The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

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Majin Buu
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Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by Majin Buu » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:27 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:True, he cares momentarily only for Toriyama to ruin it with more gags which is no excuse as Fat Boo also served a gag character purpose and Toriyama created legitimate development for him like learning morality, helping cure people, risk his life to stop Kid Boo all of which was done with sincerity Gotenks never properly got.
Agree to disagree then. I think what we got was enough to get across that he cared. Gotenks isn't a very deep character so I don't need anything more than that.
Vijay wrote:Btw, Gotenks was more of Namek/Frieza Arc Vegeta-ripoff
Um. Gotenks is a comedic character that tends to not take things seriously, Freeza Arc Vegata was neither of those things. The only similarity they share is their enormous egos, which is fitting considering half of Gotenks is Kid Trunks (though admittedly, Gotenks is decidedly more Trunks than Goten), who more or less inherited Vegeta's ego.

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Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:55 pm

I think the OP has a point, I'd never looked at the Buu arc that way before.

As a parody it was a bit too obvious, but that's the point I guess. And since Toriyama was ending DBZ that way it worked out that he stay humorist and take digs at his own work.
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Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by KBABZ » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:55 pm

Again I wouldn't say it's a parody as such, but there's definitely a huge drive to subvert the expectations and tropes that have been used up until that point whilst also playing a lot of them straight anyway. If it were a parody it would probably feel more like SD or Neko-Majin.

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Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by Desassina » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:23 pm

It's not a self parody as much as it is subversive of the series' long run:

1. Super Saiyan bargain sale: no longer the legend. SSJ2 goes back to an ascended state and the third one jumps the shark. Unlocked potential makes its definitive return.
2. The end of Pure Boo is a joint effort: with the help of Mr. Satan and Majin Boo, the universe handed its energy for the Genki-dama, which finally defeated its oppoent.
3. Absorption does not dispose of bridging enemies, but serves as a temporary removal of our heroes, and it's not permanent with the possible depowering of Majin Boo.

And what it prepares for in DBS is the Gods' hierarchy, the modern depiction of a societized world in Dragon Ball, through mysticism and new places past Freeza's space.

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Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by Majin Buu » Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:09 am

KBABZ wrote:Again I wouldn't say it's a parody as such, but there's definitely a huge drive to subvert the expectations and tropes that have been used up until that point whilst also playing a lot of them straight anyway. If it were a parody it would probably feel more like SD or Neko-Majin.
True, an outright parody would be more like something akin to Neko Majin; but perhaps Toriyama went about it in a more subtle way than he usually would given he was still writing for what had long ago become a fighting series? A "stealth parody" if you will?

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Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by KBABZ » Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:56 am

Majin Buu wrote:
KBABZ wrote:Again I wouldn't say it's a parody as such, but there's definitely a huge drive to subvert the expectations and tropes that have been used up until that point whilst also playing a lot of them straight anyway. If it were a parody it would probably feel more like SD or Neko-Majin.
True, an outright parody would be more like something akin to Neko Majin; but perhaps Toriyama went about it in a more subtle way than he usually would given he was still writing for what had long ago become a fighting series? A "stealth parody" if you will?
Well he definitely went in the opposite direction for a lot of the expected tropes, but I think if it were a stealth parody then the subverting would feel like it had a larger point. To me subverting tropes doesn't automatically constitute a parody; normally a parody would call attention to the things it's subverting to make a point about it, something Neko-Majin does but not Buu. For example, Super Saiyan 3 being so powerful that it's largely impractical due to the power drain would be a great start towards a parody, like, "oh no, we relied on Transformations so much that we didn't notice the downsides! Better not do that ever again!". However because this facet is not emphasized and used to make a point about relying on transformations (which, while it does happen at the end is hugely negated by Gotenks' less-than-casual use of it) means it's just a subversion. Gohan having his power unlocked and then immediately getting defeated would have been another prime area to point out the reliance on power-ups, but the story instead uses it more as typical DBZ battle drama, as does Goku forgetting about the SSJ power drain when fighting Kid Buu. Goku and Vegeta rejecting the Potara Earrings isn't played as a parody and instead is done as a way to make the finale have more tension via Saiyan pride (because Vegetto would have mopped the floor with Kid Buu).

As I mentioned earlier it's like The Last Jedi by playing tropes either against the grain or initially playing them straight before immediately subverting them for shock and surprise. I wouldn't be surprised to hear if Toriyama did this to not just surprise the audience but to also keep things interesting for himself writing it. By this point he had already done the exponentially popular "big overpowering villain beats the crap out of the over-optimistic heroes and forces them to learn new techniques to win" trope eight times by that point*, so subverting and averting the expected story elements would have been an easy way to make the story interesting whilst still making it feel like Dragon Ball (particularly since the series used to have a history of overtly doing this with Journey to the West and other Wuxia stories).

*Tao, Daimao, Raditz, Vegeta, Ginyu Force, Frieza, Androids and Cell

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Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by Majin Buu » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:35 am

KBABZ wrote:ected tropes, but I think if it were a stealth parody then the subverting would feel like it had a larger point. To me subverting tropes doesn't automatically constitute a parody; normally a parody would call attention to the things it's subverting to make a point about it, something Neko-Majin does but not Buu. For example, Super Saiyan 3 being so powerful that it's largely impractical due to the power drain would be a great start towards a parody, like, "oh no, we relied on Transformations so much that we didn't notice the downsides! Better not do that ever again!". However because this facet is not emphasized and used to make a point about relying on transformations (which, while it does happen at the end is hugely negated by Gotenks' less-than-casual use of it) means it's just a subversion. Gohan having his power unlocked and then immediately getting defeated would have been another prime area to point out the reliance on power-ups, but the story instead uses it more as typical DBZ battle drama, as does Goku forgetting about the SSJ power drain when fighting Kid Buu. Goku and Vegeta rejecting the Potara Earrings isn't played as a parody and instead is done as a way to make the finale have more tension via Saiyan pride (because Vegetto would have mopped the floor with Kid Buu).

As I mentioned earlier it's like The Last Jedi by playing tropes either against the grain or initially playing them straight before immediately subverting them for shock and surprise.
I think what you're getting at when you say the subversion should have a larger point is deconstruction, not parody. Parody is exaggerating things for comedic effect, with comedic effect being the main point. Deconstruction involves revealing underlying truths that were previously unacknowledged in the text in order to make a point, which is more along the lines of the stuff you're talking about with transformations and power ups, and The Last Jedi for that matter. I'm suggesting stealth parody here because I think much of what Toriyama does here fits the profile of what someone writing a parody would do while having to remain in the confines of an earnest fighting series, so the exaggeration and subversion is there, but the comedic effect is largely downplayed.

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Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by KBABZ » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:42 am

Majin Buu wrote:I think what you're getting at when you say the subversion should have a larger point is deconstruction, not parody. Parody is exaggerating things for comedic effect, with comedic effect being the main point.
For me at least the point of a parody is to get the audience to laugh by going "hey look how silly this is!"

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Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:08 pm

No. As much as I enjoy the Majin Boo arc, calling it a self-parody (outside Gotenks' shenanigans) is giving it a little too much credit. It's contrivances and faulty logic is just a result of Toriyama becoming disinterested in writing for the series and having little input from his editors.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by ABED » Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:15 pm

I don't think it's a stealth parody. Plenty of shows hang a lantern or lamp shading tropes they've leaned on or absurd plot points.
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Re: The Buu Arc as a Self Parody?

Post by Hawk9211 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:24 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:No. As much as I enjoy the Majin Boo arc, calling it a self-parody (outside Gotenks' shenanigans) is giving it a little too much credit. It's contrivances and faulty logic is just a result of Toriyama becoming disinterested in writing for the series and having little input from his editors.
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