Has Vegeta been a good character as of recently? I think not.

[HeroR]

I don't read that much shounen manga anymore, but I guess (I could be wrong) you're talking about Sasuke from Naruto who was gone for what I think were many volumes of the manga at a time? Again I don't know because I dropped off of Naruto pretty early on and only vaguely know what happens after the chuunin exams.

If Super was a weekly manga, OR if it ever escapes this molasses-like pace that the ToP has thrust it into, I could see that then. Just not at the crawling pace Super's currently moving at.

I was talking about shounen in general like Pokemon or even MHA.

And the tourument isn’t all that slow. It’s slow by Super’s standards.

Pokemon I dropped off at the beginning of Johto, so yeah I do remember how Gary would only show up every once in a blue moon and it was an event when he did.

Even though I really like the character designer for MHA (Umakoshi's the same guy who designed characters for HeartCatch Precure) MHA's premise didn't grab me and I have no real interest in picking it up.

I agree, it is just slow by Super's standards. When I was skimming through another thread the other day someone was talking about how many weeks the Freeza and Buu arcs took (one was 50 eps and the other as 70? Something like that). I just got used to and enjoyed having arcs that began and wrapped up in 16 to 18 weeks.

Freeza was around 60. Buu was over 90.

[Chuquita]

90 episodes long.....yikes.

See I never watched Z weekly like that; I watched the Buu arc on weekday Toonami so even though it was 90 episodes, it was only 18 weeks for me, not almost 2 years.

The ToP wouldn't feel so long either if it were 5 days a week instead of once a week.

[HeroR]

90 episodes long.....yikes.

See I never watched Z weekly like that; I watched the Buu arc on weekday Toonami so even though it was 90 episodes, it was only 18 weeks for me, not almost 2 years.

The ToP wouldn't feel so long either if it were 5 days a week instead of once a week.

The Buu Saga was divided into ‘seasons’ on Toonami. Like there was almost a year break after Vegeta sacrificed himself and Kid Buu was months after he appeared.

[Chuquita]

90 episodes long.....yikes.

See I never watched Z weekly like that; I watched the Buu arc on weekday Toonami so even though it was 90 episodes, it was only 18 weeks for me, not almost 2 years.

The ToP wouldn't feel so long either if it were 5 days a week instead of once a week.

The Buu Saga was divided into ‘seasons’ on Toonami. Like there was almost a year break after Vegeta sacrificed himself and Kid Buu was months after he appeared.

I don't remember. It's been too long. I know there was a break at some point, I couldn't have told you where without Google anymore.

My point of "five new episodes a week instead of one a week makes long arcs feel shorter" stands though. That's what I'm trying to say.

[TBMx]

Any replacement of Vegeta as an archrival should be anime only. Vegeta's working very well in the manga.

But the character doesn't need replacing, he just needs a few simple fixes.

1) Narrow the silly gulf in power between him and Goku.
2) Have him be arrogant, but not delusional. If he only has SSB, don't have him talk as if he can beat Goku SSBKKx20 or Jiren. Have his claims backed up by some evidence. The audience has to say, "Okay, I understand how he could believe that".
3) Give him more shine, allowing Goku to consider him a true rival.
4) New, interesting techniques.
5) Actually use strategy and great skill in battle. He should be matured past the energy spam and just powering through everything given how he's middle aged.
6) Don't have him frustrated so much all the time. Have him be more like when he took control of Pui Pui, cool confident and quiet, and let his fists do the talking. So when he is frustrated, it's more meaningful.
7) Have him mature past his immature fear of showing romantic affection to Bulma.
Stop having him job all the time. There are other characters for that now. Like Hit.
9) Get rid of the armour. It's as logical as protecting steel with tissue paper. The buu saga blue jumpsuit was his best look.
10) When the story dictates that Vegeta should be in focus (like when he fought Toppo), put him in focus. Don't have him exist just to comment on what Goku is doing. Make his screentime effective.

[Jigurashi]

Personally I think they should either make him a true rival to Goku or drop him as one entirely. I went back and re-read the original manga over the course of the week, and he really wasn't treated like much of a legit rival to Goku even back then. The Super anime seems to just continue with that process. Goku and Vegeta aren't rivals in the anime. They're closer to rivals in the manga but their dynamic is still the same it's been for a long time, it's utterly boring to me.

But they're never going to make Vegeta a true equal to Goku because like Goku's other rivals, Vegeta was written to be a temporary obstacle to Goku. Sure he gets to remain relevant, but that means nothing when the way he's written as a rival isn't any different than past rivals. The root of the issue is that Vegeta as a character is written to be inferior to Goku, not equal him.

[GodKaio-Ken]

I don't read that much shounen manga anymore, but I guess (I could be wrong) you're talking about Sasuke from Naruto who was gone for what I think were many volumes of the manga at a time? Again I don't know because I dropped off of Naruto pretty early on and only vaguely know what happens after the chuunin exams.

If Super was a weekly manga, OR if it ever escapes this molasses-like pace that the ToP has thrust it into, I could see that then. Just not at the crawling pace Super's currently moving at.

I was talking about shounen in general like Pokemon or even MHA.

And the tourument isn’t all that slow. It’s slow by Super’s standards.

Pokemon I dropped off at the beginning of Johto, so yeah I do remember how Gary would only show up every once in a blue moon and it was an event when he did.

Even though I really like the character designer for MHA (Umakoshi's the same guy who designed characters for HeartCatch Precure) MHA's premise didn't grab me and I have no real interest in picking it up.

I agree, it is just slow by Super's standards. When I was skimming through another thread the other day someone was talking about how many weeks the Freeza and Buu arcs took (one was 50 eps and the other as 70? Something like that). I just got used to and enjoyed having arcs that began and wrapped up in 16 to 18 weeks.

I didn't think I'd like MHA either but I really ended up liking it. If you have seen/like Hunter X Hunter it's basically that show repackaged into Super Hero's.

Anyway on topic sorry, I think reaction to arc length depends on how exciting the content is. If it's 70 of plot relevant and entertaining material that's a different experience than a shaky 70 episode arc.

[snpaa]

I didn't think I'd like MHA either but I really ended up liking it. If you have seen/like Hunter X Hunter it's basically that show repackaged into Super Hero's.

Sorry for the offtopic post but how on earth is boko no hero academy like hunter x hunter? I hope your reasoning is stronger then something like "because they had to take an exam/test".

[Doctor.]

90 episodes long.....yikes.

See I never watched Z weekly like that; I watched the Buu arc on weekday Toonami so even though it was 90 episodes, it was only 18 weeks for me, not almost 2 years.

The ToP wouldn't feel so long either if it were 5 days a week instead of once a week.

The Buu Saga was divided into ‘seasons’ on Toonami. Like there was almost a year break after Vegeta sacrificed himself and Kid Buu was months after he appeared.

I don't remember. It's been too long. I know there was a break at some point, I couldn't have told you where without Google anymore.

My point of "five new episodes a week instead of one a week makes long arcs feel shorter" stands though. That's what I'm trying to say.

You could always wait for the arc to watch then binge it. My opinion of the movie retellings improved somewhat once I stopped having to wait for them to get to the new material.

[Chuquita]

Re: HxH

I actually haven't read/watched Hunter x Hunter either. I saw most of Yu Yu Hakusho and really enjoyed that, but HxH's reputation as HiatusXHiatus keeps me from jumping on.

Regarding My Hero Academia; I'm just not into the Superhero genre much unless you count fisticuffs-style magical girls like Precure. I like Umakoshi's art style, I think it's fun and expressive, but super heroes aren't my thing.

Re: binging

I'm not compatible with binge-watching shows. I love watching stuff as it airs live; fresh and new. I like having each episode feel like an event. I love spoilers and go out of my way to find them as early as possible. It's against my personality to wait out an entire arc and spend a whole day binging on a show. I didn't binge watch Z back on Toonami. I saw five episodes a week, but one a day since that's how it aired. If a show is released on Netflix in a batch that's a different story, but I wouldn't go out of my way to wait for a weekly show to backlog; there's more of a chance I wouldn't get around to watching it at all.

That said at least I feel assured that the next arc won't be yet another tournament. Even the original Dragon Ball never did back to back tournaments.

[BWri]

Any replacement of Vegeta as an archrival should be anime only. Vegeta's working very well in the manga.

But the character doesn't need replacing, he just needs a few simple fixes.

1) Narrow the silly gulf in power between him and Goku.
2) Have him be arrogant, but not delusional. If he only has SSB, don't have him talk as if he can beat Goku SSBKKx20 or Jiren. Have his claims backed up by some evidence. The audience has to say, "Okay, I understand how he could believe that".
3) Give him more shine, allowing Goku to consider him a true rival.
4) New, interesting techniques.
5) Actually use strategy and great skill in battle. He should be matured past the energy spam and just powering through everything given how he's middle aged.
6) Don't have him frustrated so much all the time. Have him be more like when he took control of Pui Pui, cool confident and quiet, and let his fists do the talking. So when he is frustrated, it's more meaningful.
7) Have him mature past his immature fear of showing romantic affection to Bulma.
Stop having him job all the time. There are other characters for that now. Like Hit.
9) Get rid of the armour. It's as logical as protecting steel with tissue paper. The buu saga blue jumpsuit was his best look.
10) When the story dictates that Vegeta should be in focus (like when he fought Toppo), put him in focus. Don't have him exist just to comment on what Goku is doing. Make his screentime effective.

At this point, if they changed all this he'd be a whole new character. I understand though, my laundry list of Piccolo changes is similar. It's unfortunate, but this is Dragon Ball syndrome. Rivals get softer as the series goes on and get surpassed. Goku then finds a new one. What kept Vegeta in the role for so long was his Saiyan heritage and his popularity, but I don't think Akira has any desire to change the status quo. If so, he would have done it already.

[Kaiosama]

Any replacement of Vegeta as an archrival should be anime only. Vegeta's working very well in the manga.

But the character doesn't need replacing, he just needs a few simple fixes.

1) Narrow the silly gulf in power between him and Goku.
2) Have him be arrogant, but not delusional. If he only has SSB, don't have him talk as if he can beat Goku SSBKKx20 or Jiren. Have his claims backed up by some evidence. The audience has to say, "Okay, I understand how he could believe that".
3) Give him more shine, allowing Goku to consider him a true rival.
4) New, interesting techniques.
5) Actually use strategy and great skill in battle. He should be matured past the energy spam and just powering through everything given how he's middle aged.
6) Don't have him frustrated so much all the time. Have him be more like when he took control of Pui Pui, cool confident and quiet, and let his fists do the talking. So when he is frustrated, it's more meaningful.
7) Have him mature past his immature fear of showing romantic affection to Bulma.
Stop having him job all the time. There are other characters for that now. Like Hit.
9) Get rid of the armour. It's as logical as protecting steel with tissue paper. The buu saga blue jumpsuit was his best look.
10) When the story dictates that Vegeta should be in focus (like when he fought Toppo), put him in focus. Don't have him exist just to comment on what Goku is doing. Make his screentime effective.

At this point, if they changed all this he'd be a whole new character. I understand though, my laundry list of Piccolo changes is similar. It's unfortunate, but this is Dragon Ball syndrome. Rivals get softer as the series goes on and get surpassed. Goku then finds a new one. What kept Vegeta in the role for so long was his Saiyan heritage and his popularity, but I don't think Akira has any desire to change the status quo. If so, he would have done it already.

The writers won't allow it. At BEST he will be equal to Goku for a time. If Vegeta ends up getting the spotlight over Goku, the fans in Japan will tune out. Japan loves Goku and he is the main character, so they will never let another character steal his spotlight. They already tried doing with Gohan back in the Cell Arc, and it backfired horribly. Toei will NEVER allow it. At best he will be on par with Goku.

[TBMx]

Any replacement of Vegeta as an archrival should be anime only. Vegeta's working very well in the manga.

But the character doesn't need replacing, he just needs a few simple fixes.

1) Narrow the silly gulf in power between him and Goku.
2) Have him be arrogant, but not delusional. If he only has SSB, don't have him talk as if he can beat Goku SSBKKx20 or Jiren. Have his claims backed up by some evidence. The audience has to say, "Okay, I understand how he could believe that".
3) Give him more shine, allowing Goku to consider him a true rival.
4) New, interesting techniques.
5) Actually use strategy and great skill in battle. He should be matured past the energy spam and just powering through everything given how he's middle aged.
6) Don't have him frustrated so much all the time. Have him be more like when he took control of Pui Pui, cool confident and quiet, and let his fists do the talking. So when he is frustrated, it's more meaningful.
7) Have him mature past his immature fear of showing romantic affection to Bulma.
Stop having him job all the time. There are other characters for that now. Like Hit.
9) Get rid of the armour. It's as logical as protecting steel with tissue paper. The buu saga blue jumpsuit was his best look.
10) When the story dictates that Vegeta should be in focus (like when he fought Toppo), put him in focus. Don't have him exist just to comment on what Goku is doing. Make his screentime effective.

At this point, if they changed all this he'd be a whole new character. I understand though, my laundry list of Piccolo changes is similar. It's unfortunate, but this is Dragon Ball syndrome. Rivals get softer as the series goes on and get surpassed. Goku then finds a new one. What kept Vegeta in the role for so long was his Saiyan heritage and his popularity, but I don't think Akira has any desire to change the status quo. If so, he would have done it already.

The writers won't allow it. At BEST he will be equal to Goku for a time. If Vegeta ends up getting the spotlight over Goku, the fans in Japan will tune out. Japan loves Goku and he is the main character, so they will never let another character steal his spotlight. They already tried doing with Gohan back in the Cell Arc, and it backfired horribly. Toei will NEVER allow it. At best he will be on par with Goku.

Fans in Japan didn't tune out when Trunks got the spotlight over Goku in the Zamasu arc.
Didn't tune out when Gohan got spotlight over Goku in the Cell arc. Gohan was more popular than Goku at the time.
Yet will tune out if Vegeta does?

Why? What's so unique about Vegeta that would cause tune out?

And why would what is obviously an international franchise by now, focus only on Japanese audiences?

[Kaiosama]

Toryiama tried passing the reigns to Gohan during the Cell Arc. Obviously it backfired because they brought Goku back and gave him the spotlight in the end vs Kid Buu. Otherwise they would have just had Mystic Gohan finish him. Goku is by far the most popular character in Japan (which has always been their target audience). They don't care what the rest of the world thinks. This is a show made for Japanese kids and it's Goku Time. And Trunks only got the spotlight on Zamasu in the Anime. The Manga had Goku fighting him with MSSB with Vegeta again admitting that Goku was superior and the only one who could beat Merged Zamasu.

[HeroR]

Toryiama tried passing the reigns to Gohan during the Cell Arc. Obviously it backfired because they brought Goku back and gave him the spotlight in the end vs Kid Buu. Otherwise they would have just had Mystic Gohan finish him. Goku is by far the most popular character in Japan (which has always been their target audience). They don't care what the rest of the world thinks. This is a show made for Japanese kids and it's Goku Time. And Trunks only got the spotlight on Zamasu in the Anime. The Manga had Goku fighting him with MSSB with Vegeta again admitting that Goku was superior and the only one who could beat Merged Zamasu.

Toriyama didn't bring Goku back for that reason. He brought Goku back because he personally felt Gohan wasn't a good MC. Heck, Gohan beat Goku in the popularity poll during the Cell Games before he even got Super Saiyan 2 (the poll was taken around the Cell Jr fight).

[Kaiosama]

Toryiama tried passing the reigns to Gohan during the Cell Arc. Obviously it backfired because they brought Goku back and gave him the spotlight in the end vs Kid Buu. Otherwise they would have just had Mystic Gohan finish him. Goku is by far the most popular character in Japan (which has always been their target audience). They don't care what the rest of the world thinks. This is a show made for Japanese kids and it's Goku Time. And Trunks only got the spotlight on Zamasu in the Anime. The Manga had Goku fighting him with MSSB with Vegeta again admitting that Goku was superior and the only one who could beat Merged Zamasu.

Toriyama didn't bring Goku back for that reason. He brought Goku back because he personally felt Gohan wasn't a good MC. Heck, Gohan beat Goku in the popularity poll during the Cell Games before he even got Super Saiyan 2 (the poll was taken around the Cell Jr fight).

Okay, so if I'm wrong... why did he not think that Gohan was a good MC? Was it actually him sincerely believing that, or was it outside influence from his editors? Didn't the Goku fans get really pissed at him when he did that?

[JazzMazz]

Toryiama tried passing the reigns to Gohan during the Cell Arc. Obviously it backfired because they brought Goku back and gave him the spotlight in the end vs Kid Buu. Otherwise they would have just had Mystic Gohan finish him. Goku is by far the most popular character in Japan (which has always been their target audience). They don't care what the rest of the world thinks. This is a show made for Japanese kids and it's Goku Time. And Trunks only got the spotlight on Zamasu in the Anime. The Manga had Goku fighting him with MSSB with Vegeta again admitting that Goku was superior and the only one who could beat Merged Zamasu.

Toriyama didn't bring Goku back for that reason. He brought Goku back because he personally felt Gohan wasn't a good MC. Heck, Gohan beat Goku in the popularity poll during the Cell Games before he even got Super Saiyan 2 (the poll was taken around the Cell Jr fight).

Okay, so if I'm wrong... why did he not think that Gohan was a good MC? Was it actually him sincerely believing that, or was it outside influence from his editors? Didn't the Goku fans get really pissed at him when he did that?

I'm not sure if this is true, but I think it had something to do with the him thinking Gohan didn't have strong enough motivations or goals to be an endearing and ongoing protagonist, or something along those lines.

[sintzu]

They don't care what the rest of the world thinks. This is a show made for Japanese kids.

The Manga had Goku fighting him with MSSB with Vegeta again admitting that Goku was superior and the only one who could beat Merged Zamasu.

Kai's Buu arc was made for the international fans. There's also this : "Shueisha revealed that it had newly established a “Dragon Ball Room”, Its goal is to expand and optimize the globally popular Dragon Ball franchise". I can't wait for this whole DB doesn't matter outside of Japan "misunderstanding" to go away but like other "rumors", it probably won't because it helps certain people push their agendas. It's exactly like the whole "DB was going to end after Freeza" so called rumor that no matter how many people and sites say it's false, it's still used as a fact even today.

What else happened in the manga ? We all know there's another HUGE difference between it and the anime's version and that's Vegeta getting Black all to himself. The sky didn't fall and the franchise didn't die. The simple and basic reason it didn't happen in the anime is because Toei are too uncreative to do something like that.

Okay, so if I'm wrong... why did he not think that Gohan was a good MC? Was it actually him sincerely believing that, or was it outside influence from his editors? Didn't the Goku fans get really pissed at him when he did that?

I'm not sure if this is true, but I think it had something to do with the him thinking Gohan didn't have strong enough motivations or goals to be an endearing and ongoing protagonist, or something along those lines.

Pretty much this. He didn't think he was a good enough character to hold an arc in a way Goku was and I agree with that. Having things end with Gohan and maybe Gotenks fighting Super or kid Buu would've taken away Vegetto, Vegeta's speach & Goku's Genki Dama to name a few.

[HeroR]

Okay, so if I'm wrong... why did he not think that Gohan was a good MC? Was it actually him sincerely believing that, or was it outside influence from his editors? Didn't the Goku fans get really pissed at him when he did that?

I'm not sure if this is true, but I think it had something to do with the him thinking Gohan didn't have strong enough motivations or goals to be an endearing and ongoing protagonist, or something along those lines.

Toriyama explained this more in a manga interview with Toyo back in 2016, when they were hinting the Future Trunks Saga.

Namely, as he drew Gohan he realized that Gohan was happier studying than he was training. I guess you could say Toriyama found Gohan boring.

[TBMx]

Toryiama tried passing the reigns to Gohan during the Cell Arc. Obviously it backfired because they brought Goku back and gave him the spotlight in the end vs Kid Buu. Otherwise they would have just had Mystic Gohan finish him. Goku is by far the most popular character in Japan (which has always been their target audience). They don't care what the rest of the world thinks. This is a show made for Japanese kids and it's Goku Time. And Trunks only got the spotlight on Zamasu in the Anime. The Manga had Goku fighting him with MSSB with Vegeta again admitting that Goku was superior and the only one who could beat Merged Zamasu.

Why would the manga be different to the anime's reception? They already proved that can give the kill to a non Goku character and the Japanese won't switch off in...what, total disinterest? This sounds like a self fulfilling cycle:

Japanese fans only want Goku so we hype Goku near exclusively...which is why Japanese fans only want Goku. What's inherently so great about DBS's Goku?

Of course Gohan's popularity died off during the early Buu saga. They turned him into a weakened nerd and a superhero parody that stopped being funny the first time he went on about the Great Saiyaman. The anime especially overplayed it into sheer tediousness.

If Goku Time to the nth degree was what Japan wanted, GT should have been a hit.

And again, I have to ask, why is it made exclusively for Japanese kids? They know it gets translated into English, they know they have a huge western audience, why not say, partial focus on western tastes and mostly made for Japanese kids?