The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[nickzambuto]

In order to bust the solar system, Cell's Kamehameha would have to reach the edge in relatively short order. Ki dissipates not long after it leaves the user.

Cell just said he had enough energy to destroy the solar system. For all we know his kameaheha could split off and destroy everything like star killer base did or the explosion could just expand at a really fast rate. Or maybe he has the power to destroy all of the mass in the solar system but he can't cover all of the empty space. Either way that tells us nothing about his movement speed. At best it is his ki or ki explosion speed.

What

[Noah]

That's only on equal or similar power battles, like his 2nd fight with Zarbon. Everytime a foe was much stronger than Vegeta he got his ass handed to him. He's a good fighter, not a miracle man. Piccolo is also a battle genius btw.

Sorry, I did poorly word my argument back there. Gohan doesn't directly backs Vegeta up, but his statement has a similar value to Vegeta's by implying the Base Saiyans could solo the Budokai in base. Anyways, it's never implied Gohan's desire to win would be affected by fighting in base.

I'm not taking the statements literally, you're just denying then. Shin thinks he needs help to fight Babidi, but is astonished by Base Vegeta. Shin instantly recognizes Yakon and tells they should team up, but Goku is able to hold is own against the beast. Babidi thinks his minions can solo Shin and the "Marvelous Energy" who are far above Piccolo. Everything points out exactly to Shin being the weakest character in the spaceship.

It's just bad writting tbh. The boys are leagues above #18 as SSJs, as evidenced by their multiple feats placing them closing on Gohan. Probably they couldn't move fast enough without ripping the costume off or something. Also, Toriyama stopped thinking about numbers after Freeza. Arguing about power gaps is irrevelant unless we're talking about Battle Powers specifically.

I'm not taking the statements too literally, i'm just not ignoring them. Dabra says the Saiyans had marvelous energy but is surprised when Goku transformed against Yakon, so he's definitely talking about Base. Doubt Toriayama would just put the statement there with Dabra being wrong and confuse the readers either.

Please, we're not talking about a death match and yes a tournament match, where Vegeta could win against a opponent stronger than him by causing them to ring out.

I didn't say that. What I meant is that Gohan wanted to wi,, but didn't confirm he would no matter the no SSJ condition.

Yes you are as at first he could tell there's something about Goku and the gang that's different from other mortals, so he could rely on them to help fight Babidi.
Less than a hour ago, Kibito was impressed with SSJ2 Gohan power and Kaioshin calmly says that he's stronger than he expected and that's all.
But, I could do like you and compare both situations and confirm that: Base Vegeta > SSJ2 Gohan

But that wouldn't make much sense, would it?

Indeed they are leagues above #18 as Super Saiyans, but not even close in their normal state as you're implying. Also saying Base Saiyans in the Boo arc surpassed the androids and Piccolo (who's possibily stronger than Semi Perfect Cell at that point) is farfetched.

"Marvelous energy" based on their potential, is not like Dabura knew they could multiply their power for half a hundred, but assumed they were stronger than the first time he saw them.

[TobyS]

Trunks (post 1st RoSaT visit) was surprised when Goku said Piccolo couldn't manage against Cell, and they had all already sensed 50% Goku (thinking it was max)

In addition to Vegeta being an arrogant prick, there's also the obvious fact he'd break the no SS rule the second it was inconvenient to him, such as fighting Piccolo. He's just trying to shut Gohan up. Heck he may not get matched up with Piccolo either way, he may have got his Goku fight in round 1 and then not care what happens...

[dragon boss z]

In order to bust the solar system, Cell's Kamehameha would have to reach the edge in relatively short order. Ki dissipates not long after it leaves the user.

Cell just said he had enough energy to destroy the solar system. For all we know his kameaheha could split off and destroy everything like star killer base did or the explosion could just expand at a really fast rate. Or maybe he has the power to destroy all of the mass in the solar system but he can't cover all of the empty space. Either way that tells us nothing about his movement speed. At best it is his ki or ki explosion speed.

What

I'm saying being able to destroy the solar system doesn't mean he can just take it out with one fast explosion. It just means he has enough ki to destroy everything in the solar system. Technically the solar system is so big it could fit thousands of stars in it, and Cell can't bust thousands of stars at once.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Please, we're not talking about a death match and yes a tournament match, where Vegeta could win against a opponent stronger than him by causing them to ring out.

And how's he supposed to ring out foes incredibly stronger than him? If Vegeta is weaker than Freeza then #18 and Piccolo would just wave Vegeta out of the ring à la Yamcha vs Jackie Chun. You're just reaching here.

Anyway, Vegeta's statement isn't that he's gonna win the Budokai, it's that he's the strongest person at the Tournament:
Chapter: 430 (DBZ 236), P6.5-6
Context: after Gohan asks that nobody becomes a Super Saiyan in the tournament
Vegeta: “…Well, I guess that’s fine. If nobody becomes a Super Saiyan, then the conditions are the same. My superior position doesn’t change…”

I didn't say that. What I meant is that Gohan wanted to win, but didn't confirm he would no matter the no SSJ condition.

He brings up his rustiness after mentioning his desire to win, so he likely expected to be up for the task after brushing off his rustiness.

Yes you are as at first he could tell there's something about Goku and the gang that's different from other mortals, so he could rely on them to help fight Babidi.
Less than a hour ago, Kibito was impressed with SSJ2 Gohan power and Kaioshin calmly says that he's stronger than he expected and that's all.
But, I could do like you and compare both situations and confirm that: Base Vegeta > SSJ2 Gohan

But that wouldn't make much sense, would it?

More like Shin's surprised they can be that strong without powering up.

Indeed they are leagues above #18 as Super Saiyans, but not even close in their normal state as you're implying. Also saying Base Saiyans in the Boo arc surpassed the androids and Piccolo (who's possibily stronger than Semi Perfect Cell at that point) is farfetched.

They're actually pretty close. Trunks blocks almost every hit #18 throws and when she finally lands a blow Trunks instantly bounces back to the ring without injuries. #18 even compliments Mighty Mask's power and Trunks blames the suit for holding them back:
Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P8.4, P9.1-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
Trunks: “Da-dammit! We can’t win like this!”
Goten: “Let’s turn into Super Saiyans, Trunks!”
Trunks: “That's it! We’ve got this thing on, so she won’t be able to tell who we are…Alright! Shall we turn into [Super Saiyans]?”
Goten: “Yeah!”
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”

I don't see why Base Saiyans being above #18/Piccolo is farfetched. A lot of people actually belive on the Saiyans being above #18, although Base > Piccolo is definitely a rare thing to see around.

"Marvelous energy" based on their potential, is not like Dabura knew they could multiply their power for half a hundred, but assumed they were stronger than the first time he saw them.

Why their potential would be any important? Dabra says they've marvelous energy on the original lines. Ki sensors are able to tell when characters are holding back, see Piccolo on Goku/Freeza, Kuririn on Trunks/Cell, Karin on Cell, Vegeta and Kuririn on 3rd form Freeza, etc, etc.

Of course, this could mean Dabra sensed the SSJ power (Kuririn could tell Trunks was holding back a transformation) but i think him sensing only base is more reasonable, otherwise i doubt they would start by damn Pocus.

Trunks (post 1st RoSaT visit) was surprised when Goku said Piccolo couldn't manage against Cell, and they had all already sensed 50% Goku (thinking it was max)

In addition to Vegeta being an arrogant prick, there's also the obvious fact he'd break the no SS rule the second it was inconvenient to him, such as fighting Piccolo. He's just trying to shut Gohan up. Heck he may not get matched up with Piccolo either way, he may have got his Goku fight in round 1 and then not care what happens...

More like Trunks was surprised of Goku's bluntness. Of course, Piccolo did ask for Goku to be frank, but Goku said "Duh" and smiled. That's a pretty weird behavior for someone like Goku who always patronizes people.

Vegeta also boasted his superiority over everyone after accepting the rule, so i think he'd actually follow it.

[Noah]

snip

No, I'm sorry, but you're the one reaching here, even if you realize Super is not canon like I do, only taking the original manga into consideration it's pretty fine that Freeza > Base Saiyans. It keep the battle powers way less inflated.

Vegeta's a cunning bastard, I wouldn't doubt he could find a way to ring out stronger foes, possibly transforming for brief seconds, that the audience eyes couldn't see.

"superior position" could be pretty much directed to Saiyans only, it's reasonable to think he at Base is the strongest one, Goten and Trunks are not, Gohan was rusty and he had no idea how had Goku improved.

No, that's headcanon. He expect to win, but he's not 100% sure about he can do it. It's funny that you bring up Gohan rustiness and yet think somehow he got stronger than the androids at Base in seven years slacking off

Nope, more like a retcon. There's no reason for he to be impressed with Vegeta if he was not that much with a greater power before.

These statements just show that: Goten and Trunks realize they can't win against #18 at base, #18 feels something off about Might Mask, it's unusual for a common contestant to be that strong, not that he's already stronger than her.

Like I said before Base Saiyans being above the androids and Piccolo makes everything inflated and it doesn't make sense for a rational point. You're somewhat minority here. It's quite a common sense that: FP Freeza > Boo arc Base Saiyans.

Again you brought before that Dabura was impressed with Goku vs. Yakon and I said that Dabura could tell that the Saiyans were holding back but had no clue of how strong they could get.

[dragonball0900]

The same Vegeta who's so full of himself he wanted nothing with #20 after fighting #19? So we have to disregard all of his statements now? Vegeta's words were never contradicted and even Gohan thinks he can win in base.

Sure, Piccolo did keep up with the Super Saiyans for like 60% of the Cell Arc, but his days of glory were over when Cell emerged from the water unharmed and snapped his neck.

Him starting stronger than Vegeta Pre Rosat doesn't mean he's going to left stronger than SSJG2 Vegeta. Vegeta had a sparring partner and had more potential than Piccolo as a Saiyan. Personally i think Post Rosat Piccolo is on pair with FP Semi Cell.

Don't you think that Vegeta was only referring to the saiyans? It's possible that when talking about the non SSJ rule Vegeta was more comparing himself to Goku and Gohan, that's why he said he can still be winning. I'm pretty sure he would need SSJ against Android 18 and Piccolo, specially the latter who is by far stronger than the base saiyans by a lot.

I don't think Vegeta was really sparring that much with Trunks. They seem to be training apart most of the time knowing Vegeta's personality. If that was the case then Vegeta would've been clearly aware of Trunks' USSJ transformation. I won't say that he is well above SSJG2 Vegeta. But given how he was holding his own against the Cell Jr, he would have to at least be on his level or a bit above since Vegeta was more or less the same or worse, stomped faster by Perfect Cell, who was weaker than the Cell Jr at the time (since that's Initial Perfect Cell).

Just because he is a saiyan doesn't mean he have to have a lot more of potential than a namekian. Piccolo did manage to improve a lot in 3 years. I'm pretty sure, as I said before, that he is SSJG2 Vegeta tier (I say above him but on the same tier). But all the same, even if he is Semi Perfect Cell level (which I don't think it's true), he would still be way above the saiyans in base since SSJ is a multiplier of x50 and the base saiyans are supposed to be weaker than Frieza.

I do recommend for the saiyans in base to be weaker than Frieza because of how easy it's to compare to other characters. With that we can know that some characters like Kibito are not above Frieza, and the most important thing is that it makes a power level list to be smaller and not going over the top with them and putting bigger numbers.

[Hugo Boss]

snip

No, I'm sorry, but you're the one reaching here, even if you realize Super is not canon like I do, only taking the original manga into consideration it's pretty fine that Freeza > Base Saiyans. It keep the battle powers way less inflated.

Vegeta's a cunning bastard, I wouldn't doubt he could find a way to ring out stronger foes, possibly transforming for brief seconds, that the audience eyes couldn't see.

"superior position" could be pretty much directed to Saiyans only, it's reasonable to think he at Base is the strongest one, Goten and Trunks are not, Gohan was rusty and he had no idea how had Goku improved.

No, that's headcanon. He expect to win, but he's not 100% sure about he can do it. It's funny that you bring up Gohan rustiness and yet think somehow he got stronger than the androids at Base in seven years slacking off

Nope, more like a retcon. There's no reason for he to be impressed with Vegeta if he was not that much with a greater power before.

These statements just show that: Goten and Trunks realize they can't win against #18 at base, #18 feels something off about Might Mask, it's unusual for a common contestant to be that strong, not that he's already stronger than her.

Like I said before Base Saiyans being above the androids and Piccolo makes everything inflated and it doesn't make sense for a rational point. You're somewhat minority here. It's quite a common sense that: FP Freeza > Boo arc Base Saiyans.

Again you brought before that Dabura was impressed with Goku vs. Yakon and I said that Dabura could tell that the Saiyans were holding back but had no clue of how strong they could get.

I agree, there was no guarantee they wouldn’t become Super Saiyan if needed. And it would require an unprecended jump in power to make Gohan stronger than Piccolo without Super Saiyan, taking account he was still in the process of getting in shape.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

No, I'm sorry, but you're the one reaching here, even if you realize Super is not canon like I do, only taking the original manga into consideration it's pretty fine that Freeza > Base Saiyans. It keep the battle powers way less inflated.

Actually Super IS canon, pretty sure Mr Toriyama admited so in interview. Nothing in the original manga implies Freeza > Base, and the BPs actually flow just fine taking off the Freeza > Base Saiyans ceiling.

Vegeta's a cunning bastard, I wouldn't doubt he could find a way to ring out stronger foes, possibly transforming for brief seconds, that the audience eyes couldn't see.

Ok, now that's just conjecture. Gohan suggests fighting in base and Vegeta says "Fine, i'm the strongest here anyway."

"superior position" could be pretty much directed to Saiyans only, it's reasonable to think he at Base is the strongest one, Goten and Trunks are not, Gohan was rusty and he had no idea how had Goku improved.

I doubt it, seeing how he should be aware that Piccolo and #18 are entering. It would be like "Sure, i'm the strongest here, even though i'm fodder to the non saiyans".

No, that's headcanon. He expect to win, but he's not 100% sure about he can do it. It's funny that you bring up Gohan rustiness and yet think somehow he got stronger than the androids at Base in seven years slacking off.

It's not head canon. Gohan says "I wanna win, so i better train", he expected to win after doing some training.

Gohan still being stronger than Piccolo/#18 just suggests Kid Gohan was too. I mean c'mon, it's not like Gohan was multifolds below his Cell Games self. Number wise he's probably 75-66% on his CG self.

Nope, more like a retcon. There's no reason for he to be impressed with Vegeta if he was not that much with a greater power before.

Shin mentions paralyzing Gohan twice though. Probably the retcon was retconed? Regardless, Shin still craps himself after seeing Base Vegeta, reacting on a similar way #18 reacted to Trunks' Ki Blast: Sweating bullets, stuttering (According to Herms) and saying they couldn't be that strong, with emphasis on the "That".

These statements just show that: Goten and Trunks realize they can't win against #18 at base, #18 feels something off about Might Mask, it's unusual for a common contestant to be that strong, not that he's already stronger than her.

They can't win because the suit is holding them back, Trunks accomplishes so. The Daizenshuu also says they fought evenly:

Like I said before Base Saiyans being above the androids and Piccolo makes everything inflated and it doesn't make sense for a rational point. You're somewhat minority here. It's quite a common sense that: FP Freeza > Boo arc Base Saiyans.

It actually flows just fine when you don't try to shrink the gap on Cell Arc. I mean, only Imperfect Cell emerging unharmed from Piccolo's best blast (Which packs a Kamehameha and arguably a Special Beam Cannon) by itself is insane.

Again you brought before that Dabura was impressed with Goku vs. Yakon and I said that Dabura could tell that the Saiyans were holding back but had no clue of how strong they could get.

I more or less agree. He knows they're the strongests, but does not know by how much since he sends Pocus to fight.

Don't you think that Vegeta was only referring to the saiyans? It's possible that when talking about the non SSJ rule Vegeta was more comparing himself to Goku and Gohan, that's why he said he can still be winning. I'm pretty sure he would need SSJ against Android 18 and Piccolo, specially the latter who is by far stronger than the base saiyans by a lot.

I doubt. It just sounds retarted for him to be like "Sure, let's all fight in base because i'm the strongest here, though i'm fodder to Piccolo and #18"

I don't think Vegeta was really sparring that much with Trunks. They seem to be training apart most of the time knowing Vegeta's personality. If that was the case then Vegeta would've been clearly aware of Trunks' USSJ transformation. I won't say that he is well above SSJG2 Vegeta. But given how he was holding his own against the Cell Jr, he would have to at least be on his level or a bit above since Vegeta was more or less the same or worse, stomped faster by Perfect Cell, who was weaker than the Cell Jr at the time (since that's Initial Perfect Cell).

Chapter: 365 (DBZ 171), P9.2-4
Trunks: “I’m going to try training with my father. If it’s really possible to surpass Super Saiyan, then I…[want to try it] too!”
Kuririn: “Well, sure. But I doubt Vegeta will let you work with him.”
Trunks: “I don’t want to train with a father like him either. But I imagine that even he knows that it’s far more efficient to train through sparring than alone.”

Piccolo standing against a playful opponent doesn't mean jack. Goku was standing against 50% Freeza, Base Vegeta was against Pure Boo, Gohan against Recoome etc. The earthlings and Goku took multiple blows from the Cell Jrs, and even Cell said so.

Just because he is a saiyan doesn't mean he have to have a lot more of potential than a namekian. Piccolo did manage to improve a lot in 3 years. I'm pretty sure, as I said before, that he is SSJG2 Vegeta tier (I say above him but on the same tier). But all the same, even if he is Semi Perfect Cell level (which I don't think it's true), he would still be way above the saiyans in base since SSJ is a multiplier of x50 and the base saiyans are supposed to be weaker than Frieza.

Piccolo powered up that much because the plot needed him that strong. There's no plot reason for Piccolo to be anywhere near 50% Goku.

The SSJ being 50x doesn't mean much, Toriyama said he thought of SSJ as a 10x and some situations imply it's not 50x, like #20 + Z Fighters > SSJ Vegeta, Gohan > Piccolo > Goten ~ 18 despite Gohan >= Goten, arguably the Kili thing, Base Gotenks being >> SSJ2s but not far above SSJ3 Goku, etc. Base Saiyans > Freeza is contradictory as BoGs implies Goku is the strongest, what also leads us to Freeza > Base Gotenks, and FnF has the weakest Gohan >>> Piccolo in base.

I do recommend for the saiyans in base to be weaker than Frieza because of how easy it's to compare to other characters. With that we can know that some characters like Kibito are not above Frieza, and the most important thing is that it makes a power level list to be smaller and not going over the top with them and putting bigger numbers.

I don't think Freeza > Base Saiyans works because it flies on the face of what was established back on Z. O Kn the BPs it's even worse because it puts a weirdly low cap on the Cell Arc gaps. It's pretty hard to fit #19 lower than 2x Vegeta, but he's still able to push him back several feets and make him bleed. My lists end with FPSSJs being 50x the twins and i actually have to lowball the gaps.

[Noah]

snip

Nope as Toriyama is not the only entity that owns Dragon Ball rights and not fully in charge of the franchise, he said Super is a continuation of his series, he didn't mentioned 'official continuity' and probably never will.

Well, for me none of the statements you brought proves the otherwise (Base Saiyans > Freeza)

No, you're just changing his words to your own interpreation, "if nobody becomes a Super Saiyan" is the key phrase here, he's not talking about Piccolo or #18, but Goten, Trunks, Gohan and Goku.

No it doesn't, you're saying Base Kid Gohan at Cell games was strong than #18 and Piccolo (after RoSaT) is pretty much a flawed logic. Gohan sure has surpassed Trunks, who had improved a lot after training twice in the RoSaT, but he didn't defeat the future androids who were weaker than their present counterparts on his Base form, neither Cell. There's no way Base Gohan was stronger than SSJ Trunks.

Even so, this still could be interpreted as #18 surprised that someone apart from the 'Dragon Team' is way stronger than a normal earthling, also

[spoiler][/spoiler]

They specifically said they cannot win without going Super Saiyan, meaning they're not even close to her as Base. Also I take Daizenshuu statement as after Might Mask turn into SSJ against #18.

For me is not really a matter of numbers: I don't see how the Saiyans could have managed to be stronger than the androids at Base while training in the RoSaT, nor Piccolo who could possibly be at the same level as Semi Perfect Cell.
Even if you say they did it after: it doesn't make sense, cause Vegeta was the only who trained and possibly not harsh as he used to be, Goku was dead, which motivation he had? So seven years in a gravity chamber not efficient as the RoSaT made him get such huge gains? I don't buy it.

[dragon boss z]

I agree with Noah's arguments.

[dragonball0900]

I doubt. It just sounds retarted for him to be like "Sure, let's all fight in base because i'm the strongest here, though i'm fodder to Piccolo and #18"

I don't think Vegeta was taking into account Android 18 and Piccolo when saying that statement. I'm pretty sure he was comparing to all the saiyans. They were all indeed talking only about the saiyans when they meant about that statement.

Chapter: 365 (DBZ 171), P9.2-4
Trunks: “I’m going to try training with my father. If it’s really possible to surpass Super Saiyan, then I…[want to try it] too!”
Kuririn: “Well, sure. But I doubt Vegeta will let you work with him.”
Trunks: “I don’t want to train with a father like him either. But I imagine that even he knows that it’s far more efficient to train through sparring than alone.”

Piccolo standing against a playful opponent doesn't mean jack. Goku was standing against 50% Freeza, Base Vegeta was against Pure Boo, Gohan against Recoome etc. The earthlings and Goku took multiple blows from the Cell Jrs, and even Cell said so.

But who says that Vegeta indeed trained with Trunks? It's possible that he did at times, but considering his character, it doesn't seem to be that much in character for him to do that, at least at that part of the series. He was also unaware of USSJ Trunks too.

All those examples you are making doesn't mean anything. Goku, Vegeta and Gohan are saiyans, we know they are much more durable than others. Apart from that, Goku was doing a lot of boosts against Final Form Frieza (his Kaioken x10, specially the Kaioken x20). Gohan didn't even last that much against Recoome, that was in the anime, in the manga they only fought for a very short time, and Recoome rapidly broke his neck, and I mention it again: saiyan durability.

The earthlings and Goku weren't standing like Piccolo. They only survived, but were still pretty much nothing. Then we have Piccolo being above that tired Goku, who simply can't be more than 50 times weaker than his full power self, nor I think he was weaker than Semi Perfect Cell, I mean, Tired Goku was able to hold his own against a tired Perfect Cell, do you really think Semi Perfect Cell can hold his own against a Tired Perfect Cell if Piccolo is equal to Semi Cell? Piccolo standing better than a tired Goku is a good feat, and given how a bit of time passed for that fight (not that much, but still even more than Recoome vs Gohan), Piccolo being able to survive is still something important to determine his power. The Cell Jrs can also easily toy with others with more than half of their strength, so again, Piccolo standing against them show that he must have been more than half of their strength, possibly like 70% of them.

Piccolo powered up that much because the plot needed him that strong. There's no plot reason for Piccolo to be anywhere near 50% Goku.

The SSJ being 50x doesn't mean much, Toriyama said he thought of SSJ as a 10x and some situations imply it's not 50x, like #20 + Z Fighters > SSJ Vegeta, Gohan > Piccolo > Goten ~ 18 despite Gohan >= Goten, arguably the Kili thing, Base Gotenks being >> SSJ2s but not far above SSJ3 Goku, etc. Base Saiyans > Freeza is contradictory as BoGs implies Goku is the strongest, what also leads us to Freeza > Base Gotenks, and FnF has the weakest Gohan >>> Piccolo in base.

But he still powered up nonetheless. Toriyama said he wanted SSJ to be 10x, but then that just wasn't the case. Even in Super we have Zamasu saying that Goku was powering up tens of times stronger when Goku transformed into SSJ2. Android 20 didn't really know that much the strength of the fighters, he was surprised when Piccolo was defeating him after all.

As I said, it's impossible for Base Gohan to be stronger than Piccolo from Buu arc. I don't know where you're getting that idea from. I don't think Gohan is stronger than Android 18 either, but at least him being stronger than her is more belivable than him being stronger than Piccolo. Goten is also not equal to Android 18 in base, they are way weaker than her, they were not able to damage her at all as Android 18 was holding back in that tournament. The kilis are just representations of how strong is a character in comparison to the other, as well as the possibility of Goku holding back when his 3000 kilis was displayed.

As for the fusions, considering they are fusions, it's possible that their multipliers are different, that's why. BOG implies Goku is the strongest non fusion character, that's how it seems to be, and Gohan in base being above Piccolo is just nothing but silly writing from Super (let's face it, that arc has a lot of contradictions when comparing to everything else that comes before or after).

I don't think Freeza > Base Saiyans works because it flies on the face of what was established back on Z. O Kn the BPs it's even worse because it puts a weirdly low cap on the Cell Arc gaps. It's pretty hard to fit #19 lower than 2x Vegeta, but he's still able to push him back several feets and make him bleed. My lists end with FPSSJs being 50x the twins and i actually have to lowball the gaps.

Nothing was established on Z that makes the base saiyans being stronger than Frieza at all, that's just you making your own ideas. I did make my list with base saiyans being weaker than Frieza, and while I had problems in the beggining, it did work in the end just fine. Maybe something is wrong with your list (and mine's too, I won't say I'm the perfect one because I am not), but Base Goku (BOG) being below Frieza is not contradictory at all, the statement is indeed there for a reason.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Well, for me none of the statements you brought proves the otherwise (Base Saiyans > Freeza)

What about Super contradicting their own statement with Base Gohan being stronger than Piccolo in FnF then?

No, you're just changing his words to your own interpreation, "if nobody becomes a Super Saiyan" is the key phrase here, he's not talking about Piccolo or #18, but Goten, Trunks, Gohan and Goku.

He still says at the end his superior position doesn't change, so even though i changed the words the value stills the same. Even if he's only comparing himself to his Saiyan fellows, that means he's not concerned about the non saiyans at all. Vegeta should be aware that at least Piccolo is entering.

No it doesn't, you're saying Base Kid Gohan at Cell games was strong that #18 and Piccolo (after RoSaT) is pretty much a flawed logic. Gohan sure has surpassed Trunks, who had improved a lot after training twice in the RoSaT, but he didn't defeat the future androids who were weaker than their present counterparts on his Base form, neither Cell. There's no way Base Gohan was stronger than SSJ Trunks.

Well, of course he isn't stronger than SSJ Trunks unless SSJ multipler is like <2x what i doubt. What's your point?

Btw, it's possible Trunks just went SSJ against the twins to go with overkill. I don't necessarily agree with that, but it's possible.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

They specifically said they cannot win without going Super Saiyan, meaning they're not even close to her as Base. Also I take Daizenshuu statement as after Might Mask turn into SSJ against #18.

And Trunks repeats himself after turning Super Saiyan, saying the costume is holding them back:
Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P9.6
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”

The Daizenshuu couldn't be refering to SSJ Trunks vs #18 as they never fought: #18 only barely dodged a Ki Blast that almost took her for a ride. That doesn't seems an even fight at all.
Base Trunks vs #18, on the other hand, looks more like a even battle. They exchanged blows evenly, with Trunks on the defensive due to his handicapp.

For me is not really a matter of numbers: I don't see how the Saiyans could have managed to be stronger than the androids at Base while training in the RoSaT, nor Piccolo who could possibly be at the same level as Semi Perfect Cell.

I don't think this is an issue. Pretty much every fight from Kamiccolo vs Imperfect Cell to Perfect Cell vs Vegeta is a stomp, widening the gap enough to make the Saiyans hella powerful. The implications from the Boo Arc also outweight fan interpretations of the Saiyan's progress troughout the series.

Even if you say they did it after: it doesn't make sense, cause Vegeta was the only who trained and possibly not harsh as he used to be, Goku was dead, which motivation he had? So seven years in a gravity chamber not efficient as the RoSaT made him get such huge gains? I don't buy it.

That argument is flawed unless you're trying to tell me Boo Arc Vegeta >= CG Vegeta. Vegeta did say he's gonna quit training, but he's shown training and even shows confidence on beating a Gohan he expects to be only rusty on skills.

I don't think Vegeta was taking into account Android 18 and Piccolo when saying that statement. I'm pretty sure he was comparing to all the saiyans. They were all indeed talking only about the saiyans when they meant about that statement.

Like i said above, Vegeta only comparing himself to his Saiyan fellows still implies he's > #18 and Piccolo, as he's not concerned about non saiyans beating him at all.

But who says that Vegeta indeed trained with Trunks? It's possible that he did at times, but considering his character, it doesn't seem to be that much in character for him to do that, at least at that part of the series. He was also unaware of USSJ Trunks too.

Trunks was never contradicted though. You're assumptions by saying they didn't spar. Even if they didn't spar all the time, that's still better than training all alone like Piccolo did.

All those examples you are making doesn't mean anything. Goku, Vegeta and Gohan are saiyans, we know they are much more durable than others. Apart from that, Goku was doing a lot of boosts against Final Form Frieza (his Kaioken x10, specially the Kaioken x20). Gohan didn't even last that much against Recoome, that was in the anime, in the manga they only fought for a very short time, and Recoome rapidly broke his neck, and I mention it again: saiyan durability.

Namekians are durable too, Piccolo tanked a Super Kamehameha on the 23rd Budokai, Nail stood for almost all of his fight with Freeza, Piccolo was standing and had energy to fire a blast after getting stomped by 3rd form Freeza and Piccolo was alive after he got beaten up, wasted all his energy on a blast and got his neck snapped.

The earthlings and Goku weren't standing like Piccolo. They only survived, but were still pretty much nothing. Then we have Piccolo being above that tired Goku, who simply can't be more than 50 times weaker than his full power self, nor I think he was weaker than Semi Perfect Cell, I mean, Tired Goku was able to hold his own against a tired Perfect Cell, do you really think Semi Perfect Cell can hold his own against a Tired Perfect Cell if Piccolo is equal to Semi Cell? Piccolo standing better than a tired Goku is a good feat, and given how a bit of time passed for that fight (not that much, but still even more than Recoome vs Gohan), Piccolo being able to survive is still something important to determine his power. The Cell Jrs can also easily toy with others with more than half of their strength, so again, Piccolo standing against them show that he must have been more than half of their strength, possibly like 70% of them.

Saying Tired Goku > Semi Perfect Cell is pure conjecture. All we know is that he's so weak he couldn't even defend himself, but wasn't put to sleep like the earthlings.

And Gohan vs Recoome was longer than Cell Jrs vs Z Fighters btw. Gohan fought Recoome for several pages, whereas between Cell telling the Jrs to get serious and Gohan snapping only two or three pages passed.

But he still powered up nonetheless. Toriyama said he wanted SSJ to be 10x, but then that just wasn't the case. Even in Super we have Zamasu saying that Goku was powering up tens of times stronger when Goku transformed into SSJ2. Android 20 didn't really know that much the strength of the fighters, he was surprised when Piccolo was defeating him after all.

As I said, it's impossible for Base Gohan to be stronger than Piccolo from Buu arc. I don't know where you're getting that idea from. I don't think Gohan is stronger than Android 18 either, but at least him being stronger than her is more belivable than him being stronger than Piccolo. Goten is also not equal to Android 18 in base, they are way weaker than her, they were not able to damage her at all as Android 18 was holding back in that tournament. The kilis are just representations of how strong is a character in comparison to the other, as well as the possibility of Goku holding back when his 3000 kilis was displayed.

#20 only wasn't aware of Piccolo's strength because he was suppressed. There's no reason to assume he was wrong about the earthlings, considering he knew Yamcha was a good source.

Gohan is implied to be stronger than both Piccolo and #18 as he wants to win but suggests fighting in base, so it's pretty pausible.

If #18 was holding back, why doesn't she power up and one shot the boys out of the ring? She doesn't wanna fight, she only wants the money.

As for the fusions, considering they are fusions, it's possible that their multipliers are different, that's why. BOG implies Goku is the strongest non fusion character, that's how it seems to be, and Gohan in base being above Piccolo is just nothing but silly writing from Super (let's face it, that arc has a lot of contradictions when comparing to everything else that comes before or after).

Base Gotenks is > SSJ3 Goku though. Goku being stronger than Gotenks (And by consequence, surpassing his former SSJ3 self) but weaker than Freeza is self contradictory.

If Gohan > Piccolo is silly writting, so could be Freeza > Goku, especially when the later contradicts Goku > Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku.

Nothing was established on Z that makes the base saiyans being stronger than Frieza at all, that's just you making your own ideas. I did make my list with base saiyans being weaker than Frieza, and while I had problems in the beggining, it did work in the end just fine. Maybe something is wrong with your list (and mine's too, I won't say I'm the perfect one because I am not), but Base Goku (BOG) being below Frieza is not contradictory at all, the statement is indeed there for a reason.

It's clearly contradictory as based as beings who dwarf Freeza (#18, Shin, Piccolo, etc) are in awe and implied to be inferior to the Base Saiyans. The statement is there as a retcon on just a contradiction ala Zenkai Goku being the 1st foe to surpass Freeza, beating Freeza being a SSJ only feat despite Piccolo being > Debut Trunks, etc.

[Olympian]

Odd, Yamcha was also surpressed and Gero made the Goku reading of him.

[Noah]

snip

Well, that Gohan became rusty after having become 'Ultimate' before, nothing indicates he was back to his former self in early Boo arc, so I see no problem with something like: SSJ Gohan > Gotenks > Base Gohan > Piccolo

It means he is not concerned cause he's capable to find a way to overcome that difference, like Hugo Boss addressed: "there was no guarantee they wouldn’t become Super Saiyan if needed"

My point is that you addressed that the Saiyans already surpassed the androids on their Base forms in the Cell arc, which I disagree cause then I don't see the need of Future Trunks transforming to kill the androids and Cell. I think using SSJ in the Boo arc against Namek Freeza could be labbelled as overkill, but they would still need it in order to finish him quickly.

They still required SSJ in order to win the match. 18 was only worried about the fight when they transformed and fired a Ki Blast. She never show to be in danger against their base power.

Even so, like with most fighters, 18 is able to gauge her opponent's power and adapt to it. Daizenshuu could also be referencing to her adapted strenght.

Yes, it is. Stating that Base Saiyans are stronger than Semi Perfect Cell means they could beat Perfect Cell without SSJ2 and that doesn't fit from a standard point that Gohan was using SSJ2 against Dabura (stated to be strong as Cell)

I didn't said Vegeta was equal to his former Cell Games self, so no straw man argument, please. Vegeta indeed got strong, he unlocked SSJ2 at that time, my whole point is that he didn't got stronger than the androids and Piccolo neither before or after the Cell Games.

[dragonball0900]

Like i said above, Vegeta only comparing himself to his Saiyan fellows still implies he's > #18 and Piccolo, as he's not concerned about non saiyans beating him at all.

Why does it have to mean that? That can be a possibility, but since it's quite firm that Piccolo is not below Base saiyans, it can easily mean that he was not concerned of his saiyan fellows, only that. They were all talking about only saiyans. I don't see why Vegeta not mentioning 18 and Piccolo means he is stronger than them.

Trunks was never contradicted though. You're assumptions by saying they didn't spar. Even if they didn't spar all the time, that's still better than training all alone like Piccolo did.

Then again, Piccolo can also have good potential based on how big his boosts were for the android arc. Yes, that's only because of plot, but if that did happen then it happened. Piccolo is indeed known to have good boosts in training and I don't see why training in the ROSAT (which is really effective) wouldn't do that to him.

Namekians are durable too, Piccolo tanked a Super Kamehameha on the 23rd Budokai, Nail stood for almost all of his fight with Freeza, Piccolo was standing and had energy to fire a blast after getting stomped by 3rd form Freeza and Piccolo was alive after he got beaten up, wasted all his energy on a blast and got his neck snapped.

Piccolo tanking that super KMHMH is just because of strength and how equal he was to Goku, obviously that kamehameha wouldn't hurt him that much. The reason Nail was standing up against Frieza is because the latter needed the information for the Dragon Balls, he was toying with him for a very good reason for the dragon balls. Unlike the Cell Jrs, while they were toying with the Z fighters, they just do it because Cell says so to keep them alive. They didn't have that much of an important reason, that is shown with the humans being on the ground sleeping.

Piccolo didn't even last against 3rd Frieza at all! The time passed more quickly than the Cell Jr fight. He later only had a short amount of energy left to help Gohan and that's it. He was later being carried by Gohan, and was on the ground until Dende healed him.

Saying Tired Goku > Semi Perfect Cell is pure conjecture. All we know is that he's so weak he couldn't even defend himself, but wasn't put to sleep like the earthlings.

And Gohan vs Recoome was longer than Cell Jrs vs Z Fighters btw. Gohan fought Recoome for several pages, whereas between Cell telling the Jrs to get serious and Gohan snapping only two or three pages passed.

I refer you to how weak was Semi Perfect Cell in comparison to ASSJ Vegeta, then how weak was ASSJ Vegeta in comparison to Initial Perfect Cell, who was weaker than SSJ Vegeta, who could fight barely with a non serious Cell Jr. Then how Tired Goku was at least able not to be put to sleep like the earthlings. The earthlings are so weak, that's why the Cell Jrs were able to knock them out. If Piccolo was Semi Perfect Cell level, then the Cell Jr he was fighting with could've use enough power to knock him out like with the earthlings, but that wasn't the case, he managed to stand up against them.

With Gohan and Recoome, I checked the pages, and it seems that the reason it took so long is because of the Ginyu and Frieza scene that was interrumpting the fight. Recoome was also toying with them until getting to the final kill, he wasn't being serious, neither the Cell Jrs. And I refer again to the saiyan durability and potential Gohan has, which is more than even Piccolo, Goku or Vegeta since Gohan is a saiyan hibrid.

#20 only wasn't aware of Piccolo's strength because he was suppressed. There's no reason to assume he was wrong about the earthlings, considering he knew Yamcha was a good source.

Gohan is implied to be stronger than both Piccolo and #18 as he wants to win but suggests fighting in base, so it's pretty pausible.

If #18 was holding back, why doesn't she power up and one shot the boys out of the ring? She doesn't wanna fight, she only wants the money.

Gero knew they have strength inside, but he didn't know how much. That's obvious since they were all suppressed. If Piccolo was, then the rest too, and even with that you assume that Gero knew exactly their strength so that he can defeat SSJ Vegeta?

Krillin did tell Android 18 not to show signs of her strength in the tournament, like kicking someone with full strength in a way that can kill them. Obviously he didn't know Goten and Trunks would be there that's why. That's also the reason why Android 18 didn't instantly defeated Mighty Mask.

Base Gotenks is > SSJ3 Goku though. Goku being stronger than Gotenks (And by consequence, surpassing his former SSJ3 self) but weaker than Freeza is self contradictory.

As they said above, there's simply no guarantee they wouldn't become SSJ if needed. In that case, they would need SSJ against foes like Android 18 or Piccolo.

If Gohan > Piccolo is silly writting, so could be Freeza > Goku, especially when the later contradicts Goku > Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku.

Yes Base Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku, but again I refer you to how Goku is the strongest non fusion character. That doesn't mean Goku was stronger than Gotenks at all. There's nothing contradictory here. But the contradictory thing is, why would Goku be stronger than Gotenks? That's impossible. That means he is stronger than his SSJ3 self which is a gigantic boost. You are making things getting a bit over the top here.

It's clearly contradictory as based as beings who dwarf Freeza (#18, Shin, Piccolo, etc) are in awe and implied to be inferior to the Base Saiyans. The statement is there as a retcon on just a contradiction ala Zenkai Goku being the 1st foe to surpass Freeza, beating Freeza being a SSJ only feat despite Piccolo being > Debut Trunks, etc.

The only one who was in awe of Base saiyans was Kaioshin, and even then, that's only because he underestimated the saiyans if they would defeat Babidi's minions. I know Frieza > Base Saiyans is a new Super thing, but so far I have seen nothing to actually contradict that statement in Z, practically nothing, and even if there are some things that do contradict like you say, they are easily justifiable.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Well, that Gohan became rusty after having become 'Ultimate' before, nothing indicates he was back to his former self in early Boo arc, so I see no problem with something like: SSJ Gohan > Gotenks > Base Gohan > Piccolo

Future Trunks said Gohan wasn't as stronger as he used to be, so that's unlikely. FnF Gohan was also unsure if he could turn SSJ, while Boo Gohan could transform just fine.

It means he is not concerned cause he's capable to find a way to overcome that difference, like Hugo Boss addressed: "there was no guarantee they wouldn’t become Super Saiyan if needed"

There's no reason to assume so though, since Vegeta agreed with the non saiyan rule. Saying he would break the rule without any evidence or whatsoever is bunky.

My point is that you addressed that the Saiyans already surpassed the androids on their Base forms in the Cell arc, which I disagree cause then I don't see the need of Future Trunks transforming to kill the androids and Cell. I think using SSJ in the Boo arc against Namek Freeza could be labbelled as overkill, but they would still need it in order to finish him quickly.

SSJ Trunks was much weaker than the likes of the Boo Arc Super Saiyans though.

And i don't think you got the overkill point: Base Trunks going SSJ doesn't necessarily means he needs SSJ, it's possible he just wanted to play safe and do his best.

They still required SSJ in order to win the match. 18 was only worried about the fight when they transformed and fired a Ki Blast. She never show to be in danger against their base power.

Again, that's because of the suit. I'm not saying they could have stomped her in base without the suit, but they are on the same tier overall. Probably equals.

Even so, like with most fighters, 18 is able to gauge her opponent's power and adapt to it. Daizenshuu could also be referencing to her adapted strenght.

Why doesn't she adjust her strength and one shots them out of the ring? #18 isn't interested on fighting, as evidenced by her one shoting Jewel before fighting Mighty Mask.

Yes, it is. Stating that Base Saiyans are stronger than Semi Perfect Cell means they could beat Perfect Cell without SSJ2 and that doesn't fit from a standard point that Gohan was using SSJ2 against Dabura (stated to be strong as Cell)

That's fully conjecture. Being Semi Cell level doesn't mean they're gonna be > FP Cell level when they turn SSJs.

I didn't said Vegeta was equal to his former Cell Games self, so no straw man argument, please. Vegeta indeed got strong, he unlocked SSJ2 at that time, my whole point is that he didn't got stronger than the androids and Piccolo neither before or after the Cell Games.

Sorry, i wasn't trying to create a straw man, but your argument consistend on Vegeta having no motivation to train heavy, what's contradicted by his gains as a SSJ and him unlocking SSJ2. There's nothing holding back the possibility of Vegeta being stronger than Piccolo/18.

Why does it have to mean that? That can be a possibility, but since it's quite firm that Piccolo is not below Base saiyans, it can easily mean that he was not concerned of his saiyan fellows, only that. They were all talking about only saiyans. I don't see why Vegeta not mentioning 18 and Piccolo means he is stronger than them.

Why it's quite firm? We only know three things about Cell Games Piccolo:
1) He thinks Semi Cell is an unrecheable power.
2) He's nowhere near 50% Goku nor Vegeta and Trunks.
3) Although he's standing, he cannot fight the Cell Jrs.
And other three things about Boo Arc Piccolo:
1) Gohan and Vegeta have no issue with fighting him in base
2) He's weaker than Kaioshin, who's weaker than Babidi's goons (Implied by both Shin and Babidi)
3) He's trash compared to the Base Saiyans, who are marvelous energy.

Nothing implies Post Rosat Piccolo is stronger than Base Saiyans at all. Even Super implies Piccolo is weaker than Base Saiyans when Tagoma says Gohan is the most dangerous Z Fighter without knowing he's able to transform.

Vegeta not considering #18 nor Piccolo's just sounds dumb. It's not like he thinks the tournament is going to be saiyans only.

Then again, Piccolo can also have good potential based on how big his boosts were for the android arc. Yes, that's only because of plot, but if that did happen then it happened. Piccolo is indeed known to have good boosts in training and I don't see why training in the ROSAT (which is really effective) wouldn't do that to him.

Piccolo sparred with a Super Saiyan during the three years, so of course his gains would be that high. The only other time he got insanely stronger was at Kaio's, which is clearly an exception to the rule. Piccolo gained more in a week than Goku in 5 months or so.

Piccolo tanking that super KMHMH is just because of strength and how equal he was to Goku, obviously that kamehameha wouldn't hurt him that much. The reason Nail was standing up against Frieza is because the latter needed the information for the Dragon Balls, he was toying with him for a very good reason for the dragon balls. Unlike the Cell Jrs, while they were toying with the Z fighters, they just do it because Cell says so to keep them alive. They didn't have that much of an important reason, that is shown with the humans being on the ground sleeping.

Piccolo didn't even last against 3rd Frieza at all! The time passed more quickly than the Cell Jr fight. He later only had a short amount of energy left to help Gohan and that's it. He was later being carried by Gohan, and was on the ground until Dende healed him.

The Kamehameha by itself was already a big deal, a Super Kamehameha should be way more stronger than the average Kamehameha.

Nail standing against Freeza is the same reason Piccolo could stand against the Jrs. Cell never told his Jrs to not kill them, they were holding back because they wanted to.

I refer you to how weak was Semi Perfect Cell in comparison to ASSJ Vegeta, then how weak was ASSJ Vegeta in comparison to Initial Perfect Cell, who was weaker than SSJ Vegeta, who could fight barely with a non serious Cell Jr. Then how Tired Goku was at least able not to be put to sleep like the earthlings. The earthlings are so weak, that's why the Cell Jrs were able to knock them out. If Piccolo was Semi Perfect Cell level, then the Cell Jr he was fighting with could've use enough power to knock him out like with the earthlings, but that wasn't the case, he managed to stand up against them.

With Gohan and Recoome, I checked the pages, and it seems that the reason it took so long is because of the Ginyu and Frieza scene that was interrumpting the fight. Recoome was also toying with them until getting to the final kill, he wasn't being serious, neither the Cell Jrs. And I refer again to the saiyan durability and potential Gohan has, which is more than even Piccolo, Goku or Vegeta since Gohan is a saiyan hibrid.

The premisse about Tired Goku is that he has absolutely nothing in the tank. He could be like Freeza level for all we know, the only sure thing is that he's > Earthlings.

The Cell Jr didn't put Piccolo down because he didn't want to. It was only three pages long, definitely less than whatever pages Gohan fought Recoome (I think it was 6 or so?). Durability could be a factor here, but Gohan being a kid (Thus not having the same resilience as an adult) and Piccolo being durable as hell too nullifies the saiyan durability. It's possible Piccolo was just put down like Goku but got back on his feet too. Goku's much weaker than the Jrs and wasn't instantly put to sleep either.

Gero knew they have strength inside, but he didn't know how much. That's obvious since they were all suppressed. If Piccolo was, then the rest too, and even with that you assume that Gero knew exactly their strength so that he can defeat SSJ Vegeta?

It was stated that Piccolo was suppressed, but no note was made about the earthlings.

Krillin did tell Android 18 not to show signs of her strength in the tournament, like kicking someone with full strength in a way that can kill them. Obviously he didn't know Goten and Trunks would be there that's why. That's also the reason why Android 18 didn't instantly defeated Mighty Mask.

That's not enough to prove she was suppressed during the whole fight though. #18 can gauge Mighty Mask's strength by his movements and just one shot him. Instead, she's locked in combat with him and gets almost all of her hits blocked.

Yes Base Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku, but again I refer you to how Goku is the strongest non fusion character. That doesn't mean Goku was stronger than Gotenks at all. There's nothing contradictory here. But the contradictory thing is, why would Goku be stronger than Gotenks? That's impossible. That means he is stronger than his SSJ3 self which is a gigantic boost. You are making things getting a bit over the top here.

Super follow the Anime, which has Pure Boo being the strongest Boo. Vegeta also says Goku turned into the #1, Beerus says none of the Z Fighters were as entertaining as Goku, everybody is suppressed Goku was two shoted, etc. Goku's the strongest Z Fighter by BoGs.

The only one who was in awe of Base saiyans was Kaioshin, and even then, that's only because he underestimated the saiyans if they would defeat Babidi's minions. I know Frieza > Base Saiyans is a new Super thing, but so far I have seen nothing to actually contradict that statement in Z, practically nothing, and even if there are some things that do contradict like you say, they are easily justifiable.

I actually poorly worded myself back them. I was going to say they (#18, Shin, Piccolo) were portrayed as weaker than the Base Saiyans.

I don't see how the Z implications doesn't outweight Super's. Of course, it wasn't a direct statement, but they were several implications and even a feat (Trunks vs #18) which is really hard to justify IMO.

[Dragon Ball Gus]

Kefla vs Champa

[Noah]

New match:

- Super Vegeta (Cell Games) vs. Shin (Boo arc)

snip

Future Trunks could also be referring to Gohan being out of shape at first look. As I don't think Gohan walks around fully powered on his Base.

Yes, there is. Goten and Trunks broke that rule before them and no one really cared about it, is not like Vegeta couldn't do it either.

Weaker or not, they didn't become several times stronger than Trunks who still required to transform to kill the androids. I don't buy your "overkill theory" he just used the power he knew it would be necessary to kill them.

Because she felt something off about Might Mask, I don't see the problem with she wanting to know who has behind the disguise and admitted playtime was over when they become SSJ.

Yes, it means as I don't see Cell getting one hundred times stronger after becoming Perfect, that's just overflowed. Going by your logic SSJ2 Kid Gohan would just sneeze and kill Cell (either as Perfect or Semi Perfect)

I also didn't said he had no motivation at all, but less than when Goku was alive for sure. Vegeta got strong, but in seven years he couldn't surpass the power Gohan had in the Cell Games like Goku in the Afterlife done it, that's why he relied on Babidi to close that gap. As there's nothing holding back the possibility (later confirmed in BoG and Super) of Vegeta being weaker than Piccolo/18.

[ZombieVito]

Kefla vs Champa

Considering SSB Vegetto ~ Beerus and Kale's SS form couldn't even touch a tired SSG Goku. Kefla's at max power should be SSG Vegetto tier at best.

Champa one shots her.