Does Vegeta recognizing Goku as #1 intrinsically mean Vegeta giving up on trying to surpass him, period?

[MozillaVulpix]

Realistically, no. Thematically, yes. It was the end of the series, and the next arc has Vegeta fully 'settled down' with the focus on Goku and Uub. Having the final rival to Goku acknowledge Goku is superior to them and thus ending his arc of constantly striving and failing to surpass him feels like the natural endpoint for the story. In-context, that's why it's odd for me to see one of the last big character moments he has in the manga any other way.

[MajinMan]

I'm pretty sure that at the time that Vegeta said that speech, he didn't think he was going to get any much stronger afterwards. This of course changes once he is revived and then later when the fight with Beerus happens. Once Goku achieved god power, Vegeta was able to find a new training method that would place him on the level or beyond that of Goku's. It also must be considered how extreme and difficult of a task achieving SSJ3 is as well which makes it perfectly plausible for Vegeta to admit that Goku was just better until he found that he could be trained by Whis.

In Super he threw away the “Number 1” speech before he even saw Beerus, so that’s not really the case.

[sintzu]

I'm pretty sure that at the time that Vegeta said that speech, he didn't think he was going to get any much stronger afterwards. This of course changes once he is revived and then later when the fight with Beerus happens. Once Goku achieved god power, Vegeta was able to find a new training method that would place him on the level or beyond that of Goku's. It also must be considered how extreme and difficult of a task achieving SSJ3 is as well which makes it perfectly plausible for Vegeta to admit that Goku was just better until he found that he could be trained by Whis.

In Super he threw away the “Number 1” speech before he even saw Beerus, so that’s not really the case.

How did he throw it away when he acknowledged it ?

[Michsi]

Here's the thing, given the context of the series drawing to a close, I definitely think Toriyama meant this as Vegeta accepting Goku as the better of the two. That was what the story has always told us, how the very best Goku is. Remember, this was before Vegeta got elevated to rival status, since the original manga never portrayed him as such. This never meant that he believed Goku was invincible, so him stepping in to help with Buu doesn't not change what that speech was originally supposed to represent : Vegeta conceding and being at his peace with that.
This is enforced when in the original EOZ we see Vegeta be laid back and totally chill with Goku leaving without so much as caring about a match between the two of them. He was amused, he acted mature, and was clearly over his obsession with defeating Goku.

Now fast forward a couple of years and we see some serious backpedalling with Vegeta's development, because in the meantime, Vegeta became the second most popular character, is now universally viewed as Goku's rival and rivalry became a main trope of shonen genre, and him being calm and content isn't as fun as watching him be a prideful, hot tempered, aggressive go-getter. The little scene that Toriyama added to the end of DB 10 years later clashes with everything the rest of the chapter showed us and I think he and the editors were aware of that and that's why it was not used again in a future reprint (I think...)

[Timetraveller]

The problem is, Vegeta choosing to be Goku's rival again is a story we've already seen before....for over 200 episodes of the show so it's a reversion in that sense. If we wanted to see a rivalry done better, I'd just watch DBZ. Even Naruto eventually let go of his "I must beat Sasuke" rivalry and chose to work together with him. Vegeta acknowledging Goku's superiority doesn't mean that he loses his motivation to fight and train. It just means he's onto bigger and better things. A new goal and motivation instead of being fixated on being stronger than Kakarot. That's why GT Vegeta makes the most sense as the natural progression of Vegeta's character.

The whole DBZ ending retcon was done to placate the Vegeta fans who disliked the Vegeta speech and wanted Vegeta to be in the spotlight again.

[Lord Beerus]

The whole DBZ ending retcon was done to placate the Vegeta fans who disliked the Vegeta speech and wanted Vegeta to be in the spotlight again.

I don't believe that was the actual reason behind ending being changed.

[Kanious]

In the Buu's arc Goku was the number one, and Vegeta recognized that. It doesn't mean that Goku will be number 1 forever, and that Vegeta should think the same thing forever and forget surpassing him.

I'm glad that Vegeta is still competitive as ever, not abandoning his desire to be ahead of Kakarotto

[Timetraveller]

The whole DBZ ending retcon was done to placate the Vegeta fans who disliked the Vegeta speech and wanted Vegeta to be in the spotlight again.

I don't believe that was the actual reason behind ending being changed.

I didn't mean it was fact. It's what I think happened

[MajinMan]

I'm pretty sure that at the time that Vegeta said that speech, he didn't think he was going to get any much stronger afterwards. This of course changes once he is revived and then later when the fight with Beerus happens. Once Goku achieved god power, Vegeta was able to find a new training method that would place him on the level or beyond that of Goku's. It also must be considered how extreme and difficult of a task achieving SSJ3 is as well which makes it perfectly plausible for Vegeta to admit that Goku was just better until he found that he could be trained by Whis.

In Super he threw away the “Number 1” speech before he even saw Beerus, so that’s not really the case.

How did he throw it away when he acknowledged it ?

Because he basically said, “I know I said you’re number 1, but not for long! I’ll surpass you and everyone else!” Vegeta pretty much said screw you being number 1, I can still surpass you.

[sintzu]

In Super he threw away the “Number 1” speech before he even saw Beerus, so that’s not really the case.

How did he throw it away when he acknowledged it ?

Because he basically said, “I know I said you’re number 1, but not for long! I’ll surpass you and everyone else!” Vegeta pretty much said screw you being number 1, I can still surpass you.

What's wrong with that ? If I said you were a better writer than me then will I be going against that if I try to improve myself to be better in the future.

Even though he said he'd try to surpass him, he recognized AGAIN that Goku was still ahead of him when they fought Zamasu in the manga and told Trunks to help him instead. If Vegeta was back to his old way he wouldn't have done that.

[Birusu16]

I never got the argument that Vegeta regressed as a character in Super because he was still striving to surpass Goku despite admitting Goku was better than him at the end of the Buu arc. He's come to terms with the fact that Goku is stronger than him, which means he's not deluding himself anymore in thinking that he's somehow destined to be stronger than Goku because his "elite" Saiyan status compared to Goku's "low-class" status. That doesn't mean he won't continue to push himself to get stronger and surpass him. It's no different than an athlete admitting another athlete is better than them yet continue to try and supersede them.

[TheZFighter]

A lot has occurred since then and Vegeta has kept up his training the whole time, so I think its probably a safe bet to say he hasn't given up entirely. I can't imagine Vegeta's pride would ever allow him to give up altogether.

Marco Polo also makes a good point about Vegeta being dead at the time, plus I suppose you also have to consider the gravity of the situation.

[MajinMan]

How did he throw it away when he acknowledged it ?

Because he basically said, “I know I said you’re number 1, but not for long! I’ll surpass you and everyone else!” Vegeta pretty much said screw you being number 1, I can still surpass you.

What's wrong with that ? If I said you were a better writer than me then will I be going against that if I try to improve myself to be better in the future.

Even though he said he'd try to surpass him, he recognized AGAIN that Goku was still ahead of him when they fought Zamasu in the manga and told Trunks to help him instead. If Vegeta was back to his old way he wouldn't have done that.

I don’t have a big problem with it, like I said in previous posts in this thread. I think it’s regression. It’s not about bettering himself, it was mostly about surpassing Goku and claiming the title on number 1. GT Vegeta was the one who trained to better himself, while Super Vegeta gets antsy whenever Goku gains an upperhand (Kaioken Blue).

[NaosZ]

I always thought the "you are #1" scene being about Vegeta finally showing respect for Goku and surpassing his bitterness towards him. I never thought Vegeta was giving up on his will to become stronger. Ok, he didn't even know he was going to survive the day, but once he did, there was no reason for him to stop training to be the best.
More in general, admitting that someone is stronger than you doesn't necessarily mean you will stop trying to improve yourself, instead it might be the starting point for further improvement, with a new perspective. The motivation might change, but the rivalry remains.
So I don't think Vegeta is out of character in Super for being competitive, it actually seems natural for him to be like that. I admit the concept seems at times forced in Super, but I think it's more because of how it his delivered, with Vegeta on a few occasions seeming still angry about it, than because the rivalry itself still exists. Instead, I like how Vegeta seems to be aware, in Super while training with Whis (and Resurrection of F before that), that his rivalry with Goku his constructive for both of them, and will keep pushing them both beyond their limits. In my opinion it totally makes sense and seems perfectly in character.

[Kaiosama]

He's going to be acknowledging Goku as #1 again so his character arc will be resolved to where it was by the end of Z.

[Saturnine]

I don’t have a big problem with it, like I said in previous posts in this thread. I think it’s regression. It’s not about bettering himself, it was mostly about surpassing Goku and claiming the title on number 1. GT Vegeta was the one who trained to better himself, while Super Vegeta gets antsy whenever Goku gains an upperhand (Kaioken Blue).

GT Vegeta was a prideless, emasculated lapdog only good for singing Goku's praises. An extremely sad fate for the prince, even sadder though is how many people consider it valuable character development. "Knowing your place" will in my eyes always be less desirable than saying "screw that, I'm still going to be the best". Vegeta's character is much more engaging, interesting and foremost - inspirational when he's still defiant towards Kakarot instead of submitting to his perceived authority. GT was horrible for how everyone jerked off to Goku and treated him as some metaphysical being at least. It felt really pretentious and delved into the trope of Informed Ability much deeper than is comfortable.

[sailorspazz]

I never saw that speech as him giving up on surpassing Gokuu. Rather, he was giving up his single minded obsession with trying to be the best, and was no longer going to let that define his actions. That doesn't mean he's not still striving to be on top someday, but it does signify that he would no longer resort to extreme measures like allowing Bobbidi to take him over to achieve that goal. He may get jealous at Gokuu's progress, and respond in kind by trying to achieve even greater power ups on his own, but it's become a much less hostile rivalry after that speech.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I never saw that speech as him giving up on surpassing Gokuu. Rather, he was giving up his single minded obsession with trying to be the best, and was no longer going to let that define his actions. That doesn't mean he's not still striving to be on top someday, but it does signify that he would no longer resort to extreme measures like allowing Bobbidi to take him over to achieve that goal. He may get jealous at Gokuu's progress, and respond in kind by trying to achieve even greater power ups on his own, but it's become a much less hostile rivalry after that speech.

Heck, the recent bout that Vegeta had with Hakaishin Toppo helps solidify this.

He's no longer giving everything up to surpass Kakarot; his family and his personal life are still important to him, and he no longer has an unhealthy and detrimental obsession with Kakarot being ahead of him.

Much like in real life, some competitiveness and a single goal are important, but push yourself too hard and become too singularly-minded, and you only hurt yourself and others around you. Vegeta has learned to balance these factors; he knows that Kakarot is always one step ahead of him, but by always giving it his best shot at surpassing his rival, he achieves new heights of his own that he can be proud of.

[Timetraveller]

I don’t have a big problem with it, like I said in previous posts in this thread. I think it’s regression. It’s not about bettering himself, it was mostly about surpassing Goku and claiming the title on number 1. GT Vegeta was the one who trained to better himself, while Super Vegeta gets antsy whenever Goku gains an upperhand (Kaioken Blue).

GT Vegeta was a prideless, emasculated lapdog only good for singing Goku's praises. An extremely sad fate for the prince, even sadder though is how many people consider it valuable character development. "Knowing your place" will in my eyes always be less desirable than saying "screw that, I'm still going to be the best". Vegeta's character is much more engaging, interesting and foremost - inspirational when he's still defiant towards Kakarot instead of submitting to his perceived authority. GT was horrible for how everyone jerked off to Goku and treated him as some metaphysical being at least. It felt really pretentious and delved into the trope of Informed Ability much deeper than is comfortable.

GT Vegeta was far from prideless. He got over his unhealthy obsession with Goku. You would never see GT Vegeta wearing an apron and asskissing anyone like he did with Whis and Beerus. If Vegeta spends an eternity obsessing over Goku, then that makes for bad entertainment as it gets repetitive. We've already seen the I'll defeat Goku schtick for close to 300 episodes in DBZ. ToP arc Vegeta is a step in the right direction. Less Kakarot and they showed us that Vegeta cares about other things in life similar to GT Vegeta

[Saturnine]

GT Vegeta was far from prideless. He got over his unhealthy obsession with Goku. You would never see GT Vegeta wearing an apron and asskissing anyone like he did with Whis and Beerus. If Vegeta spends an eternity obsessing over Goku, then that makes for bad entertainment as it gets repetitive. We've already seen the I'll defeat Goku schtick for close to 300 episodes in DBZ. ToP arc Vegeta is a step in the right direction. Less Kakarot and they showed us that Vegeta cares about other things in life similar to GT Vegeta

Yeah, but ToP Vegeta has power to back that up - his new transformation is at least as strong as KKx20 Kaioken, plus it doesn't wear his body out. Barring UI, which is unpredictable, unstable and difficult to fall into, Vegeta is actually better than Goku right now as far as consistent performance is concerned. This didn't work in GT because Vegeta there was laughably weak.