Is Current SsjB Goku Stronger Than SsjB Vegito Goku Black Arc?

[Helios518]

1) That's honestly denying the evidence in front of us. The feats quite clearly correlate with the statements and the implications that Goku is fighting on par with a Jiren who's stronger than the one who beat Ultra Instinct Goku Power wise from Episode 110 and 116. Bare in mind that this same Jiren is stronger than enraged Kefla who threatened Ultra Instinct Goku from Episode 116 who also got stronger than himself from Episode 110. It's been stated multiple times yet SsjB Goku is shown to have gotten stronger. Multiple times even, it has been shown Goku got stronger, and it was directly intended. No argument here honestly

2) Android 17 specifically states to Goku that he got stronger by training and having 17 above UI Goku from episode 110 is shown to us on these occasions. Something to point out is, saying 17 got stronger by fighting poachers support your point is nothing but an excuse. Gohan became a God Tier in an hour and a half and Frieza became RoF SsjB Tier in 4 months. Goku has gotten stronger because he kept breaking his limits. Even the narrator specifically implies that Kaioken SsjB Goku is a limit breaking power.

3) Coming back a minute without any support or showing would make it an inconsistency which I said. But Goku is different here because it's been 6 episodes and they all showed us Goku being stronger and it would make sense from previous moments which we have witnessed before.

4) Except Goku clearly was getting in denial at Merged Zamasu. Another point is that Vegeta and Goku kept talking about Saiyans getting stronger while fighting so this might also take a factor. If you won't believe the Anger argument then you are forced to believe that Goku hid his full power until Merged Zamasu as he himself starts screaming full power while being under full control of his power and maintains it later by stomping Zamasu

5) So I'm not supposed to see other's view points and debate them if they disagree?

1) I'm not deny evidence. All of those feats you posted are consistent within themselves but inconsistent with 109/110 Geran.

2) 17 didn't say he trained, he said he just wasn't resting during his time. Also, no 17 being 110 higher than 110 UI"O" lvl is contradictory, considering he barely was keeping up with Geran and Goku's fight that episode.

3) This is the same scenario. Supes/Goku gets stomped by Darkseid/Geran, and he comes back a little bit later, Goku/Supes then proceeds to do a much better fight against Darkseid/Geran.

4) Saiyans getting stronger when they fight has been a thing that was never shown or at least by any notable amount during the entirety of Z. The only time it's been shown in DBS, is when someone's getting used to a form (UI or SSJG), or Goku Black.

5) It would've been better off in the strength thread.

[Marlowe89]

Everyone thought Jiren was being beaten but Khai responds with "you must be blind" despite it being an obvious occurrence that Jiren is being overpowered even so briefly. Khai just doesn't believe Jiren will lose.

Because Khai knew that Jiren wasn't taking the fight seriously. I mean, this is even reinforced when Vegeta flat-out tells Jiren that he was stronger when he fought Goku (which you appear to be discounting for some reason) only for Jiren to respond by effortlessly knocking Vegeta around just as he was doing previously. The Final Flash did nothing to Jiren either so it's a moot point.

There are actual statements that directly and unambiguously confirm that Jiren raises and lowers his power at his own whim all the time, and the fact that you're sweeping them under the rug demonstrates that you're less interested in the writer's intent behind these scenes than you are your own personal biases. It shows me that you're incapable of having a rational discussion about this, so I'm rather less inclined to take you seriously myself if I'm being honest. Asserting things like "That goes directly contradictory to the context", despite the fact that it is the context, is just one example of the intellectual dishonesty I've seen from your posts here.

An argument that involves deliberate disingenuity is always an argument that never goes anywhere, so you can believe whatever you want. I'm not convinced that it's what the writing staff believes though, which is really all that matters in the end.

You basically picked up a statement and ignored everything else

When the entire crux of your argument relies on assumptions like "Vegeta suddenly got much stronger in seconds and overpowered Jiren" (even though the dialogue actually suggests otherwise) then yeah, disproving just one of those speculative points indeed causes your entire argument to fall apart. It takes just one domino to topple the rest.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

1) I'm not deny evidence. All of those feats you posted are consistent within themselves but inconsistent with 109/110 Geran.

How is it inconsistent? It's so simple. Jiren fought Ultra Instinct Goku from Episode 110, and is confirmed to be above Ultra Instinct Goku from Episode 116 who's full power Kefla is stronger than and yet episode 122 Jiren is stronger than and stri stronger than himself from Episode 110 according to Jiren. Vegeta manages to damage that same Jiren. Jiren powers more than anytime he ever did and SsjB Goku combated him. There's evidence that Goku got stronger and this supports it. This continues for 6 to 7 episodes. Therefore, SsjB Goku Current > Ultra Instinct Goku Episode 110. It doesn't take a genius to grasp this chain

2) 17 didn't say he trained, he said he just wasn't resting during his time. Also, no 17 being 110 higher than 110 UI"O" lvl is contradictory, considering he barely was keeping up with Geran and Goku's fight that episode.

Goku told 17 he got a lot stronger and trained and 17 answered him back saying it's not like he just rested so based on the context 17 trained. Goku got blitzed by Jiren on Episode 96 yet he tracked him on Episode 109 and further down the road so this debunks your claim. It's a matter of suppression

3) This is the same scenario. Supes/Goku gets stomped by Darkseid/Geran, and he comes back a little bit later, Goku/Supes then proceeds to do a much better fight against Darkseid/Geran.

Except Goku's case is SUPPORTED hundreds of times that he gets stronger gradually each time he reverts back from Ultra Instinct considering he's breaking his limits. At some point his SsjB Form broke through the Love Black Hole thinggy while Android 17 struggled and this is the same Goku who later fights Jiren from Episode 123 and onwards. Goku's case is supported many times while your point isn't. Context and supports > Any other unsupported scenario occasion.

4) Saiyans getting stronger when they fight has been a thing that was never shown or at least by any notable amount during the entirety of Z. The only time it's been shown in DBS, is when someone's getting used to a form (UI or SSJG), or Goku Black.

No it was stated about Goku and Vegeta directly so you're wrong. DBS has retconned Z on this and DBS has supported this both on Goku and Vegeta. Goku overpowers Merged Zamasu by going full power which he states and anger.

At that point, the show was focused on the fact that Saiyans get stronger the more they battle (By getting stronger WHILE AT BATTLE):

[spoiler][/spoiler]

DBS made Zenkai Boosts a big deal to the point that you'd get stronger while fighting:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Even when Goku and Vegeta sensed Merged Zamasu's power, they still strive to go further:

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

They suggested fusion because Merged Zamasu was powerful enough to kill them before they improve enough. Merged Zamasu is shown struggling along with Goku:

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

This has angered Merged Zamasu even more, and results him in powering up further. I'd be delighted to see where was he holding back:

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

At the end of Episode 64, Goku's Kamehameha overpowers Merged Zamasu:

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

The next episode, Goku is seen to be struggling further against The Holy Wrath, but overpowers it and troubles Merged Zamasu:

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

This forces Merged Zamasu to throw out as much power as he can:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goku goes full power and overpowers Merged Zamasu utterly:

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

So not only did Goku overpower Merged Zamasu with anger, Goku was simply hiding his Full power until the end then starts shitting on Merged Zamasu. Nothing contradicts this and the entire situation shows Saiyans becoming stronger through battle so Goku also got stronger while struggling against Merged Zamasu, rendering your point invalid

5) It would've been better off in the strength thread.

I purposedly separated it into its own thread

[Helios518]

1) How is it inconsistent? It's so simple. Jiren fought Ultra Instinct Goku from Episode 110, and is confirmed to be above Ultra Instinct Goku from Episode 116 who's full power Kefla is stronger than and yet episode 122 Jiren is stronger than and stri stronger than himself from Episode 110 according to Jiren. Vegeta manages to damage that same Jiren. Jiren powers more than anytime he ever did and SsjB Goku combated him. There's evidence that Goku got stronger and this supports it. This continues for 6 to 7 episodes. Therefore, SsjB Goku Current > Ultra Instinct Goku Episode 110. It doesn't take a genius to grasp this chain

2) Goku told 17 he got a lot stronger and trained and 17 answered him back saying it's not like he just rested so based on the context 17 trained. Goku got blitzed by Jiren on Episode 96 yet he tracked him on Episode 109 and further down the road so this debunks your claim. It's a matter of suppression

3) Except Goku's case is SUPPORTED hundreds of times that he gets stronger gradually each time he reverts back from Ultra Instinct considering he's breaking his limits. At some point his SsjB Form broke through the Love Black Hole thinggy while Android 17 struggled and this is the same Goku who later fights Jiren from Episode 123 and onwards. Goku's case is supported many times while your point isn't. Context and supports > Any other unsupported scenario occasion.


4) No it was stated about Goku and Vegeta directly so you're wrong. DBS has retconned Z on this and DBS has supported this both on Goku and Vegeta. Goku overpowers Merged Zamasu by going full power which he states and anger.
At that point, the show was focused on the fact that Saiyans get stronger the more they battle (By getting stronger WHILE AT BATTLE)
DBS made Zenkai Boosts a big deal to the point that you'd get stronger while fighting:
Even when Goku and Vegeta sensed Merged Zamasu's power, they still strive to go further:
They suggested fusion because Merged Zamasu was powerful enough to kill them before they improve enough. Merged Zamasu is shown struggling along with Goku:
This has angered Merged Zamasu even more, and results him in powering up further. I'd be delighted to see where was he holding back:
This forces Merged Zamasu to throw out as much power as he can:
Goku goes full power and overpowers Merged Zamasu utterly:

So not only did Goku overpower Merged Zamasu with anger, Goku was simply hiding his Full power until the end then starts shitting on Merged Zamasu. Nothing contradicts this and the entire situation shows Saiyans becoming stronger through battle so Goku also got stronger while struggling against Merged Zamasu, rendering your point invalid

1) It's inconsistent because you have many feats of SSJB Goku contesting with Geran but that same Goku gets stomped by a weaker Geran.

2) That could just mean he was fighting poachers not training.

3) No, it only refers to him breaking his limits because he just accessed UI"O".

4) There's still nothing saying he got an anger boost instead it only shows that Goku got angry and pushed harder (like how any normal person can do) in fact, most of the "evidence" you shown is them fighting harder not getting stronger.

[Zephyr]

If you try to look at every little detail, and meticulously factor all of them into a huge logic puzzle, you're not going to get coherent results. Dialog, storyboarding, animation, and the like, are not done the way they are done so that fans can painstakingly extract feats and statements for such a logic puzzle. They're done the way they are done for hype, entertainment, style, and artistic flair. There is, however, a story being told here, and that hinges on certain broad strokes. As such, I don't think these small details actually add up to anything substantive. Rather, I think the broad strokes are more worth paying attention to.

Said broad strokes are essentially this:
1. Vegetto is insanely more powerful than either of his components are. This has always been the case.
2. Judging from the beginning of the arc, Goku is now rusty, and hasn't been keeping up with his training:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And point number 2 is indeed one of the broad strokes, rather than a throwaway bit, as it is also present in the manga:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Indeed, that Goku has weakened since the prior arc is an essential plot point that serves to move the arc proper into motion. If you don't want to dismiss all of the stylistic animation and storyboarding, and hype-generating statements, and want to take even the most minute details into consideration, these lines undermine the coherency of the whole picture. A slacking and rusty Goku shouldn't be stronger than he was just prior to said slacking and rusting.

So the argument, upon taking the broad strokes into consideration, might look something like this:
- "Black arc" Vegetto is stronger than "Black arc" Goku, because that's how the potara work.
- "Universe Survival arc" Vegetto is stronger than "Universe Survival arc" Goku, because that's how the potara work.
- "Black arc" Goku is stronger than (or at the very least, not any weaker than) "Universe Survival arc" Goku, because Goku has been slacking on his training, got rusty, and that's the very reason he goes to Beerus' planet and suggests asking Zeno about the tournament in the first place.
- The storytelling inherent to the work itself has more priority than a tertiary logic puzzle that fandom compulsively engages in, and reversing this priority is to miss the forest for the trees.
- Therefore, "Black arc" Vegetto must be stronger than "Universe Survival arc" Goku, because Vegetto is always greater than the sum of his parts, and his relevant part did not increase in strength between arcs, and asserting otherwise would render the arc's foundational storytelling momentum moot.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Because Khai knew that Jiren wasn't taking the fight seriously. I mean, this is even reinforced when Vegeta flat-out tells Jiren that he was stronger when he fought Goku (which you appear to be discounting for some reason) only for Jiren to respond by effortlessly knocking Vegeta around just as he was doing previously. The Final Flash did nothing to Jiren either so it's a moot point.

I'm not ignoring anything. Vegeta's statement about Jiren being stronger than before would refer to goku from Episode 122. Otherwise that would be contradictory to Vegeta's statement about Jiren's energy from Episode 122 being above anything he felt which would include Jiren from Episode 110. Jiren does destroy Vegeta afterwards but he does far better than Goku (you seem to directly ignore this because you're just trying to cherry pick whatever you feel like supporting you despite ignoring the entirety of the context which throws your argument out of the window). The final flash makes Jiren fall down but the problem was that Vegeta let his guard down. The power of the Final Flash surpassed Ultra Instinct Goku and that was shown statements wise and feat wise. You also seem to ignore that as well. Yet Goku does better than the Final Flash from Episode 122 on Episode 123. You're just ignoring everything which debunks you so that you are satisfied. No one is implying Vegeta is stronger than Jiren as Khai knows he's far above what he showed. Khai however pisses when he sees Final Flash which is another point you ignored because you felt like it. The burden of proof is on you.

There are actual statements that directly and unambiguously confirm that Jiren raises and lowers his power at his own whim all the time, and the fact that you're sweeping them under the rug demonstrates that you're less interested in the writer's intent behind these scenes than you are your own personal biases. It shows me that you're incapable of having a rational discussion about this, so I'm rather less inclined to take you seriously myself if I'm being honest. Asserting things like "That goes directly contradictory to the context", despite the fact that it is the context, is just one example of the intellectual dishonesty I've seen from your posts here.

Aren't you trying to sound genius here claiming that I'm actually ignoring stuff even though it's you who's been ignoring all the feats up to now making you look far worse than you already made yourself out to be? You've simply cherrypicking what satisfies you and are disregarding whatever you feel is contradictory to your point. All you've been doing is state multiple folly arguments and ignoring everything else yet you claim I'm wrong, however this automatically downgrades you. You are not a reliable person and definitely not worth my time, and since you tried to act so hypocritical yet in the end all the building blocks have fallen on your head, this makes it seem as if you're hurt from the burden of proof but you're covering it with your tone. The writer's intent is clear that Goku got stronger but hey it's you, the guy who's ignoring everything just so that you support your own facepalming and speculative reasonings. Goku clearly combated a Jiren who FAR surpassed ANYTHING he ever shown before which was stated directly by statements and feats support it. Goku then matches that. But what I'm I saying it's you so I don't think you can handle this if you can't even handle the burden raining above your head.

An argument that involves deliberate disingenuity is always an argument that never goes anywhere, so you can believe whatever you want. I'm not convinced that it's what the writing staff believes though, which is really all that matters in the end.

I'm not here debating to convince anybody, I'm just arguing. I'm debating, and it seems to me you're unintentionally conceding given you have nothing to counter me except garbage talk just so you could try to sound genius and act judgemental when all of that falls on you. Convincing someone who's stuck to their opinions while ignoring everything which debunks them doesn't deserve to even be tried with as that would mean you're out of hope to be convinced or even debate with. Nice try, but it's all futile mate

When the entire crux of your argument relies on assumptions like "Vegeta suddenly got much stronger in seconds and overpowered Jiren" (even though the dialogue actually suggests otherwise) then yeah, disproving just one of those speculative points indeed causes your entire argument to fall apart. It takes just one domino to topple the rest.

You know what you're saying is quite frankly Ironic given that you're the only person here who's speculating almost everything and at the same time you're ignoring everything that debunks you and excuse your actions by hiding in your shell of denial. You haven't disprove anything since all you did is speculate and ignore. Headcanon and Attempts of disregarding factually <<<<< Factual evidence and support from the show. Vegeta did overpower Jiren for a while and that was OBVIOUS unless you have mental issues, but then Jiren proceeds to overpower him. I think you're quite clearly accusing me of things which makes me annoyed given I hate being accused. Based on you not being inclined to debate with me you won't reply right? If you do it only shows you're triggered and that I'm correct about you. You failed to refute everything and ignored all the other evidences which debunk you just so that you stay relevant. That's no way to debate and this makes you automatically lose this here. The Dailogue completely agrees with me which you obviously ignore and the rest prove Goku as a SsjB is beyond SsjB Vegito. Sinfe you failed to achieve your objective my case is out to rest and my input on this stays relevant. What you say isn't facts, since all you're saying is pure headcanon and ignoring the show.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

If you try to look at every little detail, and meticulously factor all of them into a huge logic puzzle, you're not going to get coherent results. Dialog, storyboarding, animation, and the like, are not done the way they are done so that fans can painstakingly extract feats and statements for such a logic puzzle. They're done the way they are done for hype, entertainment, style, and artistic flair. There is, however, a story being told here, and that hinges on certain broad strokes. As such, I don't think these small details actually add up to anything substantive. Rather, I think the broad strokes are more worth paying attention to.

Said broad strokes are essentially this:
1. Vegetto is insanely more powerful than either of his components are. This has always been the case.
2. Judging from the beginning of the arc, Goku is now rusty, and hasn't been keeping up with his training:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And point number 2 is indeed one of the broad strokes, rather than a throwaway bit, as it is also present in the manga:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Indeed, that Goku has weakened since the prior arc is an essential plot point that serves to move the arc proper into motion. If you don't want to dismiss all of the stylistic animation and storyboarding, and hype-generating statements, and want to take even the most minute details into consideration, these lines undermine the coherency of the whole picture. A slacking and rusty Goku shouldn't be stronger than he was just prior to said slacking and rusting.

So the argument, upon taking the broad strokes into consideration, might look something like this:
- "Black arc" Vegetto is stronger than "Black arc" Goku, because that's how the potara work.
- "Universe Survival arc" Vegetto is stronger than "Universe Survival arc" Goku, because that's how the potara work.
- "Black arc" Goku is stronger than (or at the very least, not any weaker than) "Universe Survival arc" Goku, because Goku has been slacking on his training, got rusty, and that's the very reason he goes to Beerus' planet and suggests asking Zeno about the tournament in the first place.
- The storytelling inherent to the work itself has more priority than a tertiary logic puzzle that fandom compulsively engages in, and reversing this priority is to miss the forest for the trees.
- Therefore, "Black arc" Vegetto must be stronger than "Universe Survival arc" Goku, because Vegetto is always greater than the sum of his parts, and his relevant part did not increase in strength between arcs, and asserting otherwise would render the arc's foundational storytelling momentum moot.

All your point relies on the rusty argument despite it being absolutely wrong and misinterpreted. Frieza got soft in hell but he did get strong suggesting that getting soft doesn't mean you're weaker Power wise. Goku got stronger which is showcased in the Tournament of Power on many occasions. Saying Goku is weaker is honestly obstructive and unreasonable

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

[Zephyr]

Freeza's honing of ki control was the result of doing image training the whole time. Freeza was training.

Goku was not. That's why he goes to Whis again in the first place. That's the impetuous for the subsequent events that play out. This is how the story itself is structured.

Goku got stronger which is showcased in the Tournament of Power on many occasions

Based on extracting feats from storyboards and animation cuts not meant to showcase feats for a grand logic puzzle, and incorporating statements not meant to contribute to a logic puzzle, correct?

[Marlowe89]

Vegeta's statement about Jiren being stronger than before would refer to goku from Episode 122.

It doesn't particularly matter which Goku Vegeta was referring to. All we know is that the Jiren who was fighting "evenly" with Vegeta in Episode 122 is weaker than a previous showcasing of Jiren's strength, which means that Jiren is even more suppressed than he was before and is just as inclined to decrease his power as he is inclined to raise it. If that showcasing is present in Episode 122, that would really just accentuate the whole rebuttal even more. Therefore, "I've never encountered an energy as strong as this" is not an acceptable framework or measuring stick, since the dialogue itself implies that that very same measuring stick is capable of fluctuating from moment to moment.

If Jiren gradually and exclusively increased his strength output throughout the tournament then you'd have a point, but he doesn't, so you don't. It really is that simple.

The power of the Final Flash surpassed Ultra Instinct Goku and that was shown statements wise and feat wise.

That assertion is not "shown" by any statement in the episode, I'm afraid, because nobody ever compares the Final Flash to Ultra Instinct Goku. You're just extrapolating that from Khai's shocked facial expression and other statements that do absolutely nothing to indicate a direct correlation between the two. Posting these hilariously long walls of text isn't going to change any of that, unfortunately.

I also find it mildly amusing that you're preaching to me about the "burden of proof", considering that such a concept pertains entirely to the person asserting the initial claim. It's entirely your own job to prove why and how this is the case -- I'm just telling you that it's unconvincing at best and downright false at worst.

and ignored all the other evidences

Nah, you just keep missing the point of my previous post. Your other "evidences" (sp) don't do much to contribute to whatever point you're trying to make if the actual crux of your argument is refuted by the show. That's not cherrypicking, that's just using my time efficiently. I'm not going to bother responding to each and every single bulletpoint you throw out when all it takes is one piece of dialogue to debunk everything at its core.

If anything, I'm actually kind of sad because you clearly spent so much time and effort putting all of this stuff together only for it to fall apart in its entirety just from one statement. At least you tried though, right?

[majinwarman]

Anime Wise, how Do you view the situation ?

Do you agree or not with the explanation?

I think he is stronger but also could be weaker depending on the situation he's in and who's writing the episode. The same SsjB who's fighting Jiren was held off for a bit by the likes of Krillin. We've seen 17 go from Cell arc pre-ROSAT Ssj1 to the strongest form of SsjB from protecting animals.

I didn't read it because there's no sense in trying to explain it in-universe at this point. The writers are just doing whatever because of their lack of understanding of the source material or just not caring about it and the viewers.

[majinwarman]

If you try to look at every little detail, and meticulously factor all of them into a huge logic puzzle, you're not going to get coherent results. Dialog, storyboarding, animation, and the like, are not done the way they are done so that fans can painstakingly extract feats and statements for such a logic puzzle. They're done the way they are done for hype, entertainment, style, and artistic flair. There is, however, a story being told here, and that hinges on certain broad strokes. As such, I don't think these small details actually add up to anything substantive. Rather, I think the broad strokes are more worth paying attention to.

Said broad strokes are essentially this:
1. Vegetto is insanely more powerful than either of his components are. This has always been the case.
2. Judging from the beginning of the arc, Goku is now rusty, and hasn't been keeping up with his training:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And point number 2 is indeed one of the broad strokes, rather than a throwaway bit, as it is also present in the manga:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Indeed, that Goku has weakened since the prior arc is an essential plot point that serves to move the arc proper into motion. If you don't want to dismiss all of the stylistic animation and storyboarding, and hype-generating statements, and want to take even the most minute details into consideration, these lines undermine the coherency of the whole picture. A slacking and rusty Goku shouldn't be stronger than he was just prior to said slacking and rusting.

So the argument, upon taking the broad strokes into consideration, might look something like this:
- "Black arc" Vegetto is stronger than "Black arc" Goku, because that's how the potara work.
- "Universe Survival arc" Vegetto is stronger than "Universe Survival arc" Goku, because that's how the potara work.
- "Black arc" Goku is stronger than (or at the very least, not any weaker than) "Universe Survival arc" Goku, because Goku has been slacking on his training, got rusty, and that's the very reason he goes to Beerus' planet and suggests asking Zeno about the tournament in the first place.
- The storytelling inherent to the work itself has more priority than a tertiary logic puzzle that fandom compulsively engages in, and reversing this priority is to miss the forest for the trees.
- Therefore, "Black arc" Vegetto must be stronger than "Universe Survival arc" Goku, because Vegetto is always greater than the sum of his parts, and his relevant part did not increase in strength between arcs, and asserting otherwise would render the arc's foundational storytelling momentum moot.

All your point relies on the rusty argument despite it being absolutely wrong and misinterpreted. Frieza got soft in hell but he did get strong suggesting that getting soft doesn't mean you're weaker Power wise. Goku got stronger which is showcased in the Tournament of Power on many occasions. Saying Goku is weaker is honestly obstructive and unreasonable

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

I think what the show is impliying that the characters need to improve their stamina but power-wise they are fine.

[Zamasu55]

Ssj Blue Vegito was surpassed by suppressed Jiren in ep. 110.

UI Goku (ep. 110), Ssj2 Kefla, UI Goku (ep. 116), LB Vegeta, SsjB KKx20 Goku (current) and Hakaishin Toppo, who are all above suppressed Jiren, are automatically stronger than Vegito and Merged Zamasu.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Freeza's honing of ki control was the result of doing image training the whole time. Freeza was training.

Goku was not. That's why he goes to Whis again in the first place. That's the impetuous for the subsequent events that play out. This is how the story itself is structured.

The story quite clearly shows that Goku got stronger throughout the Tournament gradually so you don't have the obligation to suggest what's to be meant and what's Not. If anything this would be rendered as an inconsistency. Goku wanting to train means he wants to toughen his body but not get stronger because he's weaker. All you're doing is use vague instances and claim they're meant to be used.

Based on extracting feats from storyboards and animation cuts not meant to showcase feats for a grand logic puzzle, and incorporating statements not meant to contribute to a logic puzzle, correct?

What kind of logic is that? Those are called feats backed up by character statements so we have to pay attention to them and not blatantly ignore them just because we feel like it.

It doesn't particularly matter which Goku Vegeta was referring to. All we know is that the Jiren who was fighting "evenly" with Vegeta in Episode 122 is weaker than a previous showcasing of Jiren's strength, which means that Jiren is even more suppressed than he was before and is just as inclined to decrease his power as he is inclined to raise it

So that's all you have to say? Yet you are also ignoring Vegeta's statement where he specifically says that Jiren which he fought has the strongest Ki he ever felt which automatically makes this Jiren superior to anything from before including Ultra Instinct Goku from Episode 116 and Merged Zamasu. Haha, nice playing yourself bud. What you're doing is concentrate on one single statement while it ore everything else which debunks you so nice try but it's all futile.

If that showcasing is present in Episode 122, that would really just accentuate the whole rebuttal even more. Therefore, "I've never encountered an energy as strong as this" is not an acceptable framework or measuring stick, since the dialogue itself implies that that very same measuring stick is capable of fluctuating from moment to moment.

This here is your own speculation which just comes out of your ass. Nothing states Jiren suddenly fluctuated his Ki against Vegeta. Nothing which places your argument in the trash bin. The Jiren Vegeta fought is the guy which he commented about being the strongest Ki he ever felt.

Again, either way it doesn't matter. Goku has been shown to fight a Jiren who's stronger than the one from Episode 110 multiple times which you blatantly ignored because you feel pressured and the burden of proof hurts you so had you can't handle it.

Goku fights Jiren while having his aura visible around him (never has Jiren done that before while fighting, and Jiren supposedly is ticked of due to what Goku did to him, which made him far more serious):

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Jiren becomes more than just serious, and Vermouth comments that he senses a rise in Jiren and that he never has seen him that serious in a VERY LONG TIME:

[spoiler]


[/spoiler]

This Jiren far surpasses anything Jiren has showed before, and Goku powers up, actually trading blows with that same Jiren:

[spoiler]


[/spoiler]

Jiren got even more serious, by showing a hint of his power only, thus returning Goku to his base form. Jiren's "hint" of his real power is the strongest thing Goku ever felt and witnessed:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goku goes Kaioken x20 (It's stated he goes full power), and Beerus believes that Goku has a shot against this same Jiren:

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Vegeta Also transforms, and both Vegeta and Goku attack Jiren together, and Jiren credits both of them to have become far stronger than before:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

What I found interesting is that The Narrator states that BOTH Goku AND Vegeta are together in their limit-breaking forms, despite Goku only being in Kaioken x20, and the fact that Goku has already stated that he got the hang of Ultra Instinct (which originally is his limit breaking power, which has pushed Goku into ultimately new heights, yet Kaioken x20 {episode 123} transcends beyond that):

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Apparently This case has shifted far beyond than whether current SsjB Goku or Vegeta surpassed Ultra Instinct Goku on Episode 110, into how much did they get stronger. On Episode 127, Jiren shows his true strength, which is implied to be above anything else that has been revealed:

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Goku, Vegeta and Android 17 manage to fight Jiren (although they're on teams, if they're far too inferior, Team Work would be rendered invalid):

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Vegeta even manages to push Jiren and keep up with him (Goku's SsjB alone is relative to Vegeta as Both Goku and Vegeta are going on equal perspectives against Jiren):

[spoiler]



[/spoiler]

This here puts your point to shame. Look mate, your speculation and ignoring of everything will not make you succeed in any of your objective, if there's any. All you're doing is blatantly ignore everything and use your own personal headcanon and then claim that you're refuting something when you're only making yourself look worse. You can't refute anything, used headcanon and ignored everything. This puts you down. Currently you are a person who's unacquainted at all because your mentality doesn't allow it.

If Jiren gradually and exclusively increased his strength output throughout the tournament then you'd have a point, but he doesn't, so you don't. It really is that simple.

But Jiren has statements about going out and increase his strength. It's STATED Manu times that Jiren on Episode 123 has increased his strength more than anything he EVER showed before but Goku combated him. Then he shows a hint of his power which he never showed before and stated yet Goku goes Kaioken SsjB and it was believed he could beat Jiren. Jiren credits Goku and Vegeta who are equals to have sharper attacks. Goku and Vegeta as SsjB and SsjBE have fought a Jiren who showed his REAL power. It contradicts your point. In of Disscussion. You're ignoring everything

That assertion is not "shown" by any statement in the episode, I'm afraid, because nobody ever compares the Final Flash to Ultra Instinct Goku. You're just extrapolating that from Khai's shocked facial expression and other statements that do absolutely nothing to indicate a direct correlation between the two. Posting these hilariously long walls of text isn't going to change any of that, unfortunately.

So they have to shout "Hey this is above Goku when he last fought him yeah!"? Stop being ridiculous. The show has its ways of showing this but you're obviously ignoring it. They're not going to literally shout everything out because that would defeat any possible reason of plot out there. All you're doing is ignoring whatever you feel like, which puts a real bad image on yourself but you don't mind so I'm inclined to believe you're always this deluded. Direct statements and Implifications imply Final Flash > Episode 110 Goku but no you're just ignoring them. We have to have a statement like "My Kamehameha can destroy a planet!" to conclude Goku's SsjB Kaioken Kamehameha can destroy one

Vegeta then charges the final flash. This power has let even Vermouth to wonder about the power of Saiyans despite having seen a Saiyan who achieved ultra instinct. He even got worried hilariously, implying Ultra Instinct is nothing to this:

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

The statement Vermouth said about how can Vegeta's final flash have power higher than he did previously implies Vegeta's SsjB being above anything universe 7 has showed before. Vermouth's statement is suggesting that Vegeta's power can't be higher than what it is before, but after it he wonders about Saiyan Potentials. If Ultra Instinct is within Saiyan's potential, then it wouldn't be a surprise unless Vegeta's earlier level was shocking and more than Ultra Instinct episode 110 in the first place. Despite Vegeta already witnessing Jiren's durability and everything to even withstand Ultra Instinct Goku's attacks and his previous attacks as well, Vegeta believes that his blast is enough to deal with Jiren and end his case:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Beerus believes Jiren would lose against Final Flash (Jiren is suppressed here though):

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And it actually does make Jiren get serious and block with two hands. It also throws him down on the ground for a couple of seconds:

[spoiler]


[/spoiler]

Toppo was worried, while he didn't show any such sign when Goku went to fight Jiren in Ultra Instinct on Episode 110:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Look mate, If all you're doing is sitting there doing nothing but ignoring everything while failing to do refute anything then you're just a stick with no reason placed there

I also find it mildly amusing that you're preaching to me about the "burden of proof", considering that such a concept pertains entirely to the person asserting the initial claim. It's entirely your own job to prove why and how this is the case -- I'm just telling you that it's unconvincing at best and downright false at worst.

The burden of proof is on your to prove any of my claims wrong in the first place and doesn't relate to me since I've already rested my case more than enough. I can't convince you on ass if all you're doing is shielding yourself with headcanon and ignoring factual material. I've already done my case and I've convinced many people on many communities and probably here which I'm sure of. If you claim it's "downright wrong", all the burden of proof rains down on you until you clear yourself from it which you're horribly failing.

Nah, you just keep missing the point of my previous post

I'm missing no point. You just think you made valid points in the first place but non of them is notable and act more of an excuse than anything else

Your other "evidences" (sp) don't do much to contribute to whatever point you're trying to make if the actual crux of your argument is refuted by the show

It's funny it all goes in the opposite direction where the show quite clearly support me but all you're doing is mention a single thing and that's it when it's heavily contradicted and you yourself can't understand the context behind it. Hey, it's you, the guy who ignores everything based on their personal tastes and needs.

That's not cherrypicking, that's just using my time efficiently. I'm not going to bother responding to each and every single bulletpoint you throw out when all it takes is one piece of dialogue to debunk everything at its core.

That is cherrypicking. You haven't read anything to begin with other than the start and you act as if you read an entire novel. That's kind of hypocritical but don't try since it doesn't suit You in the first place. One dialogue which you yourself misunderstand and at the same time you're ignoring the context and other materials behind it ain't gonna disprove anyhting bud. Your trial is futile

If anything, I'm actually kind of sad because you clearly spent so much time and effort putting all of this stuff together only for it to fall apart in its entirety just from one statement. At least you tried though, right?

[/quote]

Well, I tried to get it into your deluded mind but hey, it's you, you still have nothing to say. Listen kid, you think you have actually debunked anything but that's not the case. Ignoring stuff ain't gonna prove your point, but rather the opposite, that you're a horrible person. So yeah I spent time making this only to fail to get it into your deluded and belittered thoughts with many blatantness. So I see I'm doing my job huh.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Ssj Blue Vegito was surpassed by suppressed Jiren in ep. 110.

UI Goku (ep. 110), Ssj2 Kefla, UI Goku (ep. 116), LB Vegeta, SsjB KKx20 Goku (current) and Hakaishin Toppo, who are all above suppressed Jiren, are automatically stronger than Vegito and Merged Zamasu.

100% agreed

[Marlowe89]

So that's all you have to say? Yet you are also ignoring Vegeta's statement where he specifically says that Jiren which he fought has the strongest Ki he ever felt which automatically makes this Jiren superior to anything from before including Ultra Instinct Goku from Episode 116 and Merged Zamasu. Haha, nice playing yourself bud. What you're doing is concentrate on one single statement while it ore everything else which debunks you so nice try but it's all futile.

The fact that you think I'm ignoring it just means you're failing to grasp why your argument holds no water. I think the real issue here is that you're just working yourself into a frenzy as you get increasingly frustrated with every new post, but I'm gonna go ahead and attempt to explain this step-by-step, since you don't appear to be comprehending this at all. This is all from Episode 122:

1. Goku and Vegeta "take turns" (in Goku's own words) fighting Jiren from the 9:30 mark to the 11:00 mark.

2. Goku himself fought Jiren on his own both from the 8:30 mark to the 9:30 mark, then Vegeta took his turn, then Goku fought Jiren again from the 10:45 mark to the 11:00 mark while Vegeta was down.

3. Vegeta, now performing considerably better against Jiren by the 13:30 mark, says that the latter was faster and stronger when he fought Goku.

4. Therefore, Jiren must have suppressed himself further at some point between the 11:00 mark (when he last fought Goku) and the 13:30 mark (when Vegeta claimed Jiren was stronger against Goku).

5. Vegeta says "I've never encountered an energy as strong and heavy as this" at the 10:30 mark. This is the important part, because the 10:30 mark takes place prior to the 11:00 mark.

6. Therefore, the Jiren that fought "evenly" with Vegeta must have been even more suppressed than the Jiren that Vegeta stated to have an energy stronger and heavier than anyone he's ever encountered while tanking Vegeta's attacks. This effectively demonstrates that Jiren sometimes uses a lower level of strength than the latter.

7. In conclusion, Vegeta's statement in (5) isn't reliable as a point of reference. Since that statement isn't an acceptable framework, every single bit of "evidence" that relies on that premise fails to support the argument that current SSB Goku is stronger than SSB Vegito from the Future Trunks arc.

Giant wall of unnecessary text and images

This one's even funnier because, somehow, you think that Jiren having an aura, some random facial expressions, Belmod wondering about the strength of Saiyans, and perhaps most bizarrely of all, SSB Goku fighting alongside SSB Evolution Vegeta provides any support for the point you're trying to make when they don't even really hint at your central argument in any significant way. None of it relies on a direct statement of any kind; it's just desperate extrapolation based on you trying to find support for a preconception you already had to begin with. At best, all you've managed to do is maybe point out an implication from the narrator that Kaioken x 20 Goku might be stronger than the initial UI Goku, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at all so there was no point in bringing it up. That's not what people are disputing, and for my part, I'm not denying that Goku became stronger during the tournament.

The rest of your post is just needless whining about your own misunderstanding of the burden of proof and claiming I'm a "horrible person" just because I was able to find a fallacy that renders your whole argument meaningless, which I'd rather not entertain because I'm not a child. Again, you're welcome to believe whatever you want -- the fun thing about Super in particular is that it allows for a variety of opinions and discussions, provided that the people having them aren't resorting to being obtuse and disingenuous just so that they can push their beliefs as some kind of irrefutable fact.

So they have to shout "Hey this is above Goku when he last fought him yeah!"?

Well, yeah, because then you'd actually have real evidence. It's not like they haven't made similar statements before within this very arc.

[Zephyr]

Based on extracting feats from storyboards and animation cuts not meant to showcase feats for a grand logic puzzle, and incorporating statements not meant to contribute to a logic puzzle, correct?

What kind of logic is that? Those are called feats backed up by character statements so we have to pay attention to them and not blatantly ignore them just because we feel like it.

The logic of looking at the series for what it is. This is a TV anime aimed at Japanese school kids. These things are storyboarded the way they are, animated the way they are, and talked about by characters the way they are, primarily to hype shit up, entertain, and be crazy fucking awesome.

You're painstaking analyzing every minute detail as if every minute detail exists the way it does for the explicit purpose of you (ostensibly adult, international fans) cataloging them and using them for literally nothing beyond this gargantuan logic puzzle of hypothetical versus match ups and tier lists.

The conclusions that are to be reached by codifying every ounce of on-screen action and dialog into such a system isn't in any way guaranteed to be the intended narrative take-home point of relative strength. The creators and planners of the show do not share your priorities and hobbies. They're trying to entertain children, first and foremost.

You focus on all of this minutia in an attempt to answer these questions, when the importance of the minutia isn't guaranteed. You're treating every small detail as if it's the most salient clue ever. You're missing the forest for the trees. To illustrate what I mean by this, look at the episode where Goku recruits Krillin: Goku goes Super Saiyan Blue, they clash Kamehamehas, and Krillin pushes it back. Now, if asked "where does Krillin stand relative to Super Saiyan Blue?", and you zero in on the fact that Krillin pushed it back slightly, and use that as a salient feat which indicates his placement being near Blue level, then you're missing the overall point of the episode: that Krillin is horrendously outclassed, and he's brave enough to charge head-on anyway.

There was probably a time long ago where you could read and watch Dragon Ball, and extract feats from the animation, storyboards, and dialog, and the resulting conclusions would cohere largely with the intended narrative themes and take-home points. But if that's what you're after, Dragon Ball Super is not your champ. You're running a fool's errand, here.

Goku wanting to train means he wants to toughen his body but not get stronger because he's weaker.

Feels like a distinction without a difference to me.

The story quite clearly shows that Goku got stronger throughout the Tournament gradually

Alright, that's a much better point. Where does the narrative, in the broad sense, suggest this? I don't mean five dozen bits of isolated lines and screen grabs that together might sort of imply it if you squint your eyes a little; I mean, a clear-cut case of "Goku's Super Saiyan Blue state is growing stronger in this battle" existing as a major important theme. I'm asking this sincerely, because it seems believable enough, and although I've watched every episode, it hasn't stood out.

And if such doesn't actually exist within the series, and you're still convinced that Goku's Super Saiyan Blue state in this arc is stronger than Vegetto's in the previous arc, more power to you! You're not obligated to share my take on the matter. You're not obligated to notice the forest if the trees are just that damn succulent.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The fact of the matter is, SSB is referred to in the broad sense throughout the Universal Survival Arc, which makes sense if its power has remained relatively consistent throughout this arc.

And its power hasn't really been played up as majorly above its showings in the Future Trunks Arc, either.

Heck, the fight with Kefla helps reinforce this by showing that, in a SS form inferior to SSB itself proportionately speaking, Kefla could match and overpower Goku thanks to the power of the Potara Fusion.

[TheOtherDude]

If you try to look at every little detail, and meticulously factor all of them into a huge logic puzzle, you're not going to get coherent results. Dialog, storyboarding, animation, and the like, are not done the way they are done so that fans can painstakingly extract feats and statements for such a logic puzzle. They're done the way they are done for hype, entertainment, style, and artistic flair. There is, however, a story being told here, and that hinges on certain broad strokes. As such, I don't think these small details actually add up to anything substantive. Rather, I think the broad strokes are more worth paying attention to.

Said broad strokes are essentially this:
1. Vegetto is insanely more powerful than either of his components are. This has always been the case.
2. Judging from the beginning of the arc, Goku is now rusty, and hasn't been keeping up with his training:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And point number 2 is indeed one of the broad strokes, rather than a throwaway bit, as it is also present in the manga:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Indeed, that Goku has weakened since the prior arc is an essential plot point that serves to move the arc proper into motion. If you don't want to dismiss all of the stylistic animation and storyboarding, and hype-generating statements, and want to take even the most minute details into consideration, these lines undermine the coherency of the whole picture. A slacking and rusty Goku shouldn't be stronger than he was just prior to said slacking and rusting.

So the argument, upon taking the broad strokes into consideration, might look something like this:
- "Black arc" Vegetto is stronger than "Black arc" Goku, because that's how the potara work.
- "Universe Survival arc" Vegetto is stronger than "Universe Survival arc" Goku, because that's how the potara work.
- "Black arc" Goku is stronger than (or at the very least, not any weaker than) "Universe Survival arc" Goku, because Goku has been slacking on his training, got rusty, and that's the very reason he goes to Beerus' planet and suggests asking Zeno about the tournament in the first place.
- The storytelling inherent to the work itself has more priority than a tertiary logic puzzle that fandom compulsively engages in, and reversing this priority is to miss the forest for the trees.
- Therefore, "Black arc" Vegetto must be stronger than "Universe Survival arc" Goku, because Vegetto is always greater than the sum of his parts, and his relevant part did not increase in strength between arcs, and asserting otherwise would render the arc's foundational storytelling momentum moot.

All your point relies on the rusty argument despite it being absolutely wrong and misinterpreted. Frieza got soft in hell but he did get strong suggesting that getting soft doesn't mean you're weaker Power wise. Goku got stronger which is showcased in the Tournament of Power on many occasions. Saying Goku is weaker is honestly obstructive and unreasonable

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Goodness.. This guy gives you straight up consistent facts from both the manga AND anime, and your response to that is a statement made in the anime?

You obviously are just searching for things to fit your personal narrative with a very forgettable line by Frieza. You give toei too much credit by over dissecting a statement like that. It’s a simple show. CLEARLY they meant for Goku to feel like he’s gotten weaker since he got scrapped by a bullet. Do you remember the last time a bullet bothered anyone? Krillin as a cop doesn’t count obviously. For Goku to get scrapped by a bullet would mean his movements weren’t as sharp as they should be. It’s common sense.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

SSB Goku isn't any stronger than he was at the start of the tournament. Vegito would crush SSB Goku like a bug.

Don't even know what the obsession with "trading blows" is about. Jiren's simple punch shocked Goku so much he reverted back to Base involuntarily.

You're implying that Goku and Jiren were comparable due to "trading blows" but they weren't, so having comparable power isn't a requirement for trading blows with anyone.

SSB Goku "traded blows" with Jiren in his first fight yet got crushed effortlessly. He then used Kaioken and got instantly smashed into the ground without ever "trading blows". And Jiren was able to deflect the Spirit Bomb with one hand while he had to "trade blows" with SSB Goku in order to push him back. So SSB Goku was "trading blows" with someone dozens of times stronger than him.

Yet according to you does the chain go Jiren=SSB Goku>Spirit Bomb>SSB Kaiokenx20>SSB Goku?
Yeah no, that's nonsense and that's what you get when you try to overanalyze everything for no reason. The feats being brought up aren't even described in proper context so it's not a story issue, that's more so a comprehension issue.

There's nothing in the story whatsoever pointing to the conclusion that Goku trading blows with a powered up Jiren was at was something that he wasn't capable of prior and nobody in the story treats Goku as if he's "powered up".

[Kaiosama]

That's like saying SSB Goku might be stronger than Beerus now. I don't think you can find any evidence that SSB Goku is stronger than SSB Vegito in the Future Trunks Arc. Even with KKX20, you guys are underestimating the power of the Potara multiplier. Look what it did with Kefla at SSJ2 Berserker! Now imagine two SSB's with the potara multiplier. Do you think Kefla could have beaten Vegito? Vegito used so much power that he burned through the fusion in like 10 minutes and his power was GoD level and compared to Beerus (without using the Kaioken).

I'm not even entirely sure that Vegito could be created anymore (at least with Vegeta and Goku's limit breaking forms) without immediately defusing.