Shifting The Focus From Goku

[sintzu]

You want something different, but still have it be Dragon Ball (i.e. the same, familiar, etc.)

I'm just saying that changing wouldn't be an issue. And that it is possible to do and keep everything but with Uub as a main character.

If you're going to keep everything the same then why bother changing in the first place ? Dragon Ball is Goku and without him it's not DB anymore. That's of course not to say we couldn't get a limited series or OVA focused on Uub or someone else but not with the main series.

[ABED]

I did not forget the changes the series went through. It's a strength of the story, but at the core it was mostly Goku's story, and it suffered towards the end when it tried to put someone else in the driver's seat. If the series isn't interesting anymore with Goku as the lead, my guess is the issue is more than Goku. It's probably time to wrap the story up. DB is Goku. Why not spin off a character into their own story instead of making someone else the main character?

I'm just saying that changing wouldn't be an issue. And that it is possible to do and keep everything but with Uub as a main character.

I don't think it's possible to change main characters and keep everything else.

[JohnnyCashKami]

Dragon Ball is all about Goku so if you want a show that isn't about him, then Dragon Ball isn't for you.

It's like, you know, expecting to watch Supernatural without the boys (Sam and Dean) and we all know that just wouldn't work at all (The CW tried to make spin-offs and they tanked hard).

[ABED]

Dragon Ball is all about Goku so if you want a show that isn't about him, then Dragon Ball isn't for you.

It's like, you know, expecting to watch Supernatural without the boys (Sam and Dean) and we all know that just wouldn't work at all (The CW tried to make spin-offs and they tanked hard).

Well, those were attempted spin-offs, and plenty have worked. Wayward Sisters had some potential.

The difference is this is the same show but with a different lead.

[zDBZ]

If Dragon Ball wasnt about Goku, would you still watch it? And if they made the main character Uub, how would you like his personality and drive to get stronger be?

Yes, I would. How long would depend upon the quality.

Dragon Ball's turned the spotlight on other characters already. Somebody mentioned the Future Trunks arc from Super, but Toriyama himself played with the idea. While Goku's clearly the main character of the Piccolo saga, a big chunk of the narrative is given over to the group led by Tenshinhan and Master Roshi. The Saiyan, Freeza, and Cell sagas are proper ensembles IMO; Gohan, Krillin, Piccolo, Vegeta (from Freeza on) and Trunks (in Cell) carry just as much of the narrative weight, if not more of it, than Goku. And for the first two-thirds of the Buu saga, Goku is a prominent but supporting/mentor figure. And much of that material represents the best of the series to me. Goku was an integral part of the cast through all of it, but I think it's clear the series can continue on without him in the lead when it's written well.

But I think the chance for Uub to take the reigns has passed. If there was going to be a continuation or spin-off of Dragon Ball that capitalized on that idea, it should've been after the end of the Buu saga, when the idea was set up. GT could have been the adventures of Uub, Pan, and a whole new cast of younger characters, with Goku and the old guard as mentors or supporting figures. A proper identity for Uub could've been established that way, and the right tone and types of stories figured out. But that didn't happen, and now the moment's passed. I would say that same about Gohan, who would've been my choice to take over as the main character. The time for that was in the Buu saga proper, when he was the protagonist up until the Buutenks fight. For Gohan, or Uub, or anyone else to take over now, the way things were left at the end of Super, would be as abrupt, arbitrary, and unsatisfying as Goku's return to the spotlight was at that moment in Buu. You'd need to do the narrative legwork, which would take time, and for Gohan and Uub, you'd have the additional problem of repeating ideas that had already appeared in Dragon Ball. "But this time, we'll follow through!" isn't always enough of a reason to do that.

[ABED]

Damn near EVERY show with one main character still gives significant screen time to the supporting cast, that doesn't make them ensembles necessarily. The story was worse off when it put Gohan in the drivers seat.

I don't have a problem with a spin off, but making Goku a teacher wouldn't make it a spin-off. It would just be DB with a new main character. Stories reflect their main characters and characters like Uub and Gohan are way too earnest to be the lead. This sort of thing only works in a coda.

you'd have the additional problem of repeating ideas that had already appeared in Dragon Ball

And therein lies the problem. Any story that goes a significant amount of time will inevitably cover a ton of ground, so much so that nearly everything will feel like a retread. The Simpsons suffers from that problem. It's why I've come to the conclusion that stories should last a handful of years and then end with grace.

[Grimlock]

Dragon Ball Can change in ways that can be for the good in the case of Z, or for the worse in the case of things Like GT.

There will be people who'll disagree and say that Dragon Ball GT is good, regardless of that, there are more evidences showing that changes were mostly good ones besides Dragon Ball Z.

But I want something different thats not the boring generic show that is Dragon Ball Super. And with the way they are using goku in the series is not interesting anymore.

Yeah, I was never interested in main characters but the way they handled Goku recently... Poor guy.

IDragon Ball is Goku and without him it's not DB anymore.

Well, there are works proving this wrong (yeah, they are not "main series" but if they were, it could work just fine), but anyway.

[ABED]

Well, there are works proving this wrong

The occasional absence doesn't prove this wrong.

Yeah, I was never interested in main characters

I don't know what the hell this means. You were literally never interested i main characters? Then why start any story?

[Kaiza_Toshiyuki]

The series has gotten very predictable, and although Its been predictable all this time, its not been THIS predictable. We knew frieza was coming back at the end of the tournament (Although I will admit that having 17 survive was a nice treat, it doesn't really make up for everything else). The surprise at the end of the Future trunks arc was absolute crap, and it ruined the surprise earlier of Vegetto failing to beat Zamasu and Trunks coming in with an @SS pull spirit sword to deal the final blow.

[Doctor.]

Yeah, I think having Goku in a mentor position would be the best you can do with the character as he continuously gets older and we stop having the 10-year gap to work with. A Batman Beyond type of deal would work really well.

[zDBZ]

Yeah, I think having Goku in a mentor position would be the best you can do with the character as he continuously gets older and we stop having the 10-year gap to work with. A Batman Beyond type of deal would work really well.

Now I'm imagining Goku in his mountain home, hair gone white, long beard and mustache, sunglasses, staff, and Hawaiian shirt. Prospective students don't have to bring him dirty magazines or a cute girl; they need to bring him a ten-course dinner.

[Attitudefan]

I think Gohan failed as the main lead because he was never written--prior to his lead take-over--to be a fighter/defender for a action series. Gohan's character fits more with a slife-of-life/drama series as he is opposed to fighting but is forced into these situations. A show about training and getting stronger to defeat the "big bad" is not made for a character like Gohan. I see more parallels with Akane from Psycho Pass (someone who is a reluctant hero who makes judgement based on emotions/ideology rather than with tact and will) with Gohan than Gohan does with Goku. Henceforth, Gohan's mini-arc with the Great Saiyaman is much better suited for his character as it is more based on emotional drama which can turn to comedy or be serious. Gohan falls face-flat when it comes to his character in a tournament styled fighting show.

I think this is why Goku's archetype works so well in a tournament style fighting series. He's not an emotionally interesting character but he is, instead, a fun-loving guy who just wants to be the best fighter in town. He's a great static character and the emotion is invested not for Goku's internal struggles but the opponents he faces. Therefore, it is his challengers that have more character building and it is their internal and external dilemmas that lead them into trouble in which Goku is the solution for.

Another fighting archetype is the Kenshiro archetype. Rather than fun-loving, he is deadly serious. In a way, however, the Kenshiro archetype is really similar to Goku's portrayal: they are static and the world around them is more interesting and causing the problems. Kenshiro is just there to show up and clean house, exactly like Goku.

Personally, I think why the Piccolo Daimao arc works well is that, when Goku is out of the picture, Tenshinhan takes over. We see him reformed. The investment to follow Ten is continual reformed growth as a character. Unlike Gohan, Tenshinhan is really not too disimilar to Goku or Kenshiro: he really just wants to train, fight, and be the strongest. Viewers are emotionally invested because we see that now Tenshinhan's reformation will be set in stone once he fights, not for himself, but for others. Unlike Gohan, Tenshinhan is still more of a fighting figure rather than a reluctant hero. This reformation is displayed with Vegeta and Piccolo, whom they now have people they fight for but they still LOVE fighting. Gohan was the wrong pick to be a lead and Toriyama is just not a strong enough author to write well for a reluctant fighting lead. Vegeta, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Yamcha would all make better leads than Gohan to replace Goku.

[Kaiza_Toshiyuki]

Dragon Ball Can change in ways that can be for the good in the case of Z, or for the worse in the case of things Like GT.

There will be people who'll disagree and say that Dragon Ball GT is good, regardless of that, there are more evidences showing that changes were mostly good ones besides Dragon Ball Z.

First off, I love GT despite its short comings. I simply used it as it is the most well known example. Second off, I only used Z as an example because it is the Biggest change and it is also the most well known.

[zDBZ]

I think Gohan failed as the main lead because he was never written--prior to his lead take-over--to be a fighter/defender for a action series. Gohan's character fits more with a slife-of-life/drama series as he is opposed to fighting but is forced into these situations. A show about training and getting stronger to defeat the "big bad" is not made for a character like Gohan. I see more parallels with Akane from Psycho Pass (someone who is a reluctant hero who makes judgement based on emotions/ideology rather than with tact and will) with Gohan than Gohan does with Goku. Henceforth, Gohan's mini-arc with the Great Saiyaman is much better suited for his character as it is more based on emotional drama which can turn to comedy or be serious. Gohan falls face-flat when it comes to his character in a tournament styled fighting show.

I think this is why Goku's archetype works so well in a tournament style fighting series. He's not an emotionally interesting character but he is, instead, a fun-loving guy who just wants to be the best fighter in town. He's a great static character and the emotion is invested not for Goku's internal struggles but the opponents he faces. Therefore, it is his challengers that have more character building and it is their internal and external dilemmas that lead them into trouble in which Goku is the solution for.

Another fighting archetype is the Kenshiro archetype. Rather than fun-loving, he is deadly serious. In a way, however, the Kenshiro archetype is really similar to Goku's portrayal: they are static and the world around them is more interesting and causing the problems. Kenshiro is just there to show up and clean house, exactly like Goku.

Personally, I think why the Piccolo Daimao arc works well is that, when Goku is out of the picture, Tenshinhan takes over. We see him reformed. The investment to follow Ten is continual reformed growth as a character. Unlike Gohan, Tenshinhan is really not too disimilar to Goku or Kenshiro: he really just wants to train, fight, and be the strongest. Viewers are emotionally invested because we see that now Tenshinhan's reformation will be set in stone once he fights, not for himself, but for others. Unlike Gohan, Tenshinhan is still more of a fighting figure rather than a reluctant hero. This reformation is displayed with Vegeta and Piccolo, whom they now have people they fight for but they still LOVE fighting. Gohan was the wrong pick to be a lead and Toriyama is just not a strong enough author to write well for a reluctant fighting lead. Vegeta, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Yamcha would all make better leads than Gohan to replace Goku.

Not to pull this thread away from its main theme, but the series, starting with the King Piccolo saga and especially from the Saiyan saga on, left much of the "fun-loving, tournament-style fighting" behind in favor of higher stakes, "fate of the world" battles and darker (not always deeper) storylines, ones where I actually think Goku saw a fair amount of development and emotional interest. But much of the red meat of the story in those arcs was given over to other characters, Gohan among the most prominent. And the reluctance to fight, at least in the Cell and early Buu sagas, is a plus IMO, not a minus.

But there's still a Gohan-as-hero thread on the first page of GFD if you'd like to pick this up there.

[ABED]

I don't think it's a plus for DB since it's a story that inherently revels in fighting. Putting a reluctant hero in the main character role changes what DB is about.

And yes, the stakes did get higher, mostly as a result of the power scale, but very often those end of the world situations were a result of the protagonists desire for a fight. Put Gohan in the drivers seat, the very nature of the show changes.

[Attitudefan]

Not to pull this thread away from its main theme, but the series, starting with the King Piccolo saga and especially from the Saiyan saga on, left much of the "fun-loving, tournament-style fighting" behind in favor of higher stakes, "fate of the world" battles and darker (not always deeper) storylines, ones where I actually think Goku saw a fair amount of development and emotional interest. But much of the red meat of the story in those arcs was given over to other characters, Gohan among the most prominent. And the reluctance to fight, at least in the Cell and early Buu sagas, is a plus IMO, not a minus.

But there's still a Gohan-as-hero thread on the first page of GFD if you'd like to pick this up there.

I don't know if my point isn't clear, but I will clarify: even though it moved away from the tournament, the plot is still driven as if it is a tournament fighter series. Beat the underling, progress to the bigger foe. The formulae has not changed since the first Tenkaichi Budokai, it is just guised as something deeper (Raditz->Nappa->Vegeta. Zarbon->Ginyu->Freeza; the stakes get bigger because the foe is stronger than the last. Not much different from Goku fighting Chichi to Tenshinhan to the big bad Piccolo).

I don't think it's a plus for DB since it's a story that inherently revels in fighting. Putting a reluctant hero in the main character role changes what DB is about.

And yes, the stakes did get higher, mostly as a result of the power scale, but very often those end of the world situations were a result of the protagonists desire for a fight. Put Gohan in the drivers seat, the very nature of the show changes.

Exactly my point. Thanks.

[zDBZ]

Not to pull this thread away from its main theme, but the series, starting with the King Piccolo saga and especially from the Saiyan saga on, left much of the "fun-loving, tournament-style fighting" behind in favor of higher stakes, "fate of the world" battles and darker (not always deeper) storylines, ones where I actually think Goku saw a fair amount of development and emotional interest. But much of the red meat of the story in those arcs was given over to other characters, Gohan among the most prominent. And the reluctance to fight, at least in the Cell and early Buu sagas, is a plus IMO, not a minus.

But there's still a Gohan-as-hero thread on the first page of GFD if you'd like to pick this up there.

I don't know if my point isn't clear, but I will clarify: even though it moved away from the tournament, the plot is still driven as if it is a tournament fighter series. Beat the underling, progress to the bigger foe. The formulae has not changed since the first Tenkaichi Budokai, it is just guised as something deeper (Raditz->Nappa->Vegeta. Zarbon->Ginyu->Freeza; the stakes get bigger because the foe is stronger than the last. Not much different from Goku fighting Chichi to Tenshinhan to the big bad Piccolo).

That is clearer, but I'd argue that the higher stakes necessarily change the nature of the story, even if the routine of working up the ladder of opponents is similar. The motivations certainly shifted in the Saiyan/Freeza/Cell era; not that "battling for the sake of a good fight" and "improving for the sake of it" aren't still factors (certainly that's the case with Goku), but protecting the planet and defending individuals/people are more pressing concerns in the series at this time.

[DBZAOTA482]

Dragon Ball is all about Goku so if you want a show that isn't about him, then Dragon Ball isn't for you.

That's bull. Goku may be the main character but the series was never just about him. It's a story with an ensemble cast.

Anyways, I would definitely welcome Goku taking a stand or something. His character is incredibly stale at this point and the only way to make him interesting is either have him surpass his limits for the uptenth time or get a new form.

[KBABZ]

surpass his limits for the uptenth time or get a new form.

Those are the same thing!

[Desassina]

I've been suggesting something for a while now: the only thing that is more permanent than death in Dragon Ball is reincarnation. Let Goku become someone else by showing that connection, so that we can follow the series without his face, but the promise that this new character will someday realize his potential. In fact, let him be a human instead of a Saiyan on Earth populated by hybrids, so that he is the underdog without transformations.