What does "Daizenshuu" mean to you?

[SonEric84]

"Watch the anime too, it's cool, and great guys have worked on it!"?
I don't think it would be too hard to get Toriyama to say that Dragon Ball is the manga and the anime and the video games...

But of course, you took that as a statement about canon and whatnot. Naturally.
Just like you apparently didn't think that "In reality, I had hardly worked at all on the anime, I had put confidence in my collaborators. I had enough to do just with the manga. I didn't want to work myself to death, you know..." and "I admire what they have done, that's a hell of a job!" could possibly, who knows, maybe, mean that Toriyama didn't write the filler. How shocking would that be?


Oh, by the way, did you bother to check the pages I mentioned in thatother topic? Maybe not, huh?
(then again, would it really matter if you did? you're not going to change your mind, are you?)
Anyway, there's that funny story where a writer of the anime staff is horrified to see that Toriyama killed an important character in the manga, and that means he'll have to rewrite the filler scenario he had just completed for the TV series! Hilarious! But since Toriyama is the one who wrote all of the TV filler, I guess that doesn't make any kind of sense, huh?

*FACE PALM*
Again, don't ignore what the man is saying what the hell does this mean...

Toriyama: "DRAGONBALL, IT'S THE ANIME AND MANGA!"

It means they're both titled Dragon Ball?

[Casual Matt]

Yeah, just because something is Dragon Ball doesn't mean it's "canon", and just because something isn't canon, doesn't make it Dragon Ball.

Phenomenol, you seem to be operating under the assumption that "If Toriyama says it's Dragon Ball, then it's canon" which is an absurd statement if you stop and think for a second or two.

Anyway, as I said before, it's all pretty much irrelevant because there are two different (yet very similar) canon storylines. The Manga and the Anime. I don't think you can really argue about that, considering there are indeed differences between them.

[TripleRach]

Dragonball Movies are non-canon stated by Toriyama.

But what about Garlic Junior, and Haiya Dragon, and Coola, and Tapion's sword, and...!?!?!

[Phenomenol]

@The Lecherous Muten Roshi: Are you terribly ignoring what Toriyama said?

DRAGONBALL IS TORIYAMA'S CANON UNIVERSE AND HE CONSIDERS THE ANIME TO BE IN HIS UNIVERSE!!

THAT IS CANON!

[Rocketman]

Actually, this thread is a pretty good description of what "Daizenshuu" means to me: "Oh lord, not this again".

[Casual Matt]

Are you terribly ignoring what Toriyama said?

DRAGONBALL IS TORIYAMA'S CANON UNIVERSE AND HE CONSIDERS THE ANIME TO BE IN HIS UNIVERSE!!

THAT IS CANON!

First of all, if you want to make a point, support it with evidence. Repeating the same thing numerous times and using all caps doesn't really make for a convincing argument.

Secondly, I see why you may read it that way, but the author simply saying that Dragon Ball is both the anime and manga doesn't necessarily mean they're both part of the same canon universe. Sure, maybe that's what he meant, but you can't insist it to be undeniable like you seem to be doing. Especially since the anime and manga contradict one another in a scatter few aspects.

Anyway, my point is really that Toriyama recognized the hard work of the animators and everybody who worked on the anime, and is perfectly happy to consider the product to be Dragon Ball. What he did not do is yell at the top of his lungs that the anime takes place in his own canon universe. That's your interpretation of his words. Words, I may add, that were spoken solely to praise / congratulate the anime.

[Brad Redfield]

Dragonball Movies are non-canon stated by Toriyama.

But what about Garlic Junior, and Haiya Dragon--

That pretty much ends this "debate".

[Phenomenol]

First of all, if you want to make a point, support it with evidence. Repeating the same thing numerous times and using all caps doesn't really make for a convincing argument.

Secondly, I see why you may read it that way, but the author simply saying that Dragon Ball is both the anime and manga doesn't necessarily mean they're both part of the same canon universe. Sure, maybe that's what he meant, but you can't insist it to be undeniable like you seem to be doing. Especially since the anime and manga contradict one another in a scatter few aspects.

Anyway, my point is really that Toriyama recognized the hard work of the animators and everybody who worked on the anime, and is perfectly happy to consider the product to be Dragon Ball. What he did not do is yell at the top of his lungs that the anime takes place in his own canon universe. That's your interpretation of his words. Words, I may add, that were spoken solely to praise / congratulate the anime.

Let's look at it again shall we..

Toriyama: "DRAGONBALL, IT'S THE ANIME AND THE MANGA!"

Toriyama IS telling you that Dragonball (HIS CREATION/CANON UNIVERSE) is the ANIME and MANGA! That is automatic canon.

Do you see how Toriyama labeled the Movies "ANOTHER DIMENSION?" meaning NOT his universe? Not Dragonball? Which automatically is non-canon.

Can we understand this?

[SonEric84]

You'd think with how often he throws around Toriyama's words he's his friggin personal spokesperson or something.

[Casual Matt]

I think it's time for some proof. But first a little background about me. My name's Matt Thorne, and I'm a Pure Math Major at the largest University in Atlantic Canada, and I can give you a mathematical proof as to why you can't take all of Toriyama's words so seriously and still consider the Manga and the Anime as part of the same canon.

Now for some proof by contradiction.

First we'll assume you're right, and that Toriyama did indeed mean that the anime and manga were both in the same canon universe.

Now, assuming that, we must consider the Garlic Junior Arc to be canon since it's part of the anime, and the anime is canon.

Now, the Garlic Junior Arc has flashbacks to, and continues a story from, Dragon Ball Z Movie 1. So since the anime is canon, DBZ Movie 1 is also canon.

Now, as you said, Toriyama stated that the movies take place in a different dimension than the anime, that they aren't canon. Fair enough.

Since DBZ Movie 1 is one of these non-canon movies, it must be non-canon, too.

But if you notice here, we've concluded that DBZ Movie 1 is both canon and non-canon. But that can't be right. It's a contradiction. Therefore, the assumption made cannot be true. QED.

Now I'm not trying to be a dick or anything, but you have to understand that when you take everything said by Toriyama into account and interpret it as you have, things don't add up. Now you can try to tell me that Garlic Junior isn't canon or that Movie 1 is but then you'd be directly contradicting what you so insist Toriyama has said.

[TripleRach]

Dragonball Movies are non-canon stated by Toriyama.

But what about Garlic Junior, and Haiya Dragon--

That pretty much ends this "debate".

Which is why he's not going to acknowledge or respond to it.

[Phenomenol]

I think it's time for some proof. But first a little background about me. My name's Matt Thorne, and I'm a Pure Math Major at the largest University in Atlantic Canada, and I can give you a mathematical proof as to why you can't take all of Toriyama's words so seriously and still consider the Manga and the Anime as part of the same canon.

Now for some proof by contradiction.

First we'll assume you're right, and that Toriyama did indeed mean that the anime and manga were both in the same canon universe.

Now, assuming that, we must consider the Garlic Junior Arc to be canon since it's part of the anime, and the anime is canon.

Now, the Garlic Junior Arc has flashbacks to, and continues a story from, Dragon Ball Z Movie 1. So since the anime is canon, DBZ Movie 1 is also canon.

Now, as you said, Toriyama stated that the movies take place in a different dimension than the anime, that they aren't canon. Fair enough.

Since DBZ Movie 1 is one of these non-canon movies, it must be non-canon, too.

But if you notice here, we've concluded that DBZ Movie 1 is both canon and non-canon. But that can't be right. It's a contradiction. Therefore, the assumption made cannot be true. QED.

Now I'm not trying to be a dick or anything, but you have to understand that when you take everything said by Toriyama into account and interpret it as you have, things don't add up. Now you can try to tell me that Garlic Junior isn't canon or that Movie 1 is but then you'd be directly contradicting what you so insist Toriyama has said.

Which is why he's not going to acknowledge or respond to it.

Quite simple really,

ANIME Garlic Junior IS Dragonball.
Movie Garlic Junior is in "another dimension" just like Movie Goku!

[Casual Matt]

But... Anime Garlic Junior IS Movie Garlic Junior, and there are flashbacks there to prove it!

[Brad Redfield]

ANIME Garlic Junior IS Dragonball.
Movie Garlic Junior is in "another dimension" just like Movie Goku!

...damn. You certainly got 'em beat there. I mean, sure you ignore the constant flashbacks to the events that transpired in the movie during the whole arc but the logic you showcase is just plain infallible.

[Phenomenol]

But... Anime Garlic Junior IS Movie Garlic Junior, and there are flashbacks there to prove it!

The Flashbacks were from the MOVIE not from the anime.

[SonEric84]

But... Anime Garlic Junior IS Movie Garlic Junior, and there are flashbacks there to prove it!

The Flashbacks were from the MOVIE not from the anime.

But the flashbacks from the movie were IN the anime!

[Casual Matt]

But... Anime Garlic Junior IS Movie Garlic Junior, and there are flashbacks there to prove it!

The Flashbacks were from the MOVIE not from the anime.

Okay, I don't even know what your argument is anymore. Are you implying that the flashbacks are non canon? That'd ludicrous. You can't exclude them like that. They're a part of the anime. If the anime is canon, so are those flashbacks.

[Phenomenol]

They were NOT from the anime but the movie! Which makes them non-canon...it was an entirely different story.

[SonEric84]

And? They were NOT from the anime but the movie!

How in the hell could they possibly be used in the anime if they weren't considered a part of the story? All the characters in that story arc knew who Garlic Jr. was and the only way they would know that is from the events in movie 1.

[Phenomenol]

And Movie 1 is non-canon. The series in the anime is not movie 1.
That's something you guys are going to have to ask Toriyama himself. I wish he could elaborate on THAT subject more but His statement says that Dragonball is the anime and the manga.