Would it still be Dragon Ball with out Goku, his family, and friends?

[Grimlock]

Ignoring Dragon Ball Online -- which very few people here played in its native language during its original run, and which itself was an unfinished/unrealized product -- all of those instances are one-off stories. Furthermore, the Bardock and Trunks TV specials are stories in service of something else entirely; for Bardock, it's the Freeza arc, and for Trunks, it's the Cell arc. They don't stand alone, and both of them ultimately rely on Goku as their driving force (Goku's eventual fight / Goku's death resulting in the timeline).

One-off stories that worked. Now imagine if we get to see a more detailed story, showing Bardock feats and searching for clues on how he came to realize Freeza's real intention and leading to his confrontation against him, and a more detailed story, showing all events that happened prior to Trunks going to the past. It's all in the same vein as that Superman's series about his grandparents and Krypton, if it's possible to tell that story, I don't see how expanding those TV Specials wouldn't be too. And if Bardock and Trunks can carry their known stories, I also don't see why they wouldn't be able to carry different ones.

I would say Goku was more of plot device for both stories, their driving force, as you put it, and I'm okay with that. I don't want to get rid of Goku, but the franchise has proven more than once that other characters can be the main protagonist. As such, those one-off stories could become an entire saga, in service of someone else but without having to rely in this someone else massively, and both stories would still work just fine. Then we get to new stuff, Dragon Ball Online, as far as the game went, Trunks was cool as a protagonist again and Goku was again nowhere to be seen (well, apart from the past Goku, of course).

But that's not actually the underlying question, whether they could be neat or fun or interesting or even just "good". The question is whether they would be Dragon Ball or not, to which I would answer an emphatic "no". They would have its title, its name, its story... but in all likelihood, not its underlying spirit.

That spirit is Goku.

Do we really need to have that spirit all the time? Does this franchise really need to have that spirit in every material?

And as I write all this, it sounds like I'm making out this story and this character and this author to be at some untouchable height, but it feels quite the opposite to me deep down. Dragon Ball is so simple. Goku is so simple. Even Toriyama is so simple. Without those three being together, it somehow compounds itself into something... else. Even at its lowest of lows, when it's Toriyama and Goku and Dragon Ball, it's absolutely still "Dragon Ball" in all that that means.

I think I see why I entirely disagree when people say "but this is not Dragon Ball". With such different and successful stories out there, to me, Dragon Ball is not just Goku, it's not just a guy who wants to be strong. Dragon Ball has grown so much that other themes can be applied, it might even bear a theme without having to twist the original purpose of the series. It can be something else, it can be about someone else. Maybe it's because I liked those original stories so much that I lost the sense of "without Goku, there's no Dragon Ball"? I fell in love with the franchise as a whole, not just one particular thing, and I never kept myself stuck solely in what I was watching in the main series and seeing in the manga. I did grow up seeing Goku and his adventures, but that alone wasn't enough for me to like him so much to the point of me requiring his presence all the time and everywhere, when there were always other characters and other stuff going on. Probably Goku is not enough for me, I need the whole franchise, because I know it can offer more, I know there's more beyond Goku and what he can offer.

[ABED]

One-off stories that worked. Now imagine if we get to see a more detailed story, showing Bardock feats and searching for clues on how he came to realize Freeza's real intention and leading to his confrontation against him

He didn't search for clues. Bardock had a vision. What are you asking for, a much longer movie or an entire series, what exactly? This response is in the same vein as "it worked a little, so more is better." We know from experience, even in DB alone, that's not always the case.

I liked those original stories so much that I lost the sense of "without Goku, there's no Dragon Ball"?

Then I think you miss the point. A short story here and there is fine, but taking Goku out of the spotlight for an extended period doesn't work. This franchise is defined by its main character. His personality is reflected in the world and its tone. This idea that we're asking for it all to be about him and nothing but him is a misunderstanding. I and others think the story is best when it remains about him. Other characters can and should do contribute something important, but Goku is the primary focus.

[Khandom101]

Nah, Goku is the heart and soul of dragon ball. In smiple terms Goku = Dragon ball. Goku is what moves the franchise forward without him it would turn into absolute shit.
Seriously, He is like the superman of Shonen jump . He is the face of dragon ball and not to mention the biggest money maker too. Others are replaceable but Goku isn't so my answer is a straight NO.

[KBABZ]

I think the pre-Captain Ginyu content of the Namek saga shows that the story can work without that. That one had a cast of Krillin, Gohan, Bulma, Vegeta and Frieza (plus his henchmen); Goku wouldn't arrive for a long time. The beloved Saiyan Training filler, whilst also showing Goku having antics on Snake Way and on Kaio's world, is primarily about Gohan's journey, and that worked very well. And as mentioned, the Garlic Jr. arc operated (to varying degrees of quality due to the writing) entirely without him as well. Goku may well have carried the story the entire time thus far, but I personally don't think he's the only one able to do that.

And I agree with this fully. It was the fantastic 'supporting' cast moving the story for countless episodes while Goku just sitting on a ship. Doesn't matter that the story was awaiting for Goku's arrival, the events were happening and changing rapidly on Namek and that was without Goku's involvement. And of course Future Trunks and his entire deal is another proof of DB being able to exist outside Goku. The universe and cast encemble is simply good and rich enough for it to happen and that's also a testimony to Toriyama's achievement.

Friggin' finally! I think if Dragon Ball is so intrinsically tied to Goku as people say, it's a damn miracle that i still worked despite his repeated absences in the story. And I'm not BSing myself here; Kid Goku is my all-time favourite character on the show and in animation in general. I get that Goku is THE Shonen character, but to me saying that he is so intrinsically tied to the story that it wouldn't be the same is like saying Star Wars wouldn't be the same without Darth Vader.

Even with those 2 examples somewhat applying to none Goku parts in the story, that's not what the topic about, it's about a story without Goku AND his friends. Also keep in mind that those parts are just that, parts in Goku's story, not an entire new story with just new never before seen characters.

I discussed this in my first post here. I think it could work if you retain several core elements to the franchise that are not character-related, which is the focus on fighting/adventure, the Dragon Balls, and the futuristic/ancient China mashup of a world. To me the biggest hurdle is the audience having enough patience to grow to like those characters in the absence of everybody else, not "oh but now the whole thing falls apart without this and this and this character".

[Bruma rabu]

Ok for those saying that the series could still be dragon ball with out the main cast and goku then why didn't Toriyama not call Jacos manga
"Jaco the Galactic Patrolman a dragon ball story"or "dragon ball : Jaco the Galactic Patrolman".
When it comes to gokus and his friends descendants(Gohan, goten, Trunks, bra, marron, ect) you could make a spin off and still be able to call it dragon ball.

[Lord Beerus]

No. I recently rewatched the first part of Dragon Ball (everything from the first chapter of the manga/first episode of the anime to the last chapter/episode of the 23rd WMAT), and I'm currently rewatching the Z portion of the story, and to be quite frank, Dragon Ball just wouldn't work without Goku. He drives the story in the way that no other character can really do. For a simple story like Dragon Ball is, and what it is centred around (martial arts), I don't imagine getting the most of a story like that more than any other character besides Goku. He's the heart and soul of Dragon Ball that keeps the story interesting.

[ABED]

but to me saying that he is so intrinsically tied to the story that it wouldn't be the same is like saying Star Wars wouldn't be the same without Darth Vader.

Star Wars isn't the same without Darth Vader, and that's what many people have said. But even in the case of Star Wars, it's central premise lends itself more to changing the focus of the story. Dragon Ball, despite being named after the McGuffins, isn't actually about them. It's about one character.

I discussed this in my first post here. I think it could work if you retain several core elements to the franchise that are not character-related, which is the focus on fighting/adventure, the Dragon Balls, and the futuristic/ancient China mashup of a world. To me the biggest hurdle is the audience having enough patience to grow to like those characters in the absence of everybody else, not "oh but now the whole thing falls apart without this and this and this character".

How many good spin-offs can you think of that were premise based? Now how many can you think of that were based off a character?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Can't believe there's seriously people who think Goku could be replaced as the MC when even Toriyama admitted otherwise.

[DBZAOTA482]

No, it would be a very dramatically different story.

[Bruma rabu]

Can't believe there's seriously people who think Goku could be replaced as the MC when even Toriyama admitted otherwise.

I think a spin off could work, and it could carry the name dragon ball but not a main series.

[KBABZ]

I'd like to see a Jaco series. Not just a single line but something more expansive.

[Akyon]

Well ask yourself? Would you watch a prequel series about Roshi? A series about Bardock? A series set 100 years in the future with Goku Jr.? etc?

We've already seen other eras through flashbacks, specials and movies. Dragonball is no stranger to doing things without Goku.

The answer is hell no, who cares about those guys? One offs are one thing but an entire series would be a total failure.

I mean...I care about Roshi?
But we've had time to get to know Roshi and as such get emotionally invested in him, so a prequel series about him, whilst never going to do as well as Goku's story, would probably be decently recieved still.

Bardock I still cannot care about, but hey maybe we'd see the way Frieza rose to power and recruited everyone. I wouldn't mind seeing what Ginyu's original body looked like, and whether Zarbon, Dodoria and the rest of the force actually willingly joined or if they're all like Vegeta; the last of their kind forced to work for him.

On topic; When Super was announced this was actually a concern of mine.
I thought at first it was going to be a passing of the torch style story, and I've never been down with those... I was expecting Uub to be the protagonist, but I'm very pleased I was completely wrong there. Nothing against the kid, but he's an incredibly gifted young fighter who happens to have a power level far above what he should, and we already saw this storyline with Gohan. Goten and Trunks have had a swing at this storyline too, with even more disappointing results, and frankly it'd be far more interesting to watch someone struggle from nothing to become impressive than just magically naturally gifted.

[KBABZ]

Kind of ironic really when you look back and see that the series tried twice to do the passing the torch thing. First it was with Gohan, but then we flipped back to Goku with him being brought back to life two times, and then again at the very end of the series with the revised Kanzenban ending (which GT contradicts by shoving Uub to the side). Maybe that's why Super takes place before that, so that Goku can stick around as the title character?

[ABED]

The end of Z was not a passing of the torch. It wasn't implying that Uub was going to take over for Goku as the title character had the story continued.

[floofychan333]

Well, the fan theory that says that the world would have been better off if Goku never existed is quite dubious. While it gives a reasonable explanation about how the villains of DBZ wouldn't have had the same impact, it completely ignores the original Dragon Ball. Without Goku, Emperor Pilaf would have had no opposition in gathering the Dragon Balls and if he ruled the world he could have enslaved the population. This would obviously impact the role of Capsule Corp and the RRA if they'd been enslaved by Pilaf. The scenario shows the two facing off without distraction from villains with Capsule Corp easily winning, but if they'd come under Pilaf's control they'd be busy working for him and might even end up working together, unless they were able to fend him off and stage a revolution.

[KBABZ]

Well, the fan theory that says that the world would have been better off if Goku never existed is quite dubious. While it gives a reasonable explanation about how the villains of DBZ wouldn't have had the same impact, it completely ignores the original Dragon Ball. Without Goku, Emperor Pilaf would have had no opposition in gathering the Dragon Balls and if he ruled the world he could have enslaved the population. This would obviously impact the role of Capsule Corp and the RRA if they'd been enslaved by Pilaf. The scenario shows the two facing off without distraction from villains with Capsule Corp easily winning, but if they'd come under Pilaf's control they'd be busy working for him and might even end up working together, unless they were able to fend him off and stage a revolution.

I think the topic is more from a spiritual sense, not a literal "how would the story pan out without him?" canon sense.

[Bullza]

The franchise would die very quickly without Goku and his family and Vegeta and his family.

Even I as a huge fan would have very little interest if they were to move on to new characters.

The majority of my interest has already gone for Naruto now that the series is focused on Boruto and his classmates and that series does still have the old main characters still in it so I just wouldn't care at all for a Dragon Ball series without them.

[Basaku]

Yes a fantastic SUPPORTING cast. Funny that you bring up Trunks, because once again, he went to the past to talk to Goku. Stories that move on from a main character after a long run have a hard time of it. It's a move that's rarely for the better. The reason Goku is taken out of action in DBZ doesn't prove how great the story can work without him, it proves his value. Toriyama takes him out of action to up the stakes and tension. It's the same reason Justice League stories often take Superman out of commission.

DB is VERY simple. It's about a guy that loves a good fight. That's really the story at its core. The story is easily digestible for anyone.

It doesn't prove his value, it only proves he's used as a plot device. Proving his value is beside the point, what's undeniable is the fact that the supporting cast already proved itself to be so good on its own that it can carry the story with no or little-to-none actual screen time from Goku, nor his contribution to the developing story. That's what happened on Namek or in Trunks special. People did not watch those just because "omg it's vaguley connected to Goku or maybe Goku will arrive in 50 episodes!". They watched it glued to the screens because it was good, thanks to the characters.

[ABED]

That's so asinine to call him a plot device. Goku has a motivation and agency.

They watched it glued to the screens because it was good, thanks to the characters.

That's always been the case, but that doesn't prove that without Goku as the primary focus, people will continue to watch, because despite him not being in scenes with them, he's still the main character and the final confrontation is building to Goku vs. the antagonist. It's great they can carry their own story. That in no way proves your point that if Goku is not the main character, the story will remain popular. The more interesting characters you have, the better. Hopefully they do impact the story, otherwise, why are they there? But Goku is undeniably the spirit of the story. A 45 minute special and one plot thread doesn't prove the story can exist permanently without Goku.

"omg it's vaguley connected to Goku or maybe Goku will arrive in 50 episodes!".

No they don't think of it in those terms, but we did anticipate Goku's arrival.

[DragonBallFoodie]

The DB universe has expanded to accommodate many interesting characters, but IMHO Goku is the soul of the saga and it won't be awesome/fun without him around.