"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Lord Beerus]

So I was reading manga ToP again to confirm the 17 thing, and well, I was wrong when I said that there's no screen time about him and Freeza talking with each other much, since in hindsight, it's blatantly obvious he was planning the "self destruct":

https://i.imgur.com/Gshv3I9.png

The plan is still weird, but hey, like I said before, they probably just trusted Goku that much lol.

Oh Yeah, they spoke before about it. Toyotaro does do a good job of trying to keep continuity of original Dragonball. 17 couldn't self destruct due to Krillin wishing away their bombs back in Cell saga.
IIRC TOEI didn't understand this. They contradicted the Dragonball manga with 17 trying to self destruct and saying he survived it by luck. I also like the way the manga pointed out that 17 couldn't be sensed. Making his hidden presence believable. It's one of the reasons why I don't mind if TOEI can follow the manga as the comic stays ahead for a while to keep the writing consistent on both ends.

Just because #17 had the bomb removed from inside him doesn't mean he can't pull the same "blow yourself up" technique like other characters in Dragon Ball can do.

[PFM18]

So I was reading manga ToP again to confirm the 17 thing, and well, I was wrong when I said that there's no screen time about him and Freeza talking with each other much, since in hindsight, it's blatantly obvious he was planning the "self destruct":

https://i.imgur.com/Gshv3I9.png

The plan is still weird, but hey, like I said before, they probably just trusted Goku that much lol.

Oh Yeah, they spoke before about it. Toyotaro does do a good job of trying to keep continuity of original Dragonball. 17 couldn't self destruct due to Krillin wishing away their bombs back in Cell saga.
IIRC TOEI didn't understand this. They contradicted the Dragonball manga with 17 trying to self destruct and saying he survived it by luck. I also like the way the manga pointed out that 17 couldn't be sensed. Making his hidden presence believable. It's one of the reasons why I don't mind if TOEI can follow the manga as the comic stays ahead for a while to keep the writing consistent on both ends.

That doesn't actually contradict anything. Chaotzu, Vegeta, and Goku in GT all did or attempted to blow themselves up simply with their ki manipulation abilities. A bomb isn't actually needed to blow themselves up in this series, as proven multiple times. Hell, basically anybody could blow themselves up if they wanted to and had the necessary ki ability.

Oh and I thought you weren't saying that the anime need be an adaption of the manga from a "who did it better" point of view?

[TobyS]

So I was reading manga ToP again to confirm the 17 thing, and well, I was wrong when I said that there's no screen time about him and Freeza talking with each other much, since in hindsight, it's blatantly obvious he was planning the "self destruct":

https://i.imgur.com/Gshv3I9.png

The plan is still weird, but hey, like I said before, they probably just trusted Goku that much lol.

Oh Yeah, they spoke before about it. Toyotaro does do a good job of trying to keep continuity of original Dragonball. 17 couldn't self destruct due to Krillin wishing away their bombs back in Cell saga.
IIRC TOEI didn't understand this. They contradicted the Dragonball manga with 17 trying to self destruct and saying he survived it by luck. I also like the way the manga pointed out that 17 couldn't be sensed. Making his hidden presence believable. It's one of the reasons why I don't mind if TOEI can follow the manga as the comic stays ahead for a while to keep the writing consistent on both ends.

That doesn't actually contradict anything. Chaotzu, Vegeta, and Goku in GT all did or attempted to blow themselves up simply with their ki manipulation abilities. A bomb isn't actually needed to blow themselves up in this series, as proven multiple times. Hell, basically anybody could blow themselves up if they wanted to and had the necessary ki ability.

Oh and I thought you weren't saying that the anime need be an adaption of the manga from a "who did it better" point of view?

But the androids have never had formal ki training.
We also aren't sure how it works when they get stronger, are they increasing their (undetectable) ki? Or strengthening the power source Gero gave em? If they aren't strengthening their ki, or less of their overall power was made up of their ki, the explosion would be even less impressive/possible...
I can see why some people would find it harder to believe.

[prince212]

Just because #17 had the bomb removed from inside him doesn't mean he can't pull the same "blow yourself up" technique like other characters in Dragon Ball can do.

Right , the only contradiction is that when other characters did the blow yourself up ( chaoz and vegeta ) , they didn’t fail , it was not a gamble . So lucky a17

[TKA]

Just because #17 had the bomb removed from inside him doesn't mean he can't pull the same "blow yourself up" technique like other characters in Dragon Ball can do.

This is one of those "technical" things that nobody really buys.

It's obvious as shit from the writing that they're referencing the fact that 17 had a bomb inside him. They even talk about it completely differently from how they talk about Vegeta's self-destruct move from earlier.

So yes, while he technically could've learned a self-destruct move offscreen, it's clearly not what the scene is alluding to.

Dunno about you, but I prefer a Dragonball where I don't have to make up head-canon that goes against the spirit of the narrative just to be able to justify the events that happened.

[Marlowe89]

Androids being able to self-destruct without their fucking self-destruction bombs is inherently counterintuitive and goes against every plot-related reason these characters had back in the Cell arc to intentionally use them in the first place.

Even if you could somehow rationalize it out of an obvious internal inconsistency, the entire idea of anyone surviving literally blowing themselves up "by luck, bro!" without any regenerative capabilities is awful storytelling.

[Lord Beerus]

Oh Yeah, they spoke before about it. Toyotaro does do a good job of trying to keep continuity of original Dragonball. 17 couldn't self destruct due to Krillin wishing away their bombs back in Cell saga.
IIRC TOEI didn't understand this. They contradicted the Dragonball manga with 17 trying to self destruct and saying he survived it by luck. I also like the way the manga pointed out that 17 couldn't be sensed. Making his hidden presence believable. It's one of the reasons why I don't mind if TOEI can follow the manga as the comic stays ahead for a while to keep the writing consistent on both ends.

That doesn't actually contradict anything. Chaotzu, Vegeta, and Goku in GT all did or attempted to blow themselves up simply with their ki manipulation abilities. A bomb isn't actually needed to blow themselves up in this series, as proven multiple times. Hell, basically anybody could blow themselves up if they wanted to and had the necessary ki ability.

Oh and I thought you weren't saying that the anime need be an adaption of the manga from a "who did it better" point of view?

But the androids have never had formal ki training.
We also aren't sure how it works when they get stronger, are they increasing their (undetectable) ki? Or strengthening the power source Gero gave em? If they aren't strengthening their ki, or less of their overall power was made up of their ki, the explosion would be even less impressive/possible...
I can see why some people would find it harder to believe.

It's never implied anywhere you need formal Ki training to blow yourself up. Some characters can just do it spontaneously.

[prince212]

I don’t remember it so well , wasn’t a17 building a shield when he exploded? Even more complicated

[Miracles]

So I was reading manga ToP again to confirm the 17 thing, and well, I was wrong when I said that there's no screen time about him and Freeza talking with each other much, since in hindsight, it's blatantly obvious he was planning the "self destruct":

https://i.imgur.com/Gshv3I9.png

The plan is still weird, but hey, like I said before, they probably just trusted Goku that much lol.

Oh Yeah, they spoke before about it. Toyotaro does do a good job of trying to keep continuity of original Dragonball. 17 couldn't self destruct due to Krillin wishing away their bombs back in Cell saga.
IIRC TOEI didn't understand this. They contradicted the Dragonball manga with 17 trying to self destruct and saying he survived it by luck. I also like the way the manga pointed out that 17 couldn't be sensed. Making his hidden presence believable. It's one of the reasons why I don't mind if TOEI can follow the manga as the comic stays ahead for a while to keep the writing consistent on both ends.

Just because #17 had the bomb removed from inside him doesn't mean he can't pull the same "blow yourself up" technique like other characters in Dragon Ball can do.

True. However it was never established that 17 had a special technique that could blow himself up like Chaotzu or Vegeta. Sure we can assume the scene where 17 blew himself up in the TOP as having the capability now. However, that spur of the moment scene also makes one think TOEI referenced the androids bombs. It had no explanation for it other than 17 surviving by luck. That's why it seems like a contradiction.

So I was reading manga ToP again to confirm the 17 thing, and well, I was wrong when I said that there's no screen time about him and Freeza talking with each other much, since in hindsight, it's blatantly obvious he was planning the "self destruct":

https://i.imgur.com/Gshv3I9.png

The plan is still weird, but hey, like I said before, they probably just trusted Goku that much lol.

Oh Yeah, they spoke before about it. Toyotaro does do a good job of trying to keep continuity of original Dragonball. 17 couldn't self destruct due to Krillin wishing away their bombs back in Cell saga.
IIRC TOEI didn't understand this. They contradicted the Dragonball manga with 17 trying to self destruct and saying he survived it by luck. I also like the way the manga pointed out that 17 couldn't be sensed. Making his hidden presence believable. It's one of the reasons why I don't mind if TOEI can follow the manga as the comic stays ahead for a while to keep the writing consistent on both ends.

That doesn't actually contradict anything. Chaotzu, Vegeta, and Goku in GT all did or attempted to blow themselves up simply with their ki manipulation abilities. A bomb isn't actually needed to blow themselves up in this series, as proven multiple times. Hell, basically anybody could blow themselves up if they wanted to and had the necessary ki ability.

Oh and I thought you weren't saying that the anime need be an adaption of the manga from a "who did it better" point of view?

That's right. I'm still not speaking from a "who did it better" standpoint. The manga has Toriyama and Toytaro, only two people to check on the story.
TOEI has many writers, naturally plot points can become inconsistent or even contradicted.
For example, 17 doesn't have Ki and TOEI never showed Androids having the ability to self detonate without their bombs. So it appears like a contradiction from the established canon.

This is why I said the manga could give the anime a basis since they have a singular platform to follow that's easier to stay true to classic DB.

[prince212]

Is there any image of volume 8 introduction ?
I mean something like this

Spoiler:

, but the one coming in this last volume

[Lord Beerus]

Just because #17 had the bomb removed from inside him doesn't mean he can't pull the same "blow yourself up" technique like other characters in Dragon Ball can do.

This is one of those "technical" things that nobody really buys.

It's obvious as shit from the writing that they're referencing the fact that 17 had a bomb inside him. They even talk about it completely differently from how they talk about Vegeta's self-destruct move from earlier.

So yes, while he technically could've learned a self-destruct move offscreen, it's clearly not what the scene is alluding to.

Dunno about you, but I prefer a Dragonball where I don't have to make up head-canon that goes against the spirit of the narrative just to be able to justify the events that happened.

It's really semantics at this point. Both Vegeta's technique and #17's technique ultimately fall the same category of "user unleashes attacks that may also harm the user".

Androids being able to self-destruct without their fucking self-destruction bombs is inherently counterintuitive and goes against every plot-related reason these characters had back in the Cell arc to intentionally use them in the first place.

Even if you could somehow rationalize it out of an obvious internal inconsistency, the entire idea of anyone surviving an attempt to literally blow themselves up "by luck, bro!" is awful storytelling.

#17 isn't like #19 or #16 where they're 100% artificial and can't use Ki at all. #17 is a mostly human composed cyborg that can still utilize and manipulate ki, giving him access to Ki based attacks -- which include being able blow yourself up like several other characters in the show were able to. Hell, the case with #17 isn't even the most egregious case of being able to survive such a scenario.

[Draconic]

Trunks also tried to blow himself up against Zamasu. It's a pretty basic technique. No reason to believe 17 wouldn't be able to do it.

[Marlowe89]

#17 isn't like #19 or #16 where they're 100% artificial and can't use Ki at all.

18 isn't purely artificial either. Did that stop her from threatening to use her bomb in a last-ditch effort?

Nothing implies that 17 suddenly knew how to do what actually very few characters showed themselves capable of in the original story. Vegeta's self-destruction is called "sutemi" as opposed to 17's "jibaku", was specifically described as his technique during the tournament, and even has its own Daizenshuu entry in supplemental material. I couldn't possibly reiterate enough just how much of a massive stretch it is to even call it the same move.

At least with Cell, you had an ever-so-remote chance of him surviving his explosion because he could regenerate from his core. 17 doesn't have that privilege. Even if he did, you'd have to assume that he learned something like this off-screen since the Cell arc to justify its frankly ridiculous inclusion, but that's nothing more than post-hoc headcanon.

[batistabus]

I don't really see a problem with the anime not acknowledging that No. 17 doesn't have a bomb inside of him anymore. Either way, he faked the self-destruct, so if he can survive whatever blast he faked in the manga, he can do it in the anime. In both cases, this plot point is trying to trick any audience member who knows that Artificial Humans have bombs but forgot about Kuririn's wish (a small group I'd imagine...but whatever). Of course, I prefer the presentation, the reaction of No. 18, and cooperation with Freeza from the manga's version.

----

Spoiler:

When Jiren gets blasted through the stage by Goku, he says "Attacks that exploit openings...are not true strength!!". I thought this was an odd thing to say, but I just shrugged it off. Today, I learned of a quote from world-famous (Japanese) Street Fighter player Daigo Umehara's book titled "The Will to Keep Winning":

True strength is achieved when you can read your opponent, but defeat them without exploiting their weaknesses.

Kotaku's reaction to the quote states:

Don't "read" your opponent or focus on their weakness. By "reading" an opponent (memorizing their habits, tells, and methods), you take your focus off of yourself and what you are doing. While knowing an opponent's habits can vastly improve one's odds in a match, to rely on this knowledge leads to very selective methods that will rarely work on multiple opponents. It also does not allow the player to grow.

In that context, Jiren's words make more sense. In his search for the true meaning of strength that Gicchin told him about, that's the conclusion he came to. In hindsight, we know it's not what Gicchin was referring to, but in terms of individual victory, it's a solid perspective.

Was Toyotaro inspired by Daigo's words? Does this concept come from elsewhere in eastern philosophy or literature? Either way, I found this pretty interesting.

[TKA]

It's really semantics at this point. Both Vegeta's technique and #17's technique ultimately fall the same category of "user unleashes attacks that may also harm the user".

You're thoroughly missing the point.

You can justify 17's technique. The justification, however, flies in the face of everything that sequence of events was alluding to.

It's the equivalent of saying "Darth Vader only beat Obi-Wan because he was a tired old man." Yes, it's true Obi-Wan is a tired old man, but the point of the scene was that Vader had surpassed him.

Same case here. You can headcanon that 17 learned a self-destruct move offscreen, but literally everything was alluding to the fact that he has a bomb in his chest.

I don't really see a problem with the anime not acknowledging that No. 17 doesn't have a bomb inside of him anymore.

On its own it doesn't really matter. It's just another in a long list of examples where the manga cared enough to pay attention to details the anime doesn't.

All of these little moments where the viewer goes "Wait..." add up until suspension of disbelief is broken.

[Marlowe89]

Either way, he faked the self-destruct

At no point, to my knowledge, is this ever suggested in the anime.

And see, that's the problem. Maybe he faked it, but that just means the anime's presentation was so needlessly vague that the viewer isn't left with anything to digest narratively. It's impossible to appreciate the impact of a strategy like this if you're only presuming it happened because you couldn't make heads or tails of the events leading up to it. There's no payoff.

[prince212]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

When Jiren gets blasted through the stage by Goku, he says "Attacks that exploit openings...are not true strength!!". I thought this was an odd thing to say, but I just shrugged it off. Today, I learned of a quote from world-famous (Japanese) Street Fighter player Daigo Umehara's book titled "The Will to Keep Winning":

True strength is achieved when you can read your opponent, but defeat them without exploiting their weaknesses.

Kotaku's reaction to the quote states:

Don't "read" your opponent or focus on their weakness. By "reading" an opponent (memorizing their habits, tells, and methods), you take your focus off of yourself and what you are doing. While knowing an opponent's habits can vastly improve one's odds in a match, to rely on this knowledge leads to very selective methods that will rarely work on multiple opponents. It also does not allow the player to grow.

In that context, Jiren's words make more sense. In his search for the true meaning of strength that Gicchin told him about, that's the conclusion he came to. In hindsight, we know it's not what Gicchin was referring to, but in terms of individual victory, it's a solid perspective.

Was Toyotaro inspired by Daigo's words? Does this concept come from elsewhere in eastern philosophy or literature? Either way, I found this pretty interesting

.

Thank you , yes it’s interesting, I kinda interpreted that line just how you explained it with the quotes you provided .
With a17 Surprise.....it’s one of the few points where the manga can make the difference for better , absolutely better . Anime relied in lucky points like that and Gokū pulling ultra instinct for the first time , and toyotaro provide us some explanations , always better than the “oops how I made it?”

[batistabus]

At no point, to my knowledge, is this ever suggested in the anime.

And see, that's the problem. Maybe he faked it, but that just means the anime's presentation was so needlessly vague that the viewer wasn't left with anything to digest narratively. It's impossible to appreciate the impact of a strategy like this if you're only presuming it happened because you couldn't make heads or tails of the events leading up to it. There's no payoff.

I just don't know what the alternative would be. He said he was going to explode, unleashed a blast, and then hid. The only other option is that he tried to explode, somehow survived, and then took advantage of the situation by hiding. But surviving a self-destruct because you're too strong is something so incomprehensibly stupid that not even Toei would go there...right Vegeta? On second though, maybe you do have a point...

On its own it doesn't really matter. It's just another in a long list of examples where the manga cared enough to pay attention to details the anime doesn't.

All of these little moments where the viewer goes "Wait..." add up until suspension of disbelief is broken.

I can understand that. Personally, I don't think it's worth the amount of discussion it's gotten in this thread.

[Lord Beerus]

#17 isn't like #19 or #16 where they're 100% artificial and can't use Ki at all.

I don't see how that matters since 18 isn't purely artificial either. Did that stop her from threatening to use her bomb in a last-ditch effort?

Nothing implies that 17 suddenly knew how to do what actually very few characters showed themselves capable of in the original story. Vegeta's self-destruction is called "sutemi" as opposed to 17's "jibaku", was specifically described as his technique during the tournament, and even has its own Daizenshuu entry in supplemental material. I couldn't possibly reiterate enough just how much of a massive stretch it is to even call it the same move.

At least with Cell, you had an ever-so-remote chance of him surviving his explosion because he could regenerate from his core. 17 doesn't have that privilege. Even if he did, you'd have to assume that he learned something like this off-screen since the Cell arc to justify its frankly ridiculous inclusion, but that's nothing more than post-hoc headcanon.

It's up to the individual as to whether he/she feels the scenario calls for a kamikaze attack like that. #18 didn't feel it was necessary while, #17 realised the desperation of the scenario and decided to gamble his life in last ditch effort to save Goku and Vegeta. Everyone has different mindset for how they may want to handle similar scenarios. #17 and #18 don't always think on the same wavelength.

Chiaotzu, Cell, and the Saibaman self-destructing fall into the same category of what #17 did, but they don't have any bombs inside them, do they? Who's to say #17 couldn't be able to do the same thing as them? I'm only saying that the similarities Vegeta and #17 have with their techniques is that their techniques that result in a massive shockwave/explosion being produced, which also has a "high risk, high reward" criteria surrounding it. It is possible to blow yourself up using Ki manipulation. All of this was stated in the Daizenshuu, as well. I mean, there was not mention in the Daizenshuu that Vegeta releasing a ton of energy would result in him dying, but that's what happened in the story. And now we know that character who pulls a stunt a like that can survive they're bodies become tough enough. So it's not as if anything we see in Super is contradicting anything.

Cell is a terrible example to use given the circumstances of his regeneration from his core are a huge plothole.

[prince212]

Again , this was not a fake , was a gamble