[/spoiler]
Absolutely beautiful post. And exactly how I feel.GohanHiddenPowers wrote:Boring. I will always like Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, Freeza, etc, they are part of Dragon Ball (but I also do not like some other characters, for sure). But people don't call DBS the Vegita and Goku's show for no reason. And i think that's because not every anime needs to have this forced rivalry, this shonen trope of nowadays, where the duo always has to finishe the job. This is done in a forced way nowadays, especially if we're talking about the animes of the 80s and 90s. The only famous character from DBZ who had his moments to shine, side by side with Goku and Vegeta, was Future Trunks. I won't even talk about 17, because the level of favouritism that some producers have about him, right now, is obvious, at least for me. Gohan could easily keep going with his dad, in his own rythm, balancing his studies and his need to keep being strong to protect the earth, his family, the live beings. Something like he needs to train because of his health as a hybrid. I could say that this decision to turn Gohan into a idle character is way pattetic, throwing away his potential to be a powerful character alongside Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, and even more powerful if he wanted, not only being a suporting character in this ToP, after at least some decent training.
[spoiler]
This line was so DBZ. With the proper merits of some good animations, but with the development of certain returns being debatable at least, and with DBS ending or entering into a "hiatus" for now, we can say that DBZ (with its movies, ovas) still reigns supreme in the franchise of Dragon Ball as a whole.
They did Gohan wrong by bringing him back for this tournament after he had gone into a comfortable retirement that neatly tied up his character. Even though Vegeta can be dull and repetitive at times, his still been nowhere near as boring as Gohan has been since his "resurgence". Toriyama did the right thing in placing him on the shelf for Goku and Vegeta, since as of his revival his never failed in being more dull and boring than either of them.ZenkaiBoosts wrote:Absolutely beautiful post. And exactly how I feel.GohanHiddenPowers wrote:Boring. I will always like Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, Freeza, etc, they are part of Dragon Ball (but I also do not like some other characters, for sure). But people don't call DBS the Vegita and Goku's show for no reason. And i think that's because not every anime needs to have this forced rivalry, this shonen trope of nowadays, where the duo always has to finishe the job. This is done in a forced way nowadays, especially if we're talking about the animes of the 80s and 90s. The only famous character from DBZ who had his moments to shine, side by side with Goku and Vegeta, was Future Trunks. I won't even talk about 17, because the level of favouritism that some producers have about him, right now, is obvious, at least for me. Gohan could easily keep going with his dad, in his own rythm, balancing his studies and his need to keep being strong to protect the earth, his family, the live beings. Something like he needs to train because of his health as a hybrid. I could say that this decision to turn Gohan into a idle character is way pattetic, throwing away his potential to be a powerful character alongside Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, and even more powerful if he wanted, not only being a suporting character in this ToP, after at least some decent training.
[spoiler]
This line was so DBZ. With the proper merits of some good animations, but with the development of certain returns being debatable at least, and with DBS ending or entering into a "hiatus" for now, we can say that DBZ (with its movies, ovas) still reigns supreme in the franchise of Dragon Ball as a whole.
Gohan going SS2 and defeating Cell is still one of the greatest moments in Anime history
Gohan deserved much better in Super
I mean, already in DBZ, we had "nerd Gohan" and "the great Sayiaman" YET that never before stopped Gohan from still getting his training in - and staying relevant in power
In fact Gohan at the end of Z was the most powerful non fused character yet in Super he was rendered a total joke against Frieza off the bat.
That was shameful. Nothing excuses that level of sickening shame.
Super completely did Gohan wrong.
And what's even more disgusting is that they gave all that shine to Vegeta instead.
You have to ask what the hell happened with Super? You had Vegeta getting even more shine then Goku the MAIN character. You even had 17 lasting longer then Gohan too.
Were there some writers on Super who were just complete Vegeta fanboys and Android 17 fanboys wo had blackmail on everyone at Toei? Nothing explains it IMO.
And if you remember, Vegeta at the end of DBZ accepted his role as secondary to Goku. So Super completely squandered Vegeta's character growth. So anyone who says that Super was a logically continuation after DBZ is completely wrong. Never mind that Gohan at the end of Z was the strongest non fused character too
This is insanely hypocritical (you yourself even state you're biased).Kanious wrote:i NEVER saw Gohan as a major character at all [i saw Gohan as a supporting character, like Bulma, Krilin and others], so... i never noticed this [maybe because i hate Gohan and i love Vegeta?]. Anyway, i like how Super made Gohan consistent, stopped giving him nonsensical powerups out of nowhere, and gave Vegeta major character development.
I really understand that you don't like vegeta.But where are you getting that toyotaro is a vegeta fanboy from when he has said that goku is his favourite character.ZenkaiBoosts wrote:This said it best
"""""As for the OP's point, I never liked it. As Doctor. said Vegeta's story came full circle back in Z and hasn't been particularly interesting since. This arc is a good example of that, actually. The way they've written him in the tournament proper has been downright awful, with his inclusion in the finale feeling outright forced after zero setup. He had some nice moments in the Trunks arc but they've since squandered that""""
I've always said that the WORST thing about Super was the fact it was sooo obnoxiously Vegeta centric.
Not only did Vegeta get shine at the EXPENSE of other secondary characters, which is not cool, Vegeta at times got even more shine then the main character Goku, which IS UNACCEPTABLE
I mean seriously WTF? Was one of the writers at Toei a compete Vegeta fanboy shill? Is it the fault of that Vegeta fanboy Toyotaro? What could've happened that lead to this? It makes no sense. Vegeta never had a large following. So the fact they decided to make Vegeta the main charcater in Super is just mind boggling.
Giving Goku a rival who pushes Goku, doesnt mean "give Vegeta more shine then Goku, and always have Goku and Vegeta artificially be equals"
Thats what was easily the WORST thing about Super
As others said, the fact that at the end of DBZ, the charcater of Vegeta finally accepted that Goku was better, came to terms with it, and could simply be at peace with it, WAS some of the best character growth in an anime ever. Super completely SQUANDERED all that. Ruined Vegeta's character growth. It hurts even more that Super never did anything interesting with Vegeta
For every 3 great things Super did, there was 1 truly awful thing Super did.
IMO the 3 biggest crimes that Super committed that were just awful
-nerfing Goku for 2/3 of Super
-being too Vegeta centric
-eliminating Gohan so early. We never got to see Goku and adult Gohan fighting side by side as father and son. We never got to see how Jiren and Gohan would react to each other. Jiren was upset at Vegeta because Vegeta doesnt fight for righteous reasons. Well, Gohan does fight for righteous reasons SO IT WOULD have been very interesting to see how Jiren would've reacted to Gohan
Yet instead of interesting story telling like THAT ^ we get Vegeta asspull city
Super has made me absolutely sick of Vegeta, and now I actually WANT Vegeta to die off now.
Vegeta getting all this shine was just the worst.
All that Vegeta screen time should've been used on beefing up Gohan as a viable fighter and setting up a new Gohan transformation.
The poll from Dragon Ball Forever give Goku the first place and Vegeta the second place and it was way before BOG/FNF/DBSUPER.ZenkaiBoosts wrote:"Vegeta in the Super anime has tons of absolutely humiliating defeats against opponents Goku then proceeds to perform better than Vegeta against."
Exactly as it should be. Goku is the main character. NOT Vegeta
But here's a very alarming disturbing stat
Goku has had no legit big wins in Super yet
Meanwhile they gave Vegeta an asspull so that Vegeta could get a win over a god of destruction
Where is Goku's big win that surpasses THAT?
WHERE??
Thats pure insanity. Again Goku is the main character. NOT Vegeta. Makes me sick
I like to say that i'm not a conformist with the way they choosed for Gohan, in Super. And i think that while i like these characters that i named, i also don't like the obvious favouritism for the sake of some shonen tropes of nowadays. We can't even say that Vegeta is a anti-hero anymore, he is just there to sell merchandises. Well, Gohan is popular too, he sells in Japan and beyond Japan, especially if you look at Europe, and South America. Look at DB FighterZ. Look at the fanbase. Just like the rest of the DB fandom, but being one of the top 4 fanbases, the Gohan fanbase always do some nice works, from videos, fanarts, fan animations, etc. Even some works that people like to mock, and i'm perfectly fine with that, since i'm politically incorrect, and i mock other characters too. It's funnyZenkaiBoosts wrote:Absolutely beautiful post. And exactly how I feel.GohanHiddenPowers wrote:Boring. I will always like Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, Freeza, etc, they are part of Dragon Ball (but I also do not like some other characters, for sure). But people don't call DBS the Vegita and Goku's show for no reason. And i think that's because not every anime needs to have this forced rivalry, this shonen trope of nowadays, where the duo always has to finishe the job. This is done in a forced way nowadays, especially if we're talking about the animes of the 80s and 90s. The only famous character from DBZ who had his moments to shine, side by side with Goku and Vegeta, was Future Trunks. I won't even talk about 17, because the level of favouritism that some producers have about him, right now, is obvious, at least for me. Gohan could easily keep going with his dad, in his own rythm, balancing his studies and his need to keep being strong to protect the earth, his family, the live beings. Something like he needs to train because of his health as a hybrid. I could say that this decision to turn Gohan into a idle character is way pattetic, throwing away his potential to be a powerful character alongside Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, and even more powerful if he wanted, not only being a suporting character in this ToP, after at least some decent training.
[spoiler]
This line was so DBZ. With the proper merits of some good animations, but with the development of certain returns being debatable at least, and with DBS ending or entering into a "hiatus" for now, we can say that DBZ (with its movies, ovas) still reigns supreme in the franchise of Dragon Ball as a whole.
Gohan going SS2 and defeating Cell is still one of the greatest moments in Anime history
Gohan deserved much better in Super
I mean, already in DBZ, we had "nerd Gohan" and "the great Sayiaman" YET that never before stopped Gohan from still getting his training in - and staying relevant in power
In fact Gohan at the end of Z was the most powerful non fused character yet in Super he was rendered a total joke against Frieza off the bat.
That was shameful. Nothing excuses that level of sickening shame.
Super completely did Gohan wrong.
And what's even more disgusting is that they gave all that shine to Vegeta instead.
You have to ask what the hell happened with Super? You had Vegeta getting even more shine then Goku the MAIN character. You even had 17 lasting longer then Gohan too.
Were there some writers on Super who were just complete Vegeta fanboys and Android 17 fanboys wo had blackmail on everyone at Toei? Nothing explains it IMO.
And if you remember, Vegeta at the end of DBZ accepted his role as secondary to Goku. So Super completely squandered Vegeta's character growth. So anyone who says that Super was a logically continuation after DBZ is completely wrong. Never mind that Gohan at the end of Z was the strongest non fused character too
. It's just hard to see some people mocking DB AF (which was fanmade), and fanarts with Goku/Vegeta super saiyan 5, 6, 7, 8, 9... ad infinitum. Well, we can say that it's just a matter of crowds.Hawk9211 wrote:I really understand that you don't like vegeta.But where are you getting that toyotaro is a vegeta fanboy from when he has said that goku is his favourite character.ZenkaiBoosts wrote:This said it best
"""""As for the OP's point, I never liked it. As Doctor. said Vegeta's story came full circle back in Z and hasn't been particularly interesting since. This arc is a good example of that, actually. The way they've written him in the tournament proper has been downright awful, with his inclusion in the finale feeling outright forced after zero setup. He had some nice moments in the Trunks arc but they've since squandered that""""
I've always said that the WORST thing about Super was the fact it was sooo obnoxiously Vegeta centric.
Not only did Vegeta get shine at the EXPENSE of other secondary characters, which is not cool, Vegeta at times got even more shine then the main character Goku, which IS UNACCEPTABLE
I mean seriously WTF? Was one of the writers at Toei a compete Vegeta fanboy shill? Is it the fault of that Vegeta fanboy Toyotaro? What could've happened that lead to this? It makes no sense. Vegeta never had a large following. So the fact they decided to make Vegeta the main charcater in Super is just mind boggling.
Giving Goku a rival who pushes Goku, doesnt mean "give Vegeta more shine then Goku, and always have Goku and Vegeta artificially be equals"
Thats what was easily the WORST thing about Super
As others said, the fact that at the end of DBZ, the charcater of Vegeta finally accepted that Goku was better, came to terms with it, and could simply be at peace with it, WAS some of the best character growth in an anime ever. Super completely SQUANDERED all that. Ruined Vegeta's character growth. It hurts even more that Super never did anything interesting with Vegeta
For every 3 great things Super did, there was 1 truly awful thing Super did.
IMO the 3 biggest crimes that Super committed that were just awful
-nerfing Goku for 2/3 of Super
-being too Vegeta centric
-eliminating Gohan so early. We never got to see Goku and adult Gohan fighting side by side as father and son. We never got to see how Jiren and Gohan would react to each other. Jiren was upset at Vegeta because Vegeta doesnt fight for righteous reasons. Well, Gohan does fight for righteous reasons SO IT WOULD have been very interesting to see how Jiren would've reacted to Gohan
Yet instead of interesting story telling like THAT ^ we get Vegeta asspull city
Super has made me absolutely sick of Vegeta, and now I actually WANT Vegeta to die off now.
Vegeta getting all this shine was just the worst.
All that Vegeta screen time should've been used on beefing up Gohan as a viable fighter and setting up a new Gohan transformation.
Goku getting hakai and full powered ssb when vegeta was the one training in time chamber in manga is one of most largely disliked thing by some fans(not just vegeta fanboys).
Like it or not vegeta is the second main character and him momentarily outshining goku is not bad when goku outshines him at the end.I mean him being always behind goku is plain boring.
Vegeta is the second most popular character of franchise.One of biggest fans of gohan were actually fans of the strongest character when he didn't remain that they moved on to the next strongest one.
You may not know that but toriyama himself had changed the ending of manga and added I will surpass you kakkarot.I guess toriyama is a vegeta fan too.
And what do you expect toriyama to be more involved with anime or manga?Toriyama himself is a mangaka so he will be more involved with a manga.Where are you getting toyotaro steering away from toriyamas canon points when toriyama himself has said that toyotaro sticks way too closely to his own work.Just for example,in black arc trunks was not supposed to be such a big player,black and zamasu were much weaker and their fusion was supposed to be defeated by a team up of ssb vegeta and goku.And guess who deviated more from canon script?Who is giving asspull power ups to vegeta?
Tl dr:You are just biased and angry that a character you hate gets more shine than characters you like.
But Super isn't better then GT because of Vegeta. Super is better in spite of Vegeta IMOTheShadowEmperor8055 wrote:I don't mind the move with Vegeta as the deuteragonist of Super (Was Gohan ever a deuteragonist? I honestly felt it just shifted from Goku to Gohan and then back to Goku as the protagonist). Family man Vegeta is great to watch, to tell you the truth. Him getting his major win against Toppo was nice (even if it wasn't executed all that well).
However, I will admit as of late, Vegeta has been flanderized to an extent in the ToP, just like Goku had been flanderized around the beginning of the show. They just take his assholish character from the Freeza and Cell arcs and inject it into the ToP. Him not contributing to the Spirit Bomb wasn't out of character to me, but considering even Freeza contributed to it, it just made Vegeta look really dumb in all honesty.
I'm not one that feels family man Vegeta is needed in every pressing moment for Vegeta in the arc, but to have it thrown away (until the recent episode) completely was a bit off-putting. Vegeta being unable to surpass SS3 Goku until Bulma gets slapped, and then he finally does. The battle against Zamasu was personal for Vegeta because Zamasu was messing with Vegeta's family. Or Vegeta simply deciding not to leave Bulma's side when she was pregnant.
His interaction with Cabba in the U6 arc was nice, but it's a bit overdone in the ToP because again, it's like he's being written differently with all of that family man development suddenly disappearing.
Aside from those nitpicks, I still find the Goku and Vegeta show (Super) to be a bit more enjoyable than the Goku show (GT).
You pretty much summarised my thoughts. I like the idea of having a secondary protagonist and for a long time, Vegeta worked really well in that department. I think it's a combination of the way the current arc built up Gohan as the secondary protagonist for most of the story and how poor a lot of the writing for Vegeta has been since then that's soured me on him. He was a big part of the U6 and Future Trunks arc all throughout, in the ToP it felt like he was in the background until most of it, and has only just now started getting all these big moments to compensate.TheShadowEmperor8055 wrote:I don't mind the move with Vegeta as the deuteragonist of Super (Was Gohan ever a deuteragonist? I honestly felt it just shifted from Goku to Gohan and then back to Goku as the protagonist). Family man Vegeta is great to watch, to tell you the truth. Him getting his major win against Toppo was nice (even if it wasn't executed all that well).
However, I will admit as of late, Vegeta has been flanderized to an extent in the ToP, just like Goku had been flanderized around the beginning of the show. They just take his assholish character from the Freeza and Cell arcs and inject it into the ToP. Him not contributing to the Spirit Bomb wasn't out of character to me, but considering even Freeza contributed to it, it just made Vegeta look really dumb in all honesty.
I'm not one that feels family man Vegeta is needed in every pressing moment for Vegeta in the arc, but to have it thrown away (until the recent episode) completely was a bit off-putting. Vegeta being unable to surpass SS3 Goku until Bulma gets slapped, and then he finally does. The battle against Zamasu was personal for Vegeta because Zamasu was messing with Vegeta's family. Or Vegeta simply deciding not to leave Bulma's side when she was pregnant.
His interaction with Cabba in the U6 arc was nice, but it's a bit overdone in the ToP because again, it's like he's being written differently with all of that family man development suddenly disappearing.
Aside from those nitpicks, I still find the Goku and Vegeta show (Super) to be a bit more enjoyable than the Goku show (GT).
Gohan didn't do much on Namek compared to Vegeta who took down Freeza's 3 main men, helped Goku take down the Ginyus and was the 2nd strongest character after Goku.precita wrote:Gohan gets much more focus than Vegeta for most of DBZ.
First of all,goku is one of my favourite characters I am one of "Goku is and should be main character" guys.ZenkaiBoosts wrote: Whether you like it or not, Goku is and always has been the MIAN charcater of Dragon Ball. Vegeta is not the main character.
You want to know what's really boring?
Having Goku and Vegeta always artificially being made equals throughout Super because "forced rival plot"
Thats boring
What's boring is the fact that Goku hasn't gotten 1 clean big win in Super yet
Obviously you are happy with the overt proVegeta bias through out Super because you love Vegeta..but you are in the minority. Gohan destroyed Vegeta in those fanpolls. I was just saying how Vegeta was never ever close to the most popular yet they made Super the Vegeta show which boggels my mind
As for the other stuff. Geekdom has done videos about it. That Toriyama and Toyotaro talk more because Toryotaro is always wanting to do his own thing more often.
Geekdom showed interviews how Toei themself came out and said that they now treat the word of Toriyama as god and try to adapt Toriyama's outlines and scripts as faithfully as possible
I just assumed Toyotaro was a Vegeta fanboy because the Vegeta bias in the manga is even worse. Can I see a source on Toyotaro saying Goku is his favorite? He sure doesnt show it or do the manga like it. I'm just asking questions as to what could have possibly caused Super to become so biased for Vegeta. It genuinely boggles my mind especially considering other characters are more popular then Vegeta
