dragon boss z wrote:
He says the feel different and that they powered up hugely, but that doesn't necessarily mean they were stronger than their old ssj form. Base Gotenks couldn't even damage Super Buu. I have a hard time believing ssj3 Goku would do that bad against him, and like I said Super Buu would most likely be kid Buu + fat Buu in power considering he is a combo of them.
It definitely means Gotenks surpassed his SSJ self. He says Gotenks can actually beat him and although he was wrong, he thought Base Gotenks could do something SSJ Gotenks could not. That definitely implies Base > SSJ, and by a long shot, i might add.
I don't know, but the fact it doesn't even say Gotenks surpassed Goku may be a hint that he didn't. Not to mention in the final fight with Buu Vegeta thought it would be better to just to bank on Goku than to wish for Gotenks and Gohan to come help. If base Gotenks was really stronger than ssj3 Goku, ssj3 Gotenks and mystic Gohan would be so much stronger than kid Buu they could sneeze him away, they they didn't wish for them to come and instead went with an extremely risky plan. Why risk the universe when there were two guys who could one shot kid Buu? The only logical answer is they really weren't that much stronger. I do think they were stronger than kid Buu, but not enough to where Buu might not take advantage of them or try to absorb them.
The Daizenshuu doesn't says Gotenks surpassed Goku because it's a both Anime and Manga guidebook, and it has to dance around the notion of who's the strongest hero on Earth. This is seen when Chou Gohan's entry says he surpassed Gotenks after having his potential unlocked, but says nothing about him surpassing Goku despite being crystal clear in the manga:
Goku and Vegeta wanted to fight by themselves because fighting is pretty much the reason they live. Once they noticed they couldn't beat Boo on their own Goku suggests bringing Gotenks and/or Gohan to the battlefield:
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4
Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”
Vegeta: “No.”
And Gotenks being stronger than SSJ3 in base doesn't mean he's hundreds of times stronger. We agreed Gotenks' SSJ multiplier is smaller, remember? He's definitely dozens of times stronger though.
Goku could of also known that if Gotenks didn't win in his first try he would try again, like he did. So as long as post ROSAT Gotenks is stronger than Fat Buu, which he was, I think Goku's statement pretty much lines up.
Boo was making a point of killing everyone on his way though. Gotenks only survived because of either dumb luck or being strong enough to take the beatdown. Goku also told Piccolo to not use the Rosat with Gotenks.
It shouldn't be considering base Goku was stronger than Frieza in RoF and equals with him in the RoF arc, while Golden Frieza was above SSB. So that means Golden Frieza should be a bigger multiplier than Blue, but now it seams final form Frieza is still base tier if not much higher yet his golden from is still equal to blue.... I think it just comes down to whatever the plot calls for, lol.
More like he's Super Saiyan Tier considering he did stomp someone who could give Caulifla, who was Goku's equal in equal forms, minimal trouble.
But why would he assume Frost didn't train or didn't have another form unless he was weaker than Frieza was? Not to mention when Frieza was talking to Frost the same thing was brought up and Frieza was portrayed as the more knowledgeable one and he told if Frost trained he "might" be able to get a golden form. Him not being on the level to get a golden form yet should imply him being weaker than RoF Frieza, and him almost losing to Piccolo in the U6 tournament and getting pummeled by base Vegeta in the ToP line up with that.
Why would he assume Frost ever trained or even had another form to begin with? He thought that was Frost's absolute best and Goku doesn't think he trained, considering he literally tells Frost to train. I don't think Freeza's "might" means much, it just implies Golden is hard to achieve.
Piccolo almost beat him because of strategy, not to mention Piccolo holding his own tells more about Piccolo's gains than Frost's power. ToP Vegeta is far, far stronger than U6 Vegeta as well, so him beating Frost doesn't mean much.
Like I said, I don't think Goku was fighting at full power or at least not seriously. Base Goku later drew blood from Hit. Do you think any version of Frost could of done that?
Because he could understand how the Time Skip works and solve his way out of it. Frost doesn't even know about the Time Skip. If Goku was holding back a ton on Frost he wouldn't go SSJ, he'd just power up and beat him up.
The thing with King Piccolo was that he was strong but sucked at fighting. His power level could be above BoZ Tien but still get thrashed by him in a fight.
The issue isn't that Tenshinhan implied he could beat Piccolo, is that he shows better feats than Kid Goku, who's Piccolo's equal. He fights evenly with Weighted Goku, admits he got a lot better, says he barely got faster and then blitzes him hard:
Chapter: 177, P1.2-4, P2.1
Tenshinhan: “Son, you are truly incredible. 3 years ago, your strength was all but perfect. I’m amazed that you’ve managed to go so far above even that. However, there’s one thing that you haven’t changed that much from 3 years ago. And that’s something especially important in battle…speed!”
