What does "Daizenshuu" mean to you?

[TripleRach]

So...

There is one Garlic Junior in the movie that hated Kami and wanted to replace him, and successfully used the Dragon Balls to wish for immortality in order to carry this out. But thanks to Gohan and friends, he was trapped in his own Dead Zone.

Meanwhile, there is another Garlic Junior in the anime who looks exactly the same, has the exact same abilities and transformations, also hates Kami, gained immortality through the Dragon Balls, was imprisoned in a Dead Zone thanks to Gohan, and now he wants revenge.

Oh, okay. There's definitely no way they could be the same person. I guess that explains why they have different seiyuu.

[Casual Matt]

Whatever steam your argument once had has long run out, Phen. You seem to be utterly set against being proved wrong, and now you're contradicting yourself. Those flashbacks to the movie are a part of the anime. You cannot deny that. They are contained within anime episodes, recapping events that already occured. Specifically the events of Movie 1. That, good sir, is fact.

Seriously, if filler is canon, then the Garlic Junior Arc is canon, and thus, Movie 1 is canon, because the entire bloody concept of the Garlic Junior Arc is reliant on Movie 1 occuring within the same timeline.

[Brad Redfield]

And Movie 1 is non-canon. The series in the anime is not movie 1.

...which proves that the whole arc is not canon since it deals with events that happened in the movie.

That's something you guys are going to have to ask Toriyama himself. I wish he could elaborate on THAT subject more but His statement says that Dragonball is the anime and the manga.

How convenient.

[Phenomenol]

Ask Toriyama about that.
I know Dead Zone was a Dragonball Z MOVIE and not the TV series.
Toriyama considers Anime his universe like the manga.
I wish Toriyama would go into detail about these situations.

[SonEric84]

Whatever steam your argument once had has long run out, Phen. You seem to be utterly set against being proved wrong, and now you're contradicting yourself. Those flashbacks to the movie are a part of the anime. You cannot deny that. They are contained within anime episodes, recapping events that already occured. Specifically the events of Movie 1. That, good sir, is fact.

Seriously, if filler is canon, then the Garlic Junior Arc is canon, and thus, Movie 1 is canon, because the entire bloody concept of the Garlic Junior Arc is reliant on Movie 1 occuring within the same timeline.

Exactly, couldn't say it any better.

[Terra-jin]

I think what Phenomenol means is that there are two separate dimensions/universes/whatevers like this:

Anime dimension: flashbacks are from a different Garlic Jr. fight (though in these instances it is exactly the same fight). This fight is in the Anime canon and eventually leads to the Garlic Jr. arc. Somehow, this fight can fit into the timeline.
Movie dimension: the movie in its entirety takes place here. This movie can't take place in the timeline (due to the known reasons). The timeline from this dimension may or may not lead to an unseen Garlic Jr. arc.

But, man Phenomenol, you sure have an awful way of debating. Always keep in mind how others may interpret your explanations and the possibility that you're missing something yourself. Posting repeated statements in bold, oversized caps is extremely annoying and rude.

What part of the Dragonball merchandise you accept as canon is entirely up to you. The manga, the anime and the movies all contradict each other at some points and plotholes are present in all of these levels of canon.
On the topic of whether or not it was Freeza or Dodoria who killed Cargo: The manga was there first, so in my opinion it has priority. Where the manga and anime contradict, the former is 'canon'. Where the anime expands upon the manga, I consider it 'canon', as well. Where there are plotholes, I usually make up for myself on how it should've been and that's my personal canon.

Who cares if someone has a different view on what's canon? In the end it's all a personal taste.

[Phenomenol]

Indeed.

[MajinVejitaXV]

Can we vote to ban him? ;p

-Corey

[Phenomenol]

LOL @ MVJXV! Hey, I see this as fun.

think what Phenomenol means is that there are two separate dimensions/universes/whatevers like this:

Anime dimension: flashbacks are from a different Garlic Jr. fight (though in these instances it is exactly the same fight). This fight is in the Anime canon and eventually leads to the Garlic Jr. arc. Somehow, this fight can fit into the timeline.
Movie dimension: the movie in its entirety takes place here. This movie can't take place in the timeline (due to the known reasons). The timeline from this dimension may or may not lead to an unseen Garlic Jr. arc.

But, man Phenomenol, you sure have an awful way of debating. Always keep in mind how others may interpret your explanations and the possibility that you're missing something yourself. Posting repeated statements in bold, oversized caps is extremely annoying and rude.

What part of the Dragonball merchandise you accept as canon is entirely up to you. The manga, the anime and the movies all contradict each other at some points and plotholes are present in all of these levels of canon.
On the topic of whether or not it was Freeza or Dodoria who killed Cargo: The manga was there first, so in my opinion it has priority. Where the manga and anime contradict, the former is 'canon'. Where the anime expands upon the manga, I consider it 'canon', as well. Where there are plotholes, I usually make up for myself on how it should've been and that's my personal canon.

Who cares if someone has a different view on what's canon? In the end it's all a personal taste.

This is Quoted For Truth!

I see the anime and Manga as Dragonball. Whenever I talk about Dragonball I use both the anime and manga. I enjoy even the movies; I like DBGT as well. That's how I see it.

I count GT/Anime/Movies/Manga as part of the series?!

[Shenron]

So, if I got it right,

The manga is "manga-canon"
The anime is "anime canon"
The movies are "movie canon".

Wow, that was worth the last 5 pages

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

And Movie 1 is non-canon. The series in the anime is not movie 1.
That's something you guys are going to have to ask Toriyama himself. I wish he could elaborate on THAT subject more but His statement says that Dragonball is the anime and the manga.

You're not making the least bit of sense. If you watched the Garlic Jr saga, then you should know that there were constant flashbacks to when Gohan knocked him into the zone. Even Popo described all of the events one-by-one. What you say makes absolutely no sense! Whether you like it or not, they're connected!

[Olivier Hague]

Again, don't ignore what the man is saying what the hell does this mean...
Toriyama: "DRAGONBALL, IT'S THE ANIME AND THE MANGA!"

Don't tell me I'm ignoring things. You just ignored a clear evidence that Toriyama didn't write all of the TV filler, and you're now striking back by claiming a vague statement is "obviously" about canon when it's really far from being that specific.
Like I said: hopeless.

Are you terribly ignoring what Toriyama said?
DRAGONBALL IS TORIYAMA'S CANON UNIVERSE AND HE CONSIDERS THE ANIME TO BE IN HIS UNIVERSE!!

His exact words!
Well, almost.

ANIME Garlic Junior IS Dragonball.
Movie Garlic Junior is in "another dimension"

(because the movies aren't anime, didn't you know? not that it's the stupidest thing about the quote above, but still...)

[Xyex]

See, Phenomenol, there is one major issue with your position here. It doesn't work. You *can not* accept the anime, on whole, as canon without also accepting the movies. You *can* however, accept the anime minus contradictory filler as canon. Thus the likes of the Garlic Jr. saga are excluded from canon as it is contradictory.

[FindKenshi]

Phenomenol, you just agreed that in the end it is personal taste.. so then why do you keep insisting that YOUR personal taste is fact. You keep repeating the "DRAGONBALL: IT'S THE ANIME AND MANGA!" line over and over again.

Look, buddy, we read it the first time.

Guess what?

It doesn't mean a damn thing. Dragonball: it's the anime, manga, video games, card games, board games, wall scrolls, posters, ect ect..

That is just as true a statement. Now do you get it? For him to say that Dragonball is both the anime and manga, does not mean that the anime and manga are the "same universe", because that is not what he said.

You put words into Toriyama's mouth, that he did not say, which is very disrespectful. It's even more disrespectful when you say "The Daizenshuu's mistakes are Toriyama's mistakes" even though he did not write the books.

I don't know who you are really, but you seem to be a Toriyama-hater since you keep trying to make his work look like a horribly convulted continuity (there is no way the anime and manga universe is "the same" and you keep dodging key points like who killed cargo, or why is Pikon > Cell but weaker then BASE GOKU, etc)

Sure he said he apprecaites the hard work of Toei, and says to not exclude the anime, but that is not the same as saying it is all one canon universe.

Again, I don't care that you feel the anime is canon, actually I'm proud of you. Way to go, not conforming and being your own personality. HOWEVER, that being said.. stop saying

"But my theory is RIGHT, because TORIYAMA SAID SO."

That is NOT what Akira Toriyama said. Period.

[NeptuneKai]

This is great; I can't believe I was missing out on this debate the whole time.
Phenomenol wins this argument obviously. If you say something in large bold font over and over again it has to be true.

[VegettoEX]

This would indeed be hilarious if it wasn't so painfully saddening, and the complete opposite of what this forum was intended for. I think my tolerance has far exceeded the necessary and appropriate limit.

Sorry, FindKenshi. The lock's definitely got nothing to do with you.

[VegettoEX]

I'm opening this back up because... well, it should be pretty obvious by now why the conversion could probably continue to take place . It's a worthwhile conversation that could be had, and it's unfortunate when it can be ruined by a certain type of population.

Unfortunately, I don't have my Daizenshuu in my dorm, and home is a six hour drive, so I can't really investigate this any further. Maybe at Thanksgiving...

I could make a scan the next time I visit home, although I'm not sure how convincing people would find it ("I can't read that! It could say anything!"). By the way, I'm not saying that the fact that Dabra's bio implies Gohan was SSJ2 definitively proves that he was.

Do you remember which particular book this was in? I could take a look at it... I mean, shit... they're all right next to me . These books and the rest of the reference materials aren't mystical items to a large number of people on this forum... we have it all, and we're happy to share our knowledge when we don't get bombarded with completely unintelligible requests.

[SonEric84]

Good to see this thread back open.

Hey Mike, not to change the subject, but what is that book laying on top of your Journey to the West volumes?

[VegettoEX]

Hey Mike, not to change the subject, but what is that book laying on top of your Journey to the West volumes?

You quoted me as I was adding to my post . Don't mind my removing that...

Anyway, it's that DBZ movie 12 book I bought offa Tanooki Kuribo instead of allowing anyone else here to get it...

[SonEric84]

Hey Mike, not to change the subject, but what is that book laying on top of your Journey to the West volumes?

You quoted me as I was adding to my post . Don't mind my removing that...

Anyway, it's that DBZ movie 12 book I bought offa Tanooki Kuribo instead of allowing anyone else here to get it...

lol Don't mind at all. Ohhh so that's where it went. Haha I have the movie 13 one, but I really need to get my hands on that.