weak. It definitely wasn't that weak, from what we saw. If it were, Goku himself shouldn't have been threatened by it, going by your logic.

We’ve known since we saw that this was a bad idea and it basically played out exactly how we said it was the moment we heard about it. Why is Goku so dumb he should know better than anyone it wouldn’t work, shoot even Vegeta thought it was bad idea!

Not sure if Vegeta thought it was a bad idea or it's just his pride that kept him from helping Goku. Anyway, the only time the Spirit Bomb actually ended a battle in the manga was against Kid Buu. It was never played up to be a super-reliable technique. Also, no one watching the show expected it to work. Still, Goku probably didn't expect it being deflected at him like that, and he definitely thought it was worth a shot, since everything else he tried, didn't work. That's very much like Goku - he always tries whatever he can before surrendering. He called it his trump card, so it stands to reason he thought it was the best he could do.

As for it being weak - even though you think it should be compared to the one used against Kid Buu - it clearly wasn't, even the GoDs acknowledged that it was pretty serious. The only explanation could be that all the U7 warriors could donate more genki than the entire population of Earth. I really wouldn't be surprised, considering that several of these 10 guys are already SSj God level, which as it is is unbelievably strong.

Then he gets hit with his own Spirit Bomb to top it off which I would have expected him to at least deflect it away..

Look, just because someone is pure hearted, doesn't mean they'll automatically always be able to deflect a Spirit Bomb. They can still fail. Also, Goku totally did deflect it at first, the only problem is that Jiren was pushing even harder than he was. Nothing more to that, really.

And android 19?

Yeah, I was talking about that fight from the Super 17 arc in GT. You like GT, so I assumed you didn't mind that scene To me it's personally way worse in terms of respect to rules of the universe than anything that happened this episode.

Why would Vegeta be too prideful to save his family and new born child???? That's absurd. Especially given how much he sacrificed the last time Goku needed time to make a spirit bomb and go SSJ3.

It definitely doesn't make sense to use it under these circumstances. The way we were described of the spirit bomb multiple times is that it directly related to the power it gathers.

"Remember that the Spirit Bomb is a martial arts discipline that allows you to borrow energy from grass and trees, from people and animals, from inanimate objects and the atmosphere... And then to concentrate them and release them. If you can draw so much destructive power from a ball made on this small planet... ...Imagine what you can do with a Spirit Bomb formed on Earth! If you can also learn to tap into the astounding powers of the Sun... Well. Just be careful. Or you may destroy the very planet you're trying to protect!"
— King Kai,

It's also the reason it failed on Namek, there were not enough beings to gather enough energy to even defeat frieza. but we have a total of 10 people managing to gather enough energy to force someone who is greater than SSBxKKx20 and not even at their full level or power to be concerned enough to throw it back. The entire thing is nonsensical given the in universe usage of it thus far. Literally the very first thing everyone said when they first heard about it in the tournament is "Where is Goku going to get this energy" The show didn't even acknowledge that it had a limited number of people and explain that their energy because of their high levels was sufficient. Nothing. They just played it straight as if it was supposed to work.

As for Android 17 coming back from Hell, sure its dumb. But its consistent with the ANIME where the bad guys keep their bodies in Hell. Super isn't even consistent with itself let alone previous materials. I don't fault GT for being consistent with the anime because I'm not a manga purist. I have no idea how they opened a portal to hell just like I have no idea why the spirit bomb created a "black hole". So don't think I'm being harsher Super I wouldn't complain about. I'm not asking questions about the "black hole" just like I don't ask questions about them being able to make a portal from hell. They are both feats I chalk up to fictional animation ability. The problem is when things that are explicitly explained in universe don't make logical sense to either us the audience nor should they make sense to the character themselves. There is no reason why the audience should be saying, "Why is Goku using the spirit bomb?" without actually understanding his reasoning. A good example is Goku giving Cell a senzu bean. It was explained to the audience that Goku legitimately thought Gohan was going to win anyway. It was dumb but we were given an explicit reason. That's just good storytelling and writing. Simple as that.

[Arugela]

I think with the spirit bomb they were focusing on aggressive as what would harm it. So, if you are calm it won't harm you but if you are aggressive inside it will. They may be updating the spirit bomb to be more specific.

[Saturnine]

If you really wanna nitpick, Goku's Spirit Bomb against Kid Buu should not have any business working either. It's not about pure strength. Let's say there are 7 billion Earthlings, and all of them donated their genki to Goku. If a regular Earthling's powerlevel is 5, then say they can donate 4 (otherwise they'd start losing consciousness and shit), which gives the Spirit Bomb a power of 28 billion. To be fair, by that point guys like Ultimate Gohan should by themselves have a power tens of times higher than that, and yet it's the Earthlings' input that really made the difference. That means genki is not directly proportional to someone's overall ki. Hell, Goku was able to make a huge Genki Dama out of genki from just plants and animals on Namek. So yeah, going by this, this Genki Dama shouldn't have enough power to faze Jiren. But Genki Dama always was just as strong as the plot demanded - that leads me to believe that either the current power of the user also factors into the power of the attack, or beings on godly levels of power simply have more genki to donate.

As for Android 17 coming back from Hell, sure its dumb. But its consistent with the ANIME where the bad guys keep their bodies in Hell.

I was actually talking about Android 19, not 17. This goes way beyond even what Toei's writers did in Z filler. Sure, evil guys did keep their bodies after death - which in itself is probably the most outrageous Toeism ever committed - but Android 19 was nothing but a machine. It had no soul, it couldn't even go to hell, much less come back from it! And then there was the thing with the halos - in Z every deceased person who kept their body got one, in GT the writers thought you could only have a halo when you were in Heaven, as seen by Piccolo's halo disappearing as he was being sent to Hell instead. Kinda inexcusable if you ask me.

[TheMikado]

If you really wanna nitpick, Goku's Spirit Bomb against Kid Buu should not have any business working either. It's not about pure strength. Let's say there are 7 billion Earthlings, and all of them donated their genki to Goku. If a regular Earthling's powerlevel is 5, then say they can donate 4 (otherwise they'd start losing consciousness and shit), which gives the Spirit Bomb a power of 28 billion. To be fair, by that point guys like Ultimate Gohan should by themselves have a power tens of times higher than that, and yet it's the Earthlings' input that really made the difference. That means genki is not directly proportional to someone's overall ki. Hell, Goku was able to make a huge Genki Dama out of genki from just plants and animals on Namek. So yeah, going by this, this Genki Dama shouldn't have enough power to faze Jiren. But Genki Dama always was just as strong as the plot demanded - that leads me to believe that either the current power of the user also factors into the power of the attack, or beings on godly levels of power simply have more genki to donate.

As for Android 17 coming back from Hell, sure its dumb. But its consistent with the ANIME where the bad guys keep their bodies in Hell.

I was actually talking about Android 19, not 17. This goes way beyond even what Toei's writers did in Z filler. Sure, evil guys did keep their bodies after death - which in itself is probably the most outrageous Toeism ever committed - but Android 19 was nothing but a machine. It had no soul, it couldn't even go to hell, much less come back from it! And then there was the thing with the halos - in Z every deceased person who kept their body got one, in GT the writers thought you could only have a halo when you were in Heaven, as seen by Piccolo's halo disappearing as he was being sent to Hell instead. Kinda inexcusable if you ask me.

I don't want to nitpick anything, the point I making is we have multiple comparisons on the size and expectations of the technique. Goku demonstrated it on King Kais, he then demonstrated it on Earth, further he demonstrated it on Namek, and again in the Buu arc and even GT. We know its mechanics and properties and we have expectations. Below is a listing of what we know when we learned it:

The Spirit Bomb collections small amounts of energy from all sources even other celestial bodies if possible - King kai explaining the Spirit Bomb
The Spirit Bomb requires a pure heart to use - King Kai & confirmed by Goku
The Spirit Bomb can be deflected or even wielded by one who is also pure of heart - Confirmed by Goku with Krillin and Gohan.
The Spirit Bomb can fail against strong enemies if not enough energy is collected or available - Goku Namek vs Frieza
The Spirit Bomb can be pushed back before detonation if an enemy is strong enough. - Confirmed vs Goku vs Buu
The Spirit Bomb can drain the life force and weaken and almost kill the energy givers - Confirmed vs Goku vs Buu
The Spirit Bomb upon detonation can hurt everyone regardless of alignment - Confirmed every time it was used.
The Spirit Bomb can be used on other celestial bodies and worlds - Confirmed in GT with universal spirit bomb and by King kai's original introduction.

The point is the spirit bomb has a long history and lore. I'm not sitting here calculating or added up power levels. What I am saying is that, based on what we have seen Goku would have had to gather enough energy from just 10 people to create a Spirit Bomb that would need to be stronger than SSBxKKx20 to be a threat to Jiren who may also have been good enough at heart to deflect it in the first place. Further the after affects of Goku getting hit by and not deflecting his own spirit bomb and the rest of the team not being completely drained of their energy by giving it to Goku for the bomb also makes little sense. The basic mechanics of how it should work that we have seen are completely ignored in favor of making it "cool".

It took me a while to realize what you were talking about with 19. This guy makes a cameo in Hell with a halo and this is completely inexcusable... I'm not even sure of he was on screen for 10 seconds total yet this would be grounds for GT to be inexcusable. You can be mad about the halo thing if you want, doesn't bother me much either way as its at least consistent within GT. Sure its dumb but that's the direction they went with. So sure then Super and GT can go right into the non canon trash bin together. I'm more than fine with that. We aren't talking about a 5 second cameo here, we are taking about the climax of a tournament and an action than leads to Goku obtaining a new form when both in and out of universe we know that direction should have never been taken in the first place and Goku didn't even have a good reason to make that decision with the mechanics that we know of how the technique works. So no only did the character in universe do something we all know he shouldnt have for no reason the character states, but the technique then behaves in a way contrary to what we were explicitly told it should.