Goku and the Genki Dama

[TheMikado]

Did you not watch the Buu saga at all???

The energy for the spirit Bomb is
LIFE ENERGY.

Draining too much of it makes you tired and collapse draining too much CAN KILL YOU. It’s NOT ki.

Ki and 'life energy' are the exact same thing.

It's not, otherwise Goku doing the Demon containment wave as a SSBxKKx10 would let him do it an unlimited times as compared to base, as compared to Roshi doing it multiple times on various stronger opponents as this technique specifically drains your life force and can kill you. The Spirit bomb is also a technique that can kill those it drains power from. It's life force based.

SSJ on the other hand does not kill the user. If it consumes too much energy the user just ceases to be able to use the form while being exhausted. The don't die from its over usage, yet it has a lot more kill than the containment wave.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

The fact that he had all of like 10 people to possibly contribute should have made it impossible. Even Vegeta knew the idea was stupid

Jiren gave him time but where the heck did he get the energy? Why isnt U7 tired after giving energy? Especially if they potentially had to give extra?

#17 and 18 won't get tired the other 3 out of ring we're not sure how much Gohan, Piccolo or Freeza gave and Vegeta didn't give anyway. I'd say the androids gave the most energy.

[dbgtFO]

Ki and 'life energy' are the exact same thing.

It's not, otherwise Goku doing the Demon containment wave as a SSBxKKx10 would let him do it an unlimited times as compared to base, as compared to Roshi doing it multiple times on various stronger opponents as this technique specifically drains your life force and can kill you. The Spirit bomb is also a technique that can kill those it drains power from. It's life force based.

SSJ on the other hand does not kill the user. If it consumes too much energy the user just ceases to be able to use the form while being exhausted. The don't die from its over usage, yet it has a lot more kill than the containment wave.

Life energy is just a term in the funi dub, that they decided to use for whatever reason. It's ki in the original and Spirit Bomb is genki, a component in one's ki.

[Luso Saiyan]

It's not, otherwise Goku doing the Demon containment wave as a SSBxKKx10 would let him do it an unlimited times as compared to base, as compared to Roshi doing it multiple times on various stronger opponents as this technique specifically drains your life force and can kill you. The Spirit bomb is also a technique that can kill those it drains power from. It's life force based.

Honestly, I could care less about that SSBxKKx10+ABC-101 crap...

Ki = Chi = Qi = life energy = life force. It's all the same. It's not a matter of opinion, it is what it is.

[TheMikado]

It's not, otherwise Goku doing the Demon containment wave as a SSBxKKx10 would let him do it an unlimited times as compared to base, as compared to Roshi doing it multiple times on various stronger opponents as this technique specifically drains your life force and can kill you. The Spirit bomb is also a technique that can kill those it drains power from. It's life force based.

Honestly, I could care less about that SSBxKKx10+ABC-101 crap...

Ki = Chi = Qi = life energy = life force. It's all the same. It's not a matter of opinion, it is what it is.

Fine it’s the same so the ten people should be too exhausted to move if they managed to make a spirit bomb powerful enough to threaten Jiren who SSBxKkx20 did nothing to. That’s the whole point.

[TheOne]

No, it was not. That rumor needs to die. Good people can push it back and that is all. It was never said iz does not hurt you if you are hit by it.

You 100% sure? I could have sworn Goku said that to Gohan. Hmm. I'll take your word for it. Cba to take out my manga volumes

Maybe you watched a wrong dub? I have to admit myself I have no remembrance on that mention whatsoever but is not like I know every single line by heart lol

He said it to Gohan in the saying saga I believe. It was never a thing since then

[GodKaio-Ken]

It's not, otherwise Goku doing the Demon containment wave as a SSBxKKx10 would let him do it an unlimited times as compared to base, as compared to Roshi doing it multiple times on various stronger opponents as this technique specifically drains your life force and can kill you. The Spirit bomb is also a technique that can kill those it drains power from. It's life force based.

Honestly, I could care less about that SSBxKKx10+ABC-101 crap...

Ki = Chi = Qi = life energy = life force. It's all the same. It's not a matter of opinion, it is what it is.

*sigh*

What something is in real life has nothing to do with what it is or is portrayed as in an anime.

[Luso Saiyan]

What something is in real life has nothing to do with what it is

It has everything to do with what it is, since it's what's based on.

[Drellz26]

I feel like the Androids and Frieza contributions are a good enough explanation to how the attack was so big and powerful. You have unlimited ki and a crazy amount from Frieza, works for me.

As to why no one got tired...No one has started fighting yet so how do we know they haven't already?

And to everyone saying Goku could've just pushed it back as if Jiren wasn't forcing it it back towards him...come on man, y'all not even trying to give the show any props.

[Lord Beerus]

The fact that he had all of like 10 people to possibly contribute should have made it impossible. Even Vegeta knew the idea was stupid

Jiren gave him time but where the heck did he get the energy? Why isnt U7 tired after giving energy? Especially if they potentially had to give extra?

#17 and 18 won't get tired the other 3 out of ring we're not sure how much Gohan, Piccolo or Freeza gave and Vegeta didn't give anyway. I'd say the androids gave the most energy.

I always figured that because everyone in the main cast, Gohan, Freeza and Android 17 in particular, have gotten much stronger since the end of the Majin Boo arc and can give energy to Goku's Genki Dama that is much more potent. I mean, I'm certain that if just Gohan, Freeza and Android 17 pooled their power together, they could create an energy sphere of great devastation given they are at least as strong as SSJB Goku. Also given that Android 17 and 18 have a limitless energy supply, they can realistically give as much energy as they please.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

The fact that he had all of like 10 people to possibly contribute should have made it impossible. Even Vegeta knew the idea was stupid

Jiren gave him time but where the heck did he get the energy? Why isnt U7 tired after giving energy? Especially if they potentially had to give extra?

#17 and 18 won't get tired the other 3 out of ring we're not sure how much Gohan, Piccolo or Freeza gave and Vegeta didn't give anyway. I'd say the androids gave the most energy.

I always figured that because everyone in the main cast, Gohan, Freeza and Android 17 in particular, have gotten much stronger since the end of the Majin Boo arc and can given energy to Goku's Genki Dama that is much more potent. I mean, I'm certain that if just Gohan, Freeza and Android 17 pooled their power together, they could create an energy sphere of great devastation given they are at least as strong as SSJB Goku. Also given that Android 17 and 18 have a limitless energy supply, so they can realistically give as much energy as they please.

That's also another way of looking at it, their energy is worth more, that does logically make sense too.

[TheMikado]

I don’t think anyone is saying it can’t be explained it’s that we’re resorting to head canon because the current arc is ignoring that we had guys a lot of these same guys contribute energy less than a year or two ago and it was no where near this potent even relative to the power levels at the time. Jiren is stronger than SSBx20 so the spirit bomb would need to be at least that powerful. It also begs the question why 17 & 18 didn’t contribute more again Buu? All we want is an acknowledgement that the previous instances happened and they have a reasonable reason why this time is different without straight up acting as if we have the memories of a goldfish. The multiple times the spirit bomb has been used we have seen it’s effectiveness vary by the amount of energy it collected. Why is this time different will a billion less people and yet seemingly stronger?

[Konig]

I don’t think anyone is saying it can’t be explained it’s that we’re resorting to head canon because the current arc is ignoring that we had guys a lot of these same guys contribute energy less than a year or two ago and it was no where near this potent even relative to the power levels at the time. Jiren is stronger than SSBx20 so the spirit bomb would need to be at least that powerful. It also begs the question why 17 & 18 didn’t contribute more again Buu? All we want is an acknowledgement that the previous instances happened and they have a reasonable reason why this time is different without straight up acting as if we have the memories of a goldfish. The multiple times the spirit bomb has been used we have seen it’s effectiveness vary by the amount of energy it collected. Why is this time different will a billion less people and yet seemingly stronger?

The Buu arc takes place in 774, whereas the Tournament of Power takes place in 780, so it's a six year gap there. During that gap, the characters have grown immensely stronger. I know power level are now useless in Dragon Ball, but if we take into consideration that the Genki Dama uses ki as its main source (after all, ki IRL roughly translates to one's vital force) and that the average human has a BP of 5 (as evidenced by the farmer during Raditz arc) or, being generous, even 10, this would result in a total "World ki" of 35 or 70 billion, using real life Earth's population as a parameter. And, (again), while power levels are a complete mess since Frieza's arc, I think it's safe to say that that quantity of ki would (actually, way less, since each person only sends part of his/her ki) represent a huge amount during Buu's arc, but not during the Tournament of Power. In fact, I believe U7 team alone can easily create more that amount of ki.

That's obviously especulation from me, but I don't think the idea of a powerful Genki Dama created with the help of 10 people is that far-fetched of an idea.

[TheMikado]

I don’t think anyone is saying it can’t be explained it’s that we’re resorting to head canon because the current arc is ignoring that we had guys a lot of these same guys contribute energy less than a year or two ago and it was no where near this potent even relative to the power levels at the time. Jiren is stronger than SSBx20 so the spirit bomb would need to be at least that powerful. It also begs the question why 17 & 18 didn’t contribute more again Buu? All we want is an acknowledgement that the previous instances happened and they have a reasonable reason why this time is different without straight up acting as if we have the memories of a goldfish. The multiple times the spirit bomb has been used we have seen it’s effectiveness vary by the amount of energy it collected. Why is this time different will a billion less people and yet seemingly stronger?

The Buu arc takes place in 774, whereas the Tournament of Power takes place in 780, so it's a six year gap there. During that gap, the characters have grown immensely stronger. I know power level are now useless in Dragon Ball, but if we take into consideration that the Genki Dama uses ki as its main source (after all, ki IRL roughly translates to one's vital force) and that the average human has a BP of 5 (as evidenced by the farmer during Raditz arc) or, being generous, even 10, this would result in a total "World ki" of 35 or 70 billion, using real life Earth's population as a parameter. And, (again), while power levels are a complete mess since Frieza's arc, I think it's safe to say that that quantity of ki would (actually, way less, since each person only sends part of his/her ki) represent a huge amount during Buu's arc, but not during the Tournament of Power. In fact, I believe U7 team alone can easily create more that amount of ki.

That's obviously especulation from me, but I don't think the idea of a powerful Genki Dama created with the help of 10 people is that far-fetched of an idea.

I didn’t realize it’s been 6 years already. In either case people like Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, the androids, etc. all contributed to that. In fact there’s only one person on that team who wouldn’t have contributed to it and that’s Frieza and Vegeta didn’t even want to help. We keep using these mathematical estimates but keep conveniently leaving out the same group of people who were part of the Buu Spirit Bomb.

It’s not even a big deal but it’s the issue is that it’s not consistent and doesn’t really follow its own in universe rules and seems to ignore that even mathematically it doesn’t make much sense. Either the group gave small amounts of ki which probably shouldn’t be stronger than SSBx20 Goku or they have a ton of their ki and should be pretty drained. Honestly I’d even take some BS like the dimension they are in is full of ambient energy or God Ki since it’s a God realm which allows Goku to draw a ton of energy for the surrounding atmosphere. Just something hat shows some thought went into it.

As a matter of fact they absolutely should have Goku make a Genki Dama made of God Ki rather than mortal ki.

[Tombstone1988]

Let's discuss this using one of my favorite subjects: Math. The goal is to try and show how a Spirit Bomb could have been a more powerful choice than Goku's next-best option, which is SSB with a x20 Kaioken multiplier on top. To do this, a power equal to SSB will be treated as a value of 1. The goal is to surpass a value of 20 (SSB with Kaioken on top) in order to justify the scene.

I'm even going to make a few stipulations, just to prove a point:
1.) Gohan and Android 17 will be treated as having power levels equal to SSB Goku, therefore meaning they have a value = to 1.
2.) Characters will be able to contribute up to 99.9% of their energy (even though that's completely absurd), keeping just enough to not die.
3.) I'll even increase the value of the weaker character's power; details further in

So, let's start with who contributed. We have Gohan, Android 17, Freeza, Android 18, Piccolo, Krillin, Tien and Roshi. As stated in stipulation 1, Gohan and Android 17 each have a value equal to SSB Goku, so they contribute about 1 point each. Android 18, for math's sake, we'll say has a value of 0.1, or 1/10 of SSB Goku. Finally, to stretch things even more, let's say that Freeza, when combined with Piccolo, Krillin, Tien and Roshi, are able to equal a value of 2. Add that all up, and we get a combined value of... 4.1? That's... not even 25% of Goku's max power.

But let's take this a step further. 17 and 18 are androids. They have limitless energy. Perhaps they can contribute a far greater amount of energy than the others. So, let's say they offered 10 times as much energy as all of the others. That increases 17's value to 10 and 18's value to 1. Our new score is now... 13. That's still nowhere near as powerful as even Goku at his max.

Looking at this, you can clearly deduce that 17 and 18 would have had to contribute at least 20 times as much energy as each of the other fighters (using my stipulations) in order to create a Spirit Bomb stronger than Goku at his max power. That's a bit of a stretch, considering the sparse details actually presented in the bomb's creation. Even then, this would have left everyone exhausted and completely unable to fight, which wasn't the case. As TheMikado states, even some throwaway line such as there being lingering Genki in the World of Void that Goku harnessed would have helped establish credibility.

Also, please stop talking about the Buu Saga. Gohan alone was stronger than Kid Buu, and billions of individuals, including him, contributed to that Spirit Bomb. Not one member of Universe 7 is stronger than Jiren and only 8 individuals contributed. Those aren't even close to comparable scenarios.

[MaskedRider]

-snip-

Curious, why wouldn't Freeza be able to contribute energy on the same level as Gohan and 17? I know we haven't seen him go at it against SSB in that form but its seems weird considering he has his own form that is either more or less on equal ground to it and if we're going to go with that rule that they would be equal because they sparred against SSB then shouldn't Krillin be able to equal 1 since he beam struggled against a SSB kamehameha? Granted 18 interfered but 17 didn't do much either besides shield against a SSB kamehameha and block ATATATA punches.

[Tombstone1988]

Curious, why wouldn't Freeza be able to contribute energy on the same level as Gohan and 17? I know we haven't seen him go at it against SSB in that form but its seems weird considering he has his own form that is either more or less on equal ground to it and if we're going to go with that rule that they would be equal because they sparred against SSB then shouldn't Krillin be able to equal 1 since he beam struggled against a SSB kamehameha? Granted 18 interfered but 17 didn't do much either besides shield against a SSB kamehameha and block ATATATA punches.

Apologies if I didn't make it very clear. I was actually implying Freeza was contributing MORE energy than Gohan and 17, not less. Like, if Gohan and 17 are about a 1.0 each, Freeza is like a 1.7 or 1.8. The other fighters (Piccolo, Tien, Krillin and Roshi) I lumped in to increase his value up to a nice round 2, just for math's sake. I can't imagine those 4 together would add more than a value of 0.2 to 0.3 (using my very skewed scale) when combined. Again, I stretched all of the values, such as bringing Gohan and 17 up to SSB level, not because I think that's the level they're at but more to make the math simpler and easier to understand.

Also, in case anyone asks, I imagine the Spirit Bomb does increase the potency of the energy it uses, making it a very powerful attack. However, Jiren was also stronger than Goku, so when doing the maths I sort of offset those 2 values against each other, which is why I was calculating for a value equal to Goku's SSB with Kaioken x20.