What does "Daizenshuu" mean to you?

[Kaboom]

SSj4 Vegeta is made of so much raw awesome, he doesn't NEED pretentious, unnecessary notions of "canon."

Besides, guess what? Toriyama gave his approval and blessing to GT, just like he did the Daizenshuu. How's that for "canon?"

[Phenomenol]

SSJ4 Vegeta looks like he was bathed in Gorilla fur and drenched with red paint with those tight pants on.

Too bad Toriyama became part of the audience with GT.

[Rocketman]

ChiChi makes both Goku and Vegeta her bitches.

[Kaboom]

ChiChi makes both Goku and Vegeta her bitches.

Ain't that the truth.

[Phenomenol]

I agree!

[Kaboom]

Glad to see we're all in agreement now! So the consensus is that SSj4 Vegeta and sweaty, naked, air-humping SSj2 Goku are both ugly as sin, and Chi-Chi is better than either of them!












...This was a fun thread.

[Olivier Hague]

There is no way everything in that guide can be taking seriously. I mean, come on, Tenshinhan was one of the three-eyed people or whatever they were called. There was no such mention during the series, and no mention of his background period.

I fail to see how that means that "can't be taken seriously"...

Official guidebooks like the Daizenshû reveal extra bits of info all the damn time. It's nothing new, it's nothing uncommon.
Sure, you can argue that maybe the author wasn't even aware of these additions and wouldn't approve them (even though he supposedly "supervised" the book), but you'll have to come up with something better than "this one tidbit can't be taken seriously because it wasn't mentioned in the series". We know it wasn't mentioned in the series. If it were, it wouldn't be "new info", and we'd have no reason to even discuss its validity, would we?
So... anything else? Any reason to believe that bit about Tenshinhan's ancestry is wrong? Does it contradict anything?

He didn't even write the books.

Oh, come on...
For the nth time, you can't expect mangaka to write guidebooks.
I mean... Seriously, now...

Also, Kid Buu cannot instantly destroy entire galaxies.

Godnopleasedont

I merely stated what Toriyama said.

You obviously don't understand what Toriyama said.
Not that there's any challenge, really... I guess you simply like your version better.

[Phenomenol]

You obviously don't understand what Toriyama said.Not that there's any challenge, really... I guess you simply like your version better.

"I'm the author of the series, parts that I've lost touch with are in no short supply. I often fell into a lot of the problems during the series so if this massive encyclopedia was around back then, I would really have been saved..."

Toriyama said that he would use the books for info, it's simple really.

[FindKenshi]

Hm, I knew this was a subject of debate, but if I knew it was a subject of "Super Violent Bloody Argument!!" I may have shyed away from even starting the topic.

Phenonomenol: clam down, buddy. When you put things in this way:

Other than that, the Tenshinhan argument is just plain fucking stupid.

Why in the hell would they go to such lengths to make him an alien? The same people who doubt that are probably the same retards who believe Loose Change.

...it makes you look somewhat ignorant. People who disagree with you on a debatable subject are "probably the same retards who believe Loose Change"!? That's just going way overboard. You have to be able to debate without resorting to personal insults and attacks on character, like that. Saying these things doesn't strengthen you arguement, and give it more weight. Instead it serves only to make you look like a megalomaniacle fool that refuses to accept the fact that anyone other than yourself can have an opinion. We all have trouble accepting other's opinions at time, myself included, but really now.. you can't possibly expect people to take you seriously when this is how you go about getting your point across.

Olivier Hague:

You provide a very good argument, and what you say makes a lot of sense. I'm glad you could convey it in a clam professional manner.

Official guidebooks like the Daizenshû reveal extra bits of info all the damn time. It's nothing new, it's nothing uncommon.
Sure, you can argue that maybe the author wasn't even aware of these additions and wouldn't approve them (even though he supposedly "supervised" the book), but you'll have to come up with something better than "this one tidbit can't be taken seriously because it wasn't mentioned in the series". We know it wasn't mentioned in the series. If it were, it wouldn't be "new info", and we'd have no reason to even discuss its validity, would we?
So... anything else? Any reason to believe that bit about Tenshinhan's ancestry is wrong? Does it contradict anything?

All good points here. That is the purpose of books like this, not just to compile information and pretty pictures, but also to give you something special and new. To answer your question, no: Tenshinhan being decended from aliens doesn't contradict anything in the manga.

You have a very unique take on this, and that's what I was hoping for when I started this topic: a fresh new look on things that I hadn't seen before.

As for the "So... anything else?" how about the Daizenshuu stating that Son Gohan was only a regular Super Saiyan when he fought Dabura, and made his ill-fated stand against Fat Buu.

Sure, going by visual evidence in the manga, it does indeed appear that he was just a basic Super Saiyan, but going by logical evidence shouldn't he by all rights have been Super Saiyan 2, in order to be matching a being that Goku compared to Cell?

There's also the fact that Kaioshin sensed Gohan's ki as a Super Saiyan 2 at the Tournament, and measured it to some extent. (He stated that Gohan's power was huge, and he questioned his own ability to stop such power). Later Kaioshin doubts the Z-senshi's abilites to defeat Dabura, shouldn't this mean that whatever power Kaioshin felt earlier from Gohan is not thus sufficient to defeat Dabura? Nailing this argument down is the fact that after Goku destroys Yakon, Kaioshin is shown musing to himself about the Saiyans' incredible powers, and he wonders if "Gohan wasn't even at full power?" at the Tournament. Later, we see Gohan and Dabura fighting evenly. Doesn't it make sense that he would have to be a Super Saiyan 2, given those above mentioned facts?

The point is, it's a debatable subject, a strong case can be made for both sides. But the Daizenshuu says he was just Super Saiyan, probably based solely on the art, and taking nothing else into consideration.

[SaiyamanMS]

Hm, I knew this was a subject of debate, but if I knew it was a subject of "Super Violent Bloody Argument!!" I may have shyed away from even starting the topic.

No, it's not your fault. Really, you had no idea this would happen. And 99.9% of the time it wouldn't. Also...

Instead it serves only to make you look like a megalomaniacle fool that refuses to accept the fact that anyone other than yourself can have an opinion.

That is pretty much what Phenomenol is. You're new here, so you wouldn't know about this, but he's kicked up several shit storms in the past. (Especially in regard to whether Broly and Kid Buu have the ability to destroy a galaxy in a single attack...) ^^;;

[caejones]

Meh, I personally think Phenomenol was getting better and this thread turned into a combo preemption/bad reaction circle of death... but eh. I figure for everyone's sake dropping that mess would be wise.


For me, the daizenshuu are like... Pojo, oly much, much better (what with being produced by the Author's staff and all). That said... it's much more rewarding to get information from the series itself.

[Olivier Hague]

Toriyama said that he would use the books for info, it's simple really.

Indeed. He didn't say that they were canonic. That's different.

As for the "So... anything else?" how about the Daizenshuu stating that Son Gohan was only a regular Super Saiyan when he fought Dabura, and made his ill-fated stand against Fat Buu.

Actually, I was just referring to that bit about Tenshinhan, there, in reply to Super Saiyan Turlast x4. ^_^;
I'm afraid I don't remember the statements you're referring to... and my memory is a bit fuzzy about the scenes they refer to anyway, so... ^^;

[Herms]

As for the "So... anything else?" how about the Daizenshuu stating that Son Gohan was only a regular Super Saiyan when he fought Dabura, and made his ill-fated stand against Fat Buu.

Actually, Dabra's profile in Daizenshuu 7's character guide says something to the effect that he was able to fight evenly with Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2, implying that Gohan was Super Saiyan 2 when they fought.

[FindKenshi]

As for the "So... anything else?" how about the Daizenshuu stating that Son Gohan was only a regular Super Saiyan when he fought Dabura, and made his ill-fated stand against Fat Buu.

Actually, Dabra's profile in Daizenshuu 7's character guide says something to the effect that he was able to fight evenly with Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2, implying that Gohan was Super Saiyan 2 when they fought.

Is that so? And here I was always told that "The Daizenshuu states that Son Gohan was SSJ1 vs Dabura." Just goes to show just how wrong "widely acepted information" on the internet can be at times. I was told that the character bios featured in Tenkaichi 2 were straight from the Daizneshuu books, and in Gohan's bio it stated he went Super Saiyan 2 at the tournament, and then never again.

Makes me wish I had these books, but I couldn't read them even if I had them. I guess the best I can do is continue sending Viz letters suggesting that they translate them and bring them to the states. (Something I've been doing at least every three months ever since they first started publishing Dragonball here.)

With Tenkaichi 3 on its way to America, the recent "internet buzz" about supposed production beginning this month for a Live Action DBZ movie, and Funimation re-releasing the anime in the new "Remastered" box sets.. it seems as though DBZ could be slated to make another comeback in America. What better time for Viz to release these books? I wonder if they legally even can get ahold of whatever license they need to, in order to translate these books and publish them for the English speaking community.

Anyway, thanks for that bit about Daizenshuu 7 stating that Gohan was SSJ2 vs Dabura.. if only I could confirm that to be true, it would end a LOT of confusion/debate among fans, as well as go further to validate these books.

[Phenomenol]

Hm, I knew this was a subject of debate, but if I knew it was a subject of "Super Violent Bloody Argument!!" I may have shyed away from even starting the topic.

...it makes you look somewhat ignorant. People who disagree with you on a debatable subject are "probably the same retards who believe Loose Change"!? That's just going way overboard. You have to be able to debate without resorting to personal insults and attacks on character, like that. Saying these things doesn't strengthen you arguement, and give it more weight. Instead it serves only to make you look like a megalomaniacle fool that refuses to accept the fact that anyone other than yourself can have an opinion. We all have trouble accepting other's opinions at time, myself included, but really now.. you can't possibly expect people to take you seriously when this is how you go about getting your point across..

Trust me; I am calm, I am always calm. This isn't a "Super Violent Bloody Argument!!" It only turns that way when people think their opinions override FACTS. I apologize if I have offended you with my posts.

Me accepting FACTS makes me look ignorant? Don't get the logic there, How about the people who don't accept what is stated because they don't like how it was put? That sounds ignorant to me don't you think? And if you noticed it was ONE member who OUTRIGHT bashed me in this thread for NO REASON at all.

Lets not soley try to put the bash maniac label on Phenomenol when he wasn't the instigator.

Something Toriyama himself would use has Tien as an "Alien," I think I would use it too if the Author would.

That is pretty much what Phenomenol is. You're new here, so you wouldn't know about this, but he's kicked up several shit storms in the past. (Especially in regard to whether Broly and Kid Buu have the ability to destroy a galaxy in a single attack...) ^^;;

Oh boy, I go by what is shown and stated not OPINION or speculation. I actually enjoy my Dragonball, I don't try to overanalyze like other Dragonball fans. I take what is there without getting technical over a comic/anime. Thank you.

Indeed. He didn't say that they were canonic. That's different.

You don't understand, Toriyama (the author) using the Daizenshuu's can be considered canon. He doesn't have to say it when the Author himself SAID he would use the info from the books. Oh what? Something the author would use is "non-canon?" That does not make sense. Basically the books are canon if Toriyama himself would use them.

[Cypher]

Man, can't conflicting opinions be stressful sometimes?

[FindKenshi]

In this case, the term canon means "The works of an author that are considered authentic." In this sense, only the manga itself, is truly canon. That Toriyama would have used these books for references to his own work does not make them canon. Canon refers only to the manga. There is a difference between "offical" and "canon". No one was disputing that these books are offical.

The question is, when something in the Daizenshuu is stated that overrides something in the manga, what then? Are you telling me that just because Toriyama said he would use the books as a reference, that you would follow them rather over the manga?

I know you guys brushed off the whole "power levels" entry in the Daizenshuu as "no big deal, who cares," But the fact remains, that in the manga the Saibamen were stated directly to be "equal to Raditz", but in the Daizenshuu, Raditz is given a 1500 reading and the Saibamen a 1200 reading. Your only response to this is "who cares", but I think you should care, because that is a contradiction to what we are told in the manga. If they can't even get simple things like Who is stronger/equal to who correct, why should we believe any of what it says?

Now, my own opinion is not that extreme. I don't feel that one little slipup should be used to completly invalidate the entire series of books, that's not fair. But the fact remains that it is indeed a contradiction, and that at least makes them questionable. That they are "canon" is not a fact, so stop insisting that it's a fact.

As far as you being perfectly calm, if the way you debate while "perfectly clam" is to call people who disagree with you "retards" and throw the f-bomb around frequently, then although I've only been here for two days total I already have very little respect for you.

Again, that kind of thing does not strength your case or make you look more authoritive, it just makes you look like a big baby. The Daizenshuu does contain (some) contradictary information. Toriyama did not outright state that "This information is all compliant with Dragonball, and should all be regarded as indisputable fact." If he had said that, then I would agree with you: it would be a fact that they are "canon". That, however, is not what he said.

[Herms]

Is that so? And here I was always told that "The Daizenshuu states that Son Gohan was SSJ1 vs Dabura." Just goes to show just how wrong "widely acepted information" on the internet can be at times. I was told that the character bios featured in Tenkaichi 2 were straight from the Daizneshuu books, and in Gohan's bio it stated he went Super Saiyan 2 at the tournament, and then never again.

I should clarify that while Dabra's bio does imply that Gohan was Super Saiyan 2, the Daizenshuu aren't always internally consistent (look at the whole fiasco over's Raditz's battle power). So there could be something else in another Daizenshuu or even another part of Daizenshuu 7 that says otherwise (Daizenshuu 7 is crazy huge). That might be what they were referring to.

Unfortunately, I don't have my Daizenshuu in my dorm, and home is a six hour drive, so I can't really investigate this any further. Maybe at Thanksgiving...

Makes me wish I had these books, but I couldn't read them even if I had them. I guess the best I can do is continue sending Viz letters suggesting that they translate them and bring them to the states. (Something I've been doing at least every three months ever since they first started publishing Dragonball here.)

A few forum members have been discussing translating the books themselves and posting the translations on the internet. I'd be interested in helping with that, although I'm not sure what the legality of that would be.

Anyway, thanks for that bit about Daizenshuu 7 stating that Gohan was SSJ2 vs Dabura.. if only I could confirm that to be true, it would end a LOT of confusion/debate among fans, as well as go further to validate these books.

I could make a scan the next time I visit home, although I'm not sure how convincing people would find it ("I can't read that! It could say anything!"). By the way, I'm not saying that the fact that Dabra's bio implies Gohan was SSJ2 definitively proves that he was.

I do think one of the main reasons there are all these debates over the validity of the Daizenshuu like this is that they aren't sources of information directly available to most fans, so it naturally leads to mistrust whenever someone cites them as proof ("You're wrong! It says so right here in this book I have that you'll most likely never see, and wouldn't be able to understand even if you did! QED.") It's a shame, since they really are great books.

[Phenomenol]

In this case, the term canon means "The works of an author that are considered authentic." In this sense, only the manga itself, is truly canon. That Toriyama would have used these books for references to his own work does not make them canon. Canon refers only to the manga. There is a difference between "offical" and "canon". No one was disputing that these books are offical.

The manga being the "only canon" is not for you to decide it is up to the author. I can post an excerpt from the Daizneshuu where Toriyama considers the Anime like the Manga!! Toriyama said that "I fell into a lot of the problems during the series so if this massive encyclopedia was around back then, I would really have been saved..." Toriyama said he would have used this book during the series if need be. Why would you not use something the author would use?

The question is, when something in the Daizenshuu is stated that overrides something in the manga, what then? Are you telling me that just because Toriyama said he would use the books as a reference, that you would follow them rather over the manga?

I would use them like Toriyama said he would use them with the Manga. Since Toriyama sanctioned the Daizenshuu's and recognized their work and even went so far as to compliment it by saying he could have used it, IT's not canon? Anything contradictive should be considered Toriyama's own mistake.

I know you guys brushed off the whole "power levels" entry in the Daizenshuu as "no big deal, who cares," But the fact remains, that in the manga the Saibamen were stated directly to be "equal to Raditz", but in the Daizenshuu, Raditz is given a 1500 reading and the Saibamen a 1200 reading. Your only response to this is "who cares", but I think you should care, because that is a contradiction to what we are told in the manga. If they can't even get simple things like Who is stronger/equal to who correct, why should we believe any of what it says?Now, my own opinion is not that extreme. I don't feel that one little slipup should be used to completly invalidate the entire series of books, that's not fair. But the fact remains that it is indeed a contradiction, and that at least makes them questionable. That they are "canon" is not a fact, so stop insisting that it's a fact.

Again, The Daizenshuu's mistakes are Toriyama's mistakes. The Daizenshuu's triumphs are his triumphs. As well as those of his staff.

If you only regard that which Toriyama solely created as the story, then forget Fusion, cause Toriyama didn't even think of that!

As far as you being perfectly calm, if the way you debate while "perfectly clam" is to call people who disagree with you "retards" and throw the f-bomb around frequently, then although I've only been here for two days total I already have very little respect for you.

Again, that kind of thing does not strength your case or make you look more authoritive, it just makes you look like a big baby. The Daizenshuu does contain (some) contradictary information. Toriyama did not outright state that "This information is all compliant with Dragonball, and should all be regarded as indisputable fact." If he had said that, then I would agree with you: it would be a fact that they are "canon". That, however, is not what he said.

Again, I am calm I told you I was riled up by one member who came in here to bash me for no reason at all. You don't have to respect me I am fine with that, this is the internet after all, but you will respect this canon I post.

I never said the Daizenshuu's are indisputable fact, I said at the start that nothing is infallible. Yes, Daizenshuu's has contradictions that extend as far as....Raditz power level. And Goku's date of revival....which no one brings up anyway but it's the one thing that stands out in my memory. Where they contradict, go by the comic/anime. When they present new information not present in the comic, there's no evidence that exists to the contrary and with Toriyama's name on it, it's approved. Toriyama himself said he would use these books WHILE writing the series are you telling me that something the Author would use is not canon? I think something the author would use to WRITE his story with certainly is canon.

[Cypher]

OK, so…if your average Dragonball fan has a query specifically regarding the manga, they check the manga to find the answer, correct? But Toriyama-sensei implies that he would use the Daizenshuu to find the answer to something he had forgotten about the manga that he wrote himself…Does that mean that the Daizenshuu is now the first level of canon, and the manga is only there to support the Daizenshuu?