Goku's Time Skip

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:22 pm

Firstly, I make power level sheets based upon differences, which also make sense mathematically in the Dragonball world. A little estimation is required so you can't get a completely accurate answer, but an accurate one nonetheless. A lot of stuff has to be looked at and considered, but you end up getting a range in which a person's power level ultimately fits best.

You believe SSj Goku was at 150,000,000 and 100% Freeza at 120,000,000, correct? I can tell you why that doesn't work, and why Freeza has to be much stronger. I will not hold back any information from this post. Any estimations I show will be backed up fully. I will provide manga scans, too.

150,000,000 / 120,000,000 = 1.25x difference.

It may not seem like it, but that is actually enough of a difference to be able to easily manhandle an opponent. I provide two examples:

Vegeta vs. Zarbon

Vegeta's power level was stated as 24,000. Zarbon's is estimated, usually, between 21,000 and 23,000. I am going to put him at 22,000. Why?

As you can see, Zarbon is not only talking like he's shocked Vegeta reached said amount of power (22,000 at the time), but like he's scared, too. One would think that he wouldn't have problems talking while saying this if Vegeta wasn't stronger than himself. But he's obviously not equal to Vegeta. Sound reasonable?

24,000 / 22,000 = 1.09090909x difference. What does this specific difference mean in a fight? Well...

Vegeta fought with a smile on his face nearly the entire battle only showing signs of difficulty when he knocked away Zarbon's blast and when he threw him through the air. Not receiving a blow in battle but leaving your enemy bruised and bloody. Not "breaking a sweat". In other words, you own the entire fight even though you're only roughly 9% stronger than your opponent. If you wanted me to I could scan all 9 pages of their fight.

The other fight is Vegeta vs. Kiwi.

Vegeta (24,000) vs. Kiwi ("barely 18,000").

How do we know how strong Kiwi is?

How do we know how strong Vegeta previously was?

24,000 / 18,000 = 1.33333333x difference. Enough to kill your opponent with a single attack, because that's what Vegeta did.

Get what I mean? Logically Freeza would have to be stronger to even want to think about fighting with Goku. Heck, near the end of their battle when Freeza's ki finally begins to burn out, that doesn't even seem like a 1.09090909x difference as Goku and Freeza are practically blow for blow, but Freeza's slowing down. So, it should be anywhere from 1.01x - 1.07x/1.08x difference.

Goku shouldn't be any weaker because it would take more than 40x his base strength (before being weakened) to take Freeza at 100% full power.

150,000,000 / 1.01 = 148,514,851
150,000,000 / 1.08 = 138 888 889

Freeza would have to be somewhere in that range of power.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:26 pm

Goku was totally in control of the fight. He was the fuzzy kitty batting a freaked-out mouse around.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:37 pm

The problem is, Akira, you're trying to match the powers in with the Daizenshuu which, if you assume is correct, is impossible. Because the Daizenshuu chose arbitrary and random numbers for Freeza without considering previous forms or powers before hand. They just went "oh, this is big, we'll use it".

42,000 – Nail
66,000 – Piccolo (Post Kaio Training)
1,080,000 – Piccolo (Merged with Nail)

We know that the 42,000 for nail is right, that was given to us. But I doubt Piccolo went from 3.5 thousand to 66 thousand so quickly. Nail was impressed with Piccolo's power but then the average namek warrior was only 3,000 so why wouldn't he be impressed? I'd say he's probably around the 15 thousand range. I'll get to Piccolo + Nail later.

530,000 – Freeza (Form 1)
1,060,000 – Freeza (Form 2)
1,100,000 – Freeza (Form 3)
1,200,000 – Freeza (Final Form 1%)

You're good until you get to Form 3. My 'anal about everything' powers are:

Freeza - 350,000
+ Powered up - 530,000
+ 2nd Form - 1,060,000
+ Powered-up(1) - 1,500,000
+ Powered-up(2) - 2,000,000
+ 3rd Form - 4,000,000
+ 4th Form - 8,000,000

Which puts Piccolo as:

Piccolo - 1,600,000
+ W/out Weights - 2,100,000

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:38 pm

Rocketman wrote:Goku was totally in control of the fight. He was the fuzzy kitty batting a freaked-out mouse around.

Agreed.

There was one bit in the anime where SSj Goku just flies up and literally bitchslaps Freeza back and forth across the face a couple times. Sums up the whole fight rather well, IMO.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:09 pm

Rocketman wrote:Goku was totally in control of the fight. He was the fuzzy kitty batting a freaked-out mouse around.

I disagree. Only at the very end of their fight does Goku have any sort of advantage. Everything up to that point is even.

This image shows Freeza and SSj Goku as blow for blow. This image shows Freeza having a 1-hit advantage against Goku. This image shows Freeza dodging Goku's kick only to be hit a second later, and it leads to this. Goku has a marginal lead. Finally. Next he says Freeza's ki is burning out.

Big Momma · Post by **Big Momma** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:09 pm

Terra-jin wrote:That's actually one of my main problems with Dragonball. All it takes, apparently, to get that much stronger is a short period of 100.G training

I'm not sure if this makes any difference, but the trip to Namek took a few weeks(or months?) and I'm sure Goku easily spent 90% of that time training in Gravity. So that probably helped significantly. Well, speedwise.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:25 pm

Big Momma wrote:I'm not sure if this makes any difference, but the trip to Namek took a few weeks(or months?) and I'm sure Goku easily spent 90% of that time training in Gravity. So that probably helped significantly. Well, speedwise.

For Goku, the trip to Namek took six days.

Smooth Criminal · Post by **Smooth Criminal** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:17 am

How do you get the 150,000,000 number for Super Saiyajin Goku?

That seems WAY too high.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:28 am

Smooth Criminal wrote:How do you get the 150,000,000 number for Super Saiyajin Goku?

That seems WAY too high.

I too think it's too high, but that's what the daizenshuu says.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:48 am

The 150,000,000 power for SSJ Goku is based mostly on his use of Kaioken against varying levels of Freeza's power. We can tell when he uses Kaioken, and most of the time can tell which kind of Kaioken he's using (though... not sure about always), and we have a few ranges of power for Freeza that aren't dependent on whether or not we have seven zeros or six, and from there it's just putting things together.

... I like the 12/15 million better.

. If ssj1 is already over 150,000,000, then where does that put people like Buu and Cell? (And that is why power levels were dropped and speculation is often blegh.)

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:23 am

Simply folks, at that time, Toriyama wanted to quit drawing Dragonball Z. What does he do? He gives Goku a tremendous power that noone can match, and puts Freezer 30,000,000 below him so that Goku can have the upper hand.

It's simply the perfect final battle.

The-two-beings-in-universe-that-noone-can-scratch's final battle.

Going by the series as it continues, 150,000,000 is a too great number, but at the Freezer vs. Goku fight it seems reasonable.

FindKenshi · Post by **FindKenshi** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:42 am

150,000,000 and 120,000,000 are the numbers from the Daizenshuu. If my understanding is correct, I do believe that the 12,000,000 and 15,000,000 numbers date back to planetnamek.com, which had MISTRANSLATED the numbers from the Daizenshuu. Apparently they didn't know what Oku or Man meant. (Even I really don't know what they mean

)

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:29 pm

I think the japanese number-sectioning-thingy is based on 10^4 (as opposed to 10^3 ala our thousands/million/billion diisions). So man is 10,000, and oku is... urm... that with four more zeroes.

.

(Kinda off topic: I remember reading somewhere around here that Toriyama mentioned a cap for powerlevels somewhere? Like, he didn't think it was possible for characters to have powers exceeding a certain huge amount... but I don't remember exactly and searching didn't help much.

. )

Horgus · Post by **Horgus** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:36 pm

Tyro wrote:
Rocketman wrote:Goku was totally in control of the fight. He was the fuzzy kitty batting a freaked-out mouse around.
I disagree. Only at the very end of their fight does Goku have any sort of advantage. Everything up to that point is even.

This image shows Freeza and SSj Goku as blow for blow. This image shows Freeza having a 1-hit advantage against Goku. This image shows Freeza dodging Goku's kick only to be hit a second later, and it leads to this. Goku has a marginal lead. Finally. Next he says Freeza's ki is burning out.

I disagree. Right after Goku transformed, he jumped his power significantly and batted Freeza around, trying to see the level of control he had over the fight (check the scene where Goku knocks back a previously dominant 50% Freeza with only a charged ki thrust)

He kept pushing Freeza to use more and more of his strength, because, as Freeza was supposed to be the strongest being that ever lived, he as a Saiyan wanted a good fight.

While Freeza surprised Goku a few times when he jumped his ki up, when he was forced to go 100% the fight was over, Goku intentionally matched himself up with Freeza at 100% and drew the fight out purposefully so he could satisfy himself after all the atrocities Freeza had committed.

Goku could have ended the fight at any time after going SSJ, as evidenced by how easy Trunks took out Freeza.

The only difference was that Goku liked to reform his foes, and Trunks simply wanted Freeza dead.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:35 pm

Smooth Criminal wrote:How do you get the 150,000,000 number for Super Saiyajin Goku?

That seems WAY too high.

150,000,000 million comes from Freeza being at 3,000,000 in his fourth form after transforming to it/when Goku arrives. Which then makes those anal about how this or that *has* to be follow the Daizenshuu with its 120 and 150 million powers, despite that fact that if you do require everything to match up exactly those powers are woefully short. Matching up Freeza's powers exactly puts him at 8,000,000 in his fourth form (and 320 million at full power).

Personally I think somewhere more along the lines of 50 million is reasonable.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:09 pm

I disagree. Right after Goku transformed, he jumped his power significantly and batted Freeza around, trying to see the level of control he had over the fight (check the scene where Goku knocks back a previously dominant 50% Freeza with only a charged ki thrust)

I was talking about Freeza at full power vs. SSj Goku. More than that, I was talking about when Freeza was soon going to reach the end of his ropes, thus their last fight. That’s why I said

Get what I mean? Logically Freeza would have to be stronger to even want to think about fighting with Goku. Heck, near the end of their battle when Freeza's ki finally begins to burn out, that doesn't even seem like a 1.09090909x difference as Goku and Freeza are practically blow for blow, but Freeza's slowing down. So, it should be anywhere from 1.01x - 1.07x/1.08x difference.

I think it’s pretty obvious Goku was in control of his fight with Freeza at only half power.

He kept pushing Freeza to use more and more of his strength, because, as Freeza was supposed to be the strongest being that ever lived, he as a Saiyan wanted a good fight.

I doubt Goku pushed Freeza like he did because he wanted to fight Freeza at full power. Freeza fighting at full power really was his only way of not getting killed, and as stated by Goku when Freeza begins powering up:

Goku: “You wanted it this way, didn’t you? Or else you would have fired at the planet again and that would’ve been it.”

Sounds to me like Freeza wanted to fight Goku after Goku threatened to kill Freeza before he “buys time for himself”.

While Freeza surprised Goku a few times when he jumped his ki up, when he was forced to go 100% the fight was over, Goku intentionally matched himself up with Freeza at 100% and drew the fight out purposefully so he could satisfy himself after all the atrocities Freeza had committed.

Goku: “I wont let you buy time for yourself!!! I’ll put an end to this once and for all!!!!!”

Goku could have ended the fight at any time after going SSJ, as evidenced by how easy Trunks took out Freeza.

Gohan stated Freeza grew much stronger than the level he was at when he arrived on Earth.

Saiyan · Post by **Saiyan** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:06 pm

Tyro wrote: Goku: “I wont let you buy time for yourself!!! I’ll put an end to this once and for all!!!!!”

Dragon Ball Z Vol. 11; Pg 115

"I'm waiting for you to reach full power Freeza. I want to beat you while you're at your best...so you'll have no regrets as a warrior." - Goku

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:14 pm

I fully agree that Goku let Freeza reach full power but only after declaring that he was going to kill him. He only halted his rush at Freeza when he sensed his rising ki.

Shenron · Post by **Shenron** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:09 am

Saiyan wrote:
Tyro wrote: Goku: “I wont let you buy time for yourself!!! I’ll put an end to this once and for all!!!!!”
Dragon Ball Z Vol. 11; Pg 115

"I'm waiting for you to reach full power Freeza. I want to beat you while you're at your best...so you'll have no regrets as a warrior." - Goku

Wrong translation, Goku wants to défeat Freeza at Full Power to test his own capacities, not to be kind with Freeza. I don't remember the topic where we already talked about this.

Horgus · Post by **Horgus** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:52 am

Tyro wrote:Goku: “I wont let you buy time for yourself!!! I’ll put an end to this once and for all!!!!!”

I always interpreted this to mean Goku wanted to scare Freeza into using his full power, and, possibly as a way to insult his martial prowess by being dismissive.

Freeza was obviously very proud of his 100% strength, I think we can agree that the reason he eventually was defeated so badly was because he wouldn't accept how outmatched he was, his greatest fear had been fulfilled, and he even had many, many chances to end the conflict before Goku transformed.