Lord Beerus wrote:Jiren's wish was more of metaphor for his character, in regards to it being selfish. Jiren's main motivation for who he is today was because of his traumatic past and the circumstances of his wish was influenced. And by letting go of his past, and finally moving forward and realising there is more to life the solitude in strength, his wish was discharged as that was in itself tied to past he struggled to let go of. What Jiren's wish was specifically wasn't the important, it's what it represented for his character. He developed as person, understanding the meaning and significance of bonds and friendship, and because of that, Jiren's wish became pointless. And even it was revealed, it would serve no meaning at this stage.
Wouldn’t it have been more impactful for Jiren to win, but having fought Goku, make that realization and wish the universes back himself. That’s better writing and character growth. He would have been he one to have the opportunity to either go back or move forward not having it forced upon him through losing.
Jiren HAD to lose, because he need the teaching that his power isn't absolute and that trust can indeed beat power. He even commented how pointless it was for Freeza to save Goku, but then it was really their co-operation that lead to his defeat.
If Jiren won he would have kept to believe that his way is the right one, and that trust isn't needed when you have absolute strength.
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”
What I consider canonical
Spoiler:
Dragon Ball Manga
Jaco: The Galactic Patrolman
Yo! Son Goku and friends return
Battle of Gods and Resurrection “F”
Dragon Ball Super Manga + Movies
Lore from Toriyama
Dragon Ball DAIMA
Lord Beerus wrote:Jiren's wish was more of metaphor for his character, in regards to it being selfish. Jiren's main motivation for who he is today was because of his traumatic past and the circumstances of his wish was influenced. And by letting go of his past, and finally moving forward and realising there is more to life the solitude in strength, his wish was discharged as that was in itself tied to past he struggled to let go of. What Jiren's wish was specifically wasn't the important, it's what it represented for his character. He developed as person, understanding the meaning and significance of bonds and friendship, and because of that, Jiren's wish became pointless. And even it was revealed, it would serve no meaning at this stage.
Wouldn’t it have been more impactful for Jiren to win, but having fought Goku, make that realization and wish the universes back himself. That’s better writing and character growth. He would have been he one to have the opportunity to either go back or move forward not having it forced upon him through losing.
Jiren HAD to lose, because he need the teaching that his power isn't absolute and that trust can indeed beat power. He even commented how pointless it was for Freeza to save Goku, but then it was really their co-operation that lead to his defeat.
If Jiren won he would have kept to believe that his way is the right one, and that trust isn't needed when you have absolute strength.
I should rephrase this, the ideal would be for Jiren to lose but get the wish. He’s then given the option to get his wish and live in universe 7 or wish the universes back and makes the decision himself.
TheMikado wrote:
Wouldn’t it have been more impactful for Jiren to win, but having fought Goku, make that realization and wish the universes back himself. That’s better writing and character growth. He would have been he one to have the opportunity to either go back or move forward not having it forced upon him through losing.
Jiren HAD to lose, because he need the teaching that his power isn't absolute and that trust can indeed beat power. He even commented how pointless it was for Freeza to save Goku, but then it was really their co-operation that lead to his defeat.
If Jiren won he would have kept to believe that his way is the right one, and that trust isn't needed when you have absolute strength.
I should rephrase this, the ideal would be for Jiren to lose but get the wish. He’s then given the option to get his wish and live in universe 7 or wish the universes back and makes the decision himself.
Why should Jiren get the wish even though he lost?
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
emperior wrote:
Jiren HAD to lose, because he need the teaching that his power isn't absolute and that trust can indeed beat power. He even commented how pointless it was for Freeza to save Goku, but then it was really their co-operation that lead to his defeat.
If Jiren won he would have kept to believe that his way is the one, and that trust isn't needed when you have absolute strength.
I should rephrase this, the ideal would be for Jiren to lose but get the wish. He’s then given the option to get his wish and live in universe 7 or wish the universes back and makes the decision himself.
Why should Jiren get the wish even though he lost?
I’d consider him the best fighter since I’m pretty sure that’s what the original winner was supposed to be.
TheMikado wrote:
I should rephrase this, the ideal would be for Jiren to lose but get the wish. He’s then given the option to get his wish and live in universe 7 or wish the universes back and makes the decision himself.
Why should Jiren get the wish even though he lost?
I’d consider him the best fighter since I’m pretty sure that’s what the original winner was supposed to be.
He was far from the best fighter. That honour goes to either #17, Freeza, Goku or Vegeta.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Lord Beerus wrote:
He was far from the best fighter. That honour goes to either #17, Freeza, Goku or Vegeta.
Exactly. They got their hands dirty for the entirety of the tournament while Jiren was sitting on his ass meditating. He only decided to get involved when he had no other choice
TheMikado wrote:
I’d consider him the best fighter since I’m pretty sure that’s what the original winner was supposed to be.
He was far from the best fighter. That honour goes to either #17, Freeza, Goku or Vegeta.
Considering he took on multiple of those characters at once on his own I would think that would be debatable.
It doesn't matter. The tournament was a battle royale and Jiren acted as a lone wolf, while Goku, 17 and Freeza used teamwork to win the whole thing, and each of them had more eliminations than Jiren. Jiren getting the MVP because he has a higher battle power would have been completely stupid and against this tournament's principles.
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”
What I consider canonical
Spoiler:
Dragon Ball Manga
Jaco: The Galactic Patrolman
Yo! Son Goku and friends return
Battle of Gods and Resurrection “F”
Dragon Ball Super Manga + Movies
Lore from Toriyama
Dragon Ball DAIMA
Lord Beerus wrote:
He was far from the best fighter. That honour goes to either #17, Freeza, Goku or Vegeta.
Considering he took on multiple of those characters at once on his own I would think that would be debatable.
It doesn't matter. The tournament was a battle royale and Jiren acted as a lone wolf, while Goku, 17 and Freeza used teamwork to win the whole thing, and each of them had more eliminations than Jiren. Jiren getting the MVP because he has a higher battle power would have been completely stupid and against this tournament's principles.
What were the the principles?
I’m just going by the initial claim the “best” fighter got the wish and we had nothing more than that to go one. So I don’t see why Jiren wouldn’t be in the running if he was the toughest fighter to take down alone.
TheMikado wrote:
I’d consider him the best fighter since I’m pretty sure that’s what the original winner was supposed to be.
He was far from the best fighter. That honour goes to either #17, Freeza, Goku or Vegeta.
Considering he took on multiple of those characters at once on his own I would think that would be debatable.
Jiren sat around for most of the tournament not fighting until
Holy interested him, fight him for a bit and didn’t even bother to ring him out, then sat again until it was him in Toppo vs Goku/Freeza/Gohan/Vegeta. And he only really took out Vegeta of those 3. Aside from that he eliminates Hit and a Universe 3 character. So he has a total 3 eliminations. And you could conceivably argue that his refusal to try to eliminate U7 fighters early cost his team in the end.
By comparison Goku was involved in 16 character eliminations, Freeza was involved in 12, and Vegeta was involved in 14. And those guys weren’t sitting around for all but like 4 minutes of the tournament.
TheMikado wrote:
Considering he took on multiple of those characters at once on his own I would think that would be debatable.
It doesn't matter. The tournament was a battle royale and Jiren acted as a lone wolf, while Goku, 17 and Freeza used teamwork to win the whole thing, and each of them had more eliminations than Jiren. Jiren getting the MVP because he has a higher battle power would have been completely stupid and against this tournament's principles.
What were the the principles?
I’m just going by the initial claim the “best” fighter got the wish and we had nothing more than that to go one. So I don’t see why Jiren wouldn’t be in the running if he was the toughest fighter to take down alone.
The tournament's rules were basically created with teamwork in mind, which is why they even allowed potaras to be used. We are also told, at the end, that Zeno wanted the winner to be a virtuous and selfless fighter.
By the way even if what I'm writing may be just my headcanon, one thing is sure: Jiren couldn't have gotten the wish because the universes got erased as soon as they lost, so it would have been unlogical to keep Jiren safe even though his team lost just because he was the strongest fighter in the arena.
And you are basically saying that, hypothetically, you would give a player like Lionel Messi the MVP of a match he lost without even been the highest goalscorer or assistman just because, on paper, he is the best player on the pitch even though the defenders were able to stop him by applying lot of pressure.
In this case the true MVP of the tournament, by your logic, would be Aniraza as it took way more U7 members to take him down.
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”
What I consider canonical
Spoiler:
Dragon Ball Manga
Jaco: The Galactic Patrolman
Yo! Son Goku and friends return
Battle of Gods and Resurrection “F”
Dragon Ball Super Manga + Movies
Lore from Toriyama
Dragon Ball DAIMA
I feel like the whole "Zeno would have erased everyone had it been a selfish wish" to me made it irrelevant. It was most likely going to be something selfish. Goku was gonna wish Frieza back, Frieza would've wanted power over the gods, 17 wanted a cruise ship for his family originally.
The only one who wasn't selfish was Vegeta. And that says a lot to Super's writing and his progression as a character
MKCSTEALTH wrote:I feel like the whole "Zeno would have erased everyone had it been a selfish wish" to me made it irrelevant. It was most likely going to be something selfish. Goku was gonna wish Frieza back, Frieza would've wanted power over the gods, 17 wanted a cruise ship for his family originally.
The only one who wasn't selfish was Vegeta. And that says a lot to Super's writing and his progression as a character
Goku actually said he’d wish Freeza back with the Earth Dragon Balls regardless
Amir wrote:How is it bad writing? You keep saying Super dropped this plot point when they didn't. They constantly reminded us it has something to do with his past trauma, it was suggested Jiren wanted to erase those past issues in one way or another, with all of his friendship and trust complex, his wish was related to his obsession with the past, but those past issues got resolved in the end, and thus his wish is no longer relevant, as it was part of his issues. Jiren got what he needed and changed for the better. I just have to disagree when you say they forgot about it.
Yeah, nah. That's like them never revealing who Goku Black was, and someone here defending it by claiming it was clearly Zamasu from the present because of all the little hints that were dropped throughout the arc. It's piss poor writing to allude to something important that is literally the driving force behind the main antagonist, and sweeping it under the rug and hoping people forgot.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super
emperior wrote:
Jiren HAD to lose, because he need the teaching that his power isn't absolute and that trust can indeed beat power. He even commented how pointless it was for Freeza to save Goku, but then it was really their co-operation that lead to his defeat.
If Jiren won he would have kept to believe that his way is the right one, and that trust isn't needed when you have absolute strength.
I should rephrase this, the ideal would be for Jiren to lose but get the wish. He’s then given the option to get his wish and live in universe 7 or wish the universes back and makes the decision himself.
Why should Jiren get the wish even though he lost?
I think in manga the strongest character will get the wish,unless I am misremembering.
Why power levels are important?
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
TheMikado wrote:
I should rephrase this, the ideal would be for Jiren to lose but get the wish. He’s then given the option to get his wish and live in universe 7 or wish the universes back and makes the decision himself.
Why should Jiren get the wish even though he lost?
I think in manga the strongest character will get the wish,unless I am misremembering.
I thought it was “best” fighter for both but I’ll look it up . It could even be possible that the ending is different between the two.
Edit: just checked and beginning of chapter 30 definitely says “strongest fighter”. So it may not be the same in the manga.
Lord Beerus wrote:
Why should Jiren get the wish even though he lost?
I think in manga the strongest character will get the wish,unless I am misremembering.
I thought it was “best” fighter for both but I’ll look it up . It could even be possible that the ending is different between the two.
Edit: just checked and beginning of chapter 30 definitely says “strongest fighter”. So it may not be the same in the manga.
Now I’m hyped again.
Don't get your hopes up. Something as important as the ending of an arc is written in Toriyama's outlines, and we know that they are only allowed to change details, but they can't dare to touch important plot points. The winner of the ToP seems like an important plot point to me.
Hawk9211 wrote:
I think in manga the strongest character will get the wish,unless I am misremembering.
I thought it was “best” fighter for both but I’ll look it up . It could even be possible that the ending is different between the two.
Edit: just checked and beginning of chapter 30 definitely says “strongest fighter”. So it may not be the same in the manga.
Now I’m hyped again.
Don't get your hopes up. Something as important as the ending of an arc is written in Toriyama's outlines, and we know that they are only allowed to change details, but they can't dare to touch important plot points. The winner of the ToP seems like an important plot point to me.
I’m hoping it’s something general like
“Goku loses but universes get wished back anyway”
Ideally I think Jiren should have won and gotten the wish so I’ll hang onto hope for now.
17 winning wasn’t bad but not really organic for me.
Lord Beerus wrote:Jiren's wish was more of metaphor for his character, in regards to it being selfish. Jiren's main motivation for who he is today was because of his traumatic past and the circumstances of his wish was influenced. And by letting go of his past, and finally moving forward and realising there is more to life the solitude in strength, his wish was discharged as that was in itself tied to past he struggled to let go of. What Jiren's wish was specifically wasn't the important, it's what it represented for his character. He developed as person, understanding the meaning and significance of bonds and friendship, and because of that, Jiren's wish became pointless. And even it was revealed, it would serve no meaning at this stage.
Wouldn’t it have been more impactful for Jiren to win, but having fought Goku, make that realization and wish the universes back himself. That’s better writing and character growth. He would have been he one to have the opportunity to either go back or move forward not having it forced upon him through losing.
So it would have been more impactful if Goku's form that was introduced in concept 100 episodes prior, the same form that he fought to burst through his limits and harness this new ability throughout the tournament, for him to have this form be hyped up in marketing and throughout the tournament...Just for Goku to lose anyway?
Spoiler:
Super carries on much of Dragon Ball and Z's charm in ways that might not immediately be obvious, while also bringing something new to the table. I certainly can't think of any previous arcs like Goku Black, and, for all its problems, the Tournament of Power is possibly the most ambitious storytelling endeavor in series history as far as how its narrative unfolds. It's also a thrill ride, which is all I wanted and exactly what I got. Super also canonizes decades old fan theories in ways that very naturally tie into the overall fabric of Dragon Ball's world in satisfying ways. All in all, Dragon Ball, Z, and Super are all well worth experiencing.