What does "Daizenshuu" mean to you?

[Phenomenol]

Daizenshuu's

Beyond anything else, *this* is actually what's bugging me the most.

The word is already plural. It also doesn't need to be possessive. For the love of god. Please.

Yeah, I knew you would catch on! My bad, I learn something new everyday here.

Now I know it's a little bit different, but still the anime is just as official and its license was just as legally valid.. so do you consider anime-filler to be canon?

Lets find out what Toriyama said.....

BIG UPS TO DAYSPRING!

12: From time to time, il would happen that people whom I didn't even know were approaching me about the anime. Things were often said like: "Oh jeeze, between the manga and the anime, you must never take any time to let yourself breathe!". In reality, I had hardly worked at all on the anime, I had put confidence in my collaborators. I had enough to do just with the manga. I didn't want to work myself to death, you know...

Toriyama: I want to live until I'm 100 years old!

13: For example, drawing an image of a movement in a manga is relatively simple, but to animate this image, you had to decompose the movement and draw all the intermediary movements. That demands a colossal amount of work. (Ok, the example of Kame-sennin might not be the most appropriate...)

14: Of course, those who have read Dragon Ball have noticed that certain stories which are found in the anime didn't existe in the manga.

Oolong: What's this? I never saw that in the manga....

END: As one adventure in the manga corresponds to about 10 minutes of animation, and since one episode comprises on average 30 minutes, the entire series of Dragon Ball would have passed by very quickly. The team of animators therefore had to insert some original stories. I admire what they have done, that's a hell of a job!

Toriyama: Dragon Ball, it's the anime and the manga!

[Olivier Hague]

I admire what they have done, that's a hell of a job!

But... but... I thought Toriyama did the filler!?!

[Phenomenol]

I admire what they have done, that's a hell of a job!

But... but... I thought Toriyama did the filler!?!

I: Do you always have in mind the minute details for anime story plans that don't appear in the printed original?

TA: I usually come up with the plans that are supposed to capture the general gist of the story. For example, for the part of an episode that will skip to five years in the future, I create the story line, "These things must have happened within those five years."

http://db.schuby.org/daizex/viewtopic.p ... 76&start=0

Anime IS canon, get over it.

[Olivier Hague]

I: Do you always have in mind the minute details for anime story plans that don't appear in the printed original?

Aaah, yes, we've certainly never discussed that one before...

Anime IS canon

Yeah, I saw how Toriyama utterly failed to talk about "canon", but obviously that's what he meant!

You're fucking hopeless. Seriously.

[Phenomenol]

Aaah, yes, we've certainly never discussed that one before...

Yeah...

Yeah, I saw how Toriyama utterly failed to talk about "canon", but obviously that's what he meant!

You're fucking hopeless. Seriously.

So, what the hell does this mean...

DRAGONBALL, IT'S THE ANIME AND THE MANGA!

[Olivier Hague]

what the hell does this mean...
DRAGONBALL, IT'S THE ANIME AND MANGA!

"Watch the anime too, it's cool, and great guys have worked on it!"?
I don't think it would be too hard to get Toriyama to say that Dragon Ball is the manga and the anime and the video games...

But of course, you took that as a statement about canon and whatnot. Naturally.
Just like you apparently didn't think that "In reality, I had hardly worked at all on the anime, I had put confidence in my collaborators. I had enough to do just with the manga. I didn't want to work myself to death, you know..." and "I admire what they have done, that's a hell of a job!" could possibly, who knows, maybe, mean that Toriyama didn't write the filler. How shocking would that be?

Oh, by the way, did you bother to check the pages I mentioned in that other topic? Maybe not, huh?
(then again, would it really matter if you did? you're not going to change your mind, are you?)
Anyway, there's that funny story where a writer of the anime staff is horrified to see that Toriyama killed an important character in the manga, and that means he'll have to rewrite the filler scenario he had just completed for the TV series! Hilarious! But since Toriyama is the one who wrote all of the TV filler, I guess that doesn't make any kind of sense, huh?

[FindKenshi]

Ok, so you actually DO consider filler to be canon... that answers that question. I could go on to ask you why Cell and Freeza have their bodies when it's stated that "bad guys and regular people don't keep their bodies" (A statement made in the anime, not just the manga), or ask you to explain to me about "Base Goku > Pikon /w Weights > "Super Perfect" Cell > FPSSJ Goku > Base Goku) ... but that's the stuff of a completly different topic. All I can say is it baffels me, that you think someone saying they like something means its canon. AT appreciates the hard work it took to animate Dragonball and to write the Filler scenes, that does not mean he's endorsing their validity. Besides, he was probably paid by Toei to say that "Dragonball: It's the anime and manga" line. It sounds a lot like a commercial endorsement to me.

[Rocketman]

Anime IS canon, get over it.

So, who kills Cargo?

[MajinVejitaXV]

Anime IS canon, get over it.

So, who kills Cargo?

No one, Kuririn and Gohan will take Dende back to him later.

-Corey

[Olivier Hague]

So, who kills Cargo?

Why, they both did!

[TripleRach]

It was Appule with a candlestick in the conservatory.

[Kaboom]

So, who kills Cargo?

Why, they both did!

//Attempts to read//

[Ex-Dubbie369]

DRAGONBALL, IT'S THE ANIME AND THE MANGA!

So that means that the movies and such aren't Dragonball?

[Adamant]

I: Do you always have in mind the minute details for anime story plans that don't appear in the printed original?

TA: I usually come up with the plans that are supposed to capture the general gist of the story. For example, for the part of an episode that will skip to five years in the future, I create the story line, "These things must have happened within those five years."

Translation:

I come up with some general "guidelines" for parts of the story that will be anime-added. As an example, when Goku left his friends to train for the 22nd Budokai, I'd tell Toei something along the lines of "Goku will be travelling the world alone, training for the tournament and having some fun adventures along the way. This is a great place for you to stall for a while and make up some new material, until you pick up the story I'm writing again, which will jump 3 years into the future to the point when everyone is arriving at the Budokai".

[FindKenshi]

I know that the whole Anime vs Manga thing has been debated on countless times, on this and every other dragonball board out there--it's just beating a dead horse. Phenom, I'm not saying you are wrong for considering it canon, I'm saying you are wrong for asserting that your personal opinion on the matter is fact.

You are saying, in these exact words "The anime is canon. Akira Toriyama said so."

Then you go on to post an interview and an editorial, both of which prove NOTHING. It proves that he appreciates the hard work that Toei put in. That's pretty much it. If your opinion is that the anime is canon, more power to you. You certainly aren't alone. But just remember it is just that: an opinion. None of those interviews or editorials you posted/linked us to prove that it is canon. Now, no more dead horse beating, I wanted this topic to focus on the Daizenshuu. Nothing else

Anyway...

A few forum members have been discussing translating the books themselves and posting the translations on the internet. I'd be interested in helping with that, although I'm not sure what the legality of that would be.

The legality? If all they're doing is posting raw text-only translations I seriously doubt anyone's toes would be getting stepped on. Of course, I'm anything but a copyright lawer... I know the copyright law usually does state that reproduction "in part" is prohibited.. but to be perfectly honest.. it doesn't even seem that unethical to me. I mean, you can't even buy these books in America! They are super rare. I guess it would be a morally gray area, but if anyone is indeed planning to do so, I would wish them Godspeed and support them 100% of the way!

Unfortunately, I don't have my Daizenshuu in my dorm, and home is a six hour drive, so I can't really investigate this any further. Maybe at Thanksgiving...

I could make a scan the next time I visit home, although I'm not sure how convincing people would find it ("I can't read that! It could say anything!"). By the way, I'm not saying that the fact that Dabra's bio implies Gohan was SSJ2 definitively proves that he was.

I would appreciate that to no end. And don't worry about people questioning the validity of a raw Japanese scan. There are a few translators I know of on the gamefaqs dragonball community where I come from, and although I know people tend to say, "random internet translator? Please. You don't know how accurate they are"; the fact that there are more then one of them around helps a great deal. If two or three different people produce the same translation, you know it's likely to be authentic.

Anyway, that would be AWESOME if you could produce a scan of any daiz book saying Gohan was SSJ2 when he fought Dabura.

The source of people saying "The Daiz says he was ssj1" happens to be a rumor (and I am now convinced it may be a very false rumor indeed), that the Character Bios featured in Sparking Meteor / Tenkaichi 2, were taken from the Daizenshuu.

I now understand how naive I was, to really assume something we read in a video game was taken from the Daizenshuu books. I should have known better... but as it stands a great deal of people I know still declare that he was listed ssj1 in the Daiz, so I'm eagerly awaiting any news on this matter. I'm so excited.

And yes, I know that it stating he was SSJ2 or SSJ1 doesn't prove anything either way. It would just be a big discovery that the "general consensus" of that group has been dead wrong for a long time now. I like "new and exciting" information, especially when it's revealed about Dragonball: which by all rights should contain no more surprises for anyone by now, eh?

[Raki]

[

And since Toriyama sanctioned it and recognized their work and even went so far as to compliment them by saying he could have used it, IT's not canon? anything incorrect should be considered Toriyama's own mistake.

All Toriyama was doing is showing great respect to the people that helped to make the Daizenshuu by saying he could have used something like that when he was doing the series. It by far doesn't meant that its canon. It just means he's grateful for their work.

[Casual Matt]

Why does it seem like most people have to classify everything into "canon" or "not canon". Really, there are two different canon universes.

There's Manga Canon, which just includes the manga.

Then there's Anime Canon which includes the DB, DBZ, and DBGT anime, it's filler, the TV Specials, DBZ Movie 1 (despite it causing minor plotholes), and DBZ Movie 13. (DBZ Movie 7 could easily be Anime Canon, but unlike 1 and 13, there's nothing in the anime referencing it to be)

There's is no way to cram the anime and manga together into one "canon" just because they share many events. (Not just what's seen in the manga, but it's sorta implied the events of the Bardock special occured in the manga timeline) There are also differences between them such as Cargo's killer and the events surrounding Trunks going SSJ.

As for the Daizenshuu, they are what they are. Guidebooks with interesting tidbits. They are good for referencing for a multitude of purposes. Toriyama himself even said he would reference them. I don't think some people should take some of this stuff as seriously as they do, either. For example, saying "Tenshinhan has alien ancestry because the Daizenshuu says so" or "he doesn't because the manga doesn't say so" are both far too cut and dry. I think what should be said is "Tenshinhan may have some kind of alien ancestry because it mentions so in the Daizenshuu, but it's never referenced in the manga or anime." Not everything has to be labled TRUE or FALSE. What's wrong with having a few maybes with some speculation?

[Herms]

The source of people saying "The Daiz says he was ssj1" happens to be a rumor (and I am now convinced it may be a very false rumor indeed), that the Character Bios featured in Sparking Meteor / Tenkaichi 2, were taken from the Daizenshuu.

Well, the character profiles in the Sparking! series aren't identical to the ones from the Daizenshuu by any means, but I think that they do incorporate some of the material from them. For instance, I seem to recall that Tenshinhan's profile in the first Sparking! game included that bit about him being descended from the Three-Eye tribe.

[Phenomenol]

"Watch the anime too, it's cool, and great guys have worked on it!"?
I don't think it would be too hard to get Toriyama to say that Dragon Ball is the manga and the anime and the video games...

But of course, you took that as a statement about canon and whatnot. Naturally.
Just like you apparently didn't think that "In reality, I had hardly worked at all on the anime, I had put confidence in my collaborators. I had enough to do just with the manga. I didn't want to work myself to death, you know..." and "I admire what they have done, that's a hell of a job!" could possibly, who knows, maybe, mean that Toriyama didn't write the filler. How shocking would that be?


Oh, by the way, did you bother to check the pages I mentioned in that other topic? Maybe not, huh?
(then again, would it really matter if you did? you're not going to change your mind, are you?)
Anyway, there's that funny story where a writer of the anime staff is horrified to see that Toriyama killed an important character in the manga, and that means he'll have to rewrite the filler scenario he had just completed for the TV series! Hilarious! But since Toriyama is the one who wrote all of the TV filler, I guess that doesn't make any kind of sense, huh?

*FACE PALM*

Again, don't ignore what the man is saying what the hell does this mean...

Toriyama: "DRAGONBALL, IT'S THE ANIME AND THE MANGA!"

Ok, so you actually DO consider filler to be canon... that answers that question. I could go on to ask you why Cell and Freeza have their bodies when it's stated that "bad guys and regular people don't keep their bodies" (A statement made in the anime, not just the manga), or ask you to explain to me about "Base Goku > Pikon /w Weights > "Super Perfect" Cell > FPSSJ Goku > Base Goku) ... but that's the stuff of a completly different topic. All I can say is it baffels me, that you think someone saying they like something means its canon. AT appreciates the hard work it took to animate Dragonball and to write the Filler scenes, that does not mean he's endorsing their validity. Besides, he was probably paid by Toei to say that "Dragonball: It's the anime and manga" line. It sounds a lot like a commercial endorsement to me.

Is "Filler" in the Anime? WHY YES IT IS....

So what does this mean?

Toriyama: "DRAGONBALL IT'S THE ANIME AND THE MANGA!"

So that means that the movies and such aren't Dragonball

That's right....

TORIYAMA AKIRA SUPER INTERVIEW
From Daizenshuu Vol. 6: Movies & TV Specials. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interviewer: How would you position the animated movie Dragon Ball?

Toriyama Akira: I consider the movies to be a 'different dimension' from the original, printed comic edition. With the movies, I become part of the audience.

Dragonball Movies are non-canon stated by Toriyama.

[Rocketman]

Hey! Don't dodge the question! Who kills Cargo?