Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Saturnine » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:40 am

In addition to all that's already been said in this thread (which seals the deal as it is), there is a factual, but rarely explored angle of Super Buu being as strong as he was because he was a fusion entity, made up of two fused Buus.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40835&p=1441786&hil ... u#p1441786 Here's the thread I made about this issue, which got no replies - but it doesn't really surprise me, as it was pretty much preaching to the choir. Unfortunately the images are no longer online, they showed A+B type diagrams.

Anyway, Super Buu was made up of two separate entities, proven by Mr. Buu's survival past Kid Buu's demise. It wasn't just additive either, since that would not make Super Buu any stronger than before, really. The effect on Evil buu's appearance also looked much different than Super Buu's additive absorptions.

Finally - initial Fat Buu was already SSj3 level, so having Super Buu stronger than that but weaker than Kid Buu would make all three forms occupy a very similar tier of power, casting into doubt the necessity of their existence. Buu already had many, many redundant states close to power with each other, so every effort should be made to properly distinguish those that actually differ from each other in power significantly.

Mr. Buu < Evil buu < Fat Buu < Kid Buu < Super Buu < Piccolo Buu < Buff Buu < Buutenks < Buuhan

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:48 pm

Saturnine wrote: Buu already had many, many redundant states close to power with each other, so every effort should be made to properly distinguish those that actually differ from each other in power significantly.
I understand this sentiment, but there is something I think it’s being overlooked in this whole semantics debate. When you are in the process of creating a villain, there is a concern of intensifying the threat as you reach the end portion of the story. For an audience that wants things to escalate to an unprecedented level, Boo’s final form being actually weaker than the others looks underwhelming. Not to mention the main hero not being the strongest hero.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Ripper 30 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:57 pm

Desassina wrote:It's only an anime thing that the guides documented and was continued upon in DBS. Historically, people drew the opposite conclusion, and that was naturally by just reading. However, I must say that TOEI studios did their best to make Goku vs Pure Boo the strongest match until then, by crafting some good filler that could have been missed in the grand scheme of things. Let me give you an example: why didn't Goku use Super Saiyan 3 in Evil Boo's stomach? Vegeta already knew it, and that was when both of them got damaged trying to fight Gohan Boo (not a manga scene), lost their Super Saiyan forms before fusion and fought some more in his stomach (anime-only), which means that the energy wasn't there to pull off the highest transformation, and led to Dende healing them upon arriving at Kaioshin's planet (filler scene). Majin Boo arc's filler was quite good in adhering to the story layout, so as long as it was headed TOEI studios' direction, which then produced the movies where the strongest roles were reversed. There was a goal, regardless of what the author intended, and they adapted things their own way, because it was their adaptation, but not the original story. What has then been continued is the global awareness of the franchise, which cannot be separated into manga and anime only continuities, but addressed lightly by the medium that adheres to the one of the original story. Think about it this way: would Bryan Singer of FOX Movies' X-Men fame ignore anything introduced by the third and fourth movies that weren't directed by him? No, but he found a way to address them by directing Days of Future Past, and continuing it as his own franchise once more.
People read mistranslations and nothing else. In viz they literally took out "Lower his power through absorptions" and instead add "the souls he ate tamed him" which is nonsense. Then dub makes it worse by implying Goku was holding back fighting Pure Boo for Vegeta but otherwise he could have killed him when he was fresh. Goku while fighting Evil Boo has no reason to take risks or show off Saiyan pride. His first priority is to save kids first and foremost but on Kaioshin planet, he admits that he should stop holding back and starts telling all the truth. Again, if his reasons to fight Pure Boo was ki decrease then he should have said it considering how how characters do that in DBZ and also how that is supposed to be his source of relief. But, what he told Kaioshins is that while Pure Boo destroys planets he will think of a plan but was forced to fight him instantly. Again assuming that his ki went down is headcanon since there are not one but many instances where they could have mentioned it but they didn't. Anime is mirroring the Manga it's not exactly changing the main story, it's just misinformation among Fandom that Evil Boo is stronger even though the same Goku who thought Gohan can handle Piccolo-Boo alone, thought Vegeta's plan was to bring both Gohan and Gotenks also to join them in fight. How's that not enough? You think Goku and Vegeta can't make error in judgements? You think they are infallible characters?
Darkprince410 wrote: And it's clear in those situations why Goku didn't want to use Super Saiyan 3. He was dead at the time and he knew that using it would burn through his time quickly, and in turn he wanted to save it for emergencies. He used it against Fat Buu because he had no alternative as far as stalling him, but even then he didn't want to actually kill him. As for the events on Kaioushin's planet, Goku still at least went Super Saiyan 3 against Buu, whereas he, by his own admission, was too scared to even try and fight Evil Buu. He knows Vegeta doesn't want to fuse with him, but remained adamant till the very end that it was the only way they had to defeat Evil Buu, yet, while admitting that the Potaras would make things easier, he still felt he could defeat Pure Buu on his own. Again, Goku's comment can readily imply that, because their entire reasoning for removing individuals inside Buu was to weaken him, and Goku comments, inside, that they're "almost there". Then, once they leave and Pure Buu fully forms, he excitedly comments "We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something" That line is a direct correlation to what he said inside about being almost there with Evil Buu, but now they had succeeded, and thus indicating a power drop.

It doesn't change that Goku still believed he could have done it on his own, and yes, Goku did say he thought he could defeat him at full power, as the collecting ki was, by his own admission, to get him back to "full power".
Goku: “Just a little more…….!! Just a little bit more. Tough it out for me, Vegeta….!!”
Vegeta: “St…still not yet?...Hurry up…..!! I’ll be ki…..killed………..!!”
Goku: “Sh-shit…! It-it’s already over 1 minute, but…N-not yet! I still can’t wipe out Boo with this much…! [ ] …Da...Damn it……..!! …I haven’t gathered all the ki!! What’s going on? He…he’ll be killed…..!!!”
Goku: “I…I know..! I know, but…It’s strange… I gathered my ki close to full power, but…The ki which I al…already gathered has begun falling off…!”
He still believed he could take out Buu under his own power, but was too scared to even try to use it against Evil Buu, claiming that Buu would kill them.

Evil Buu still could be reasoned with more than Pure Buu could. Yes, he had a short temper and was hard to reason with, but he could still be reasoned with to an extent. Piccolo was able to at least make him consider waiting for an hour (even if he didn't succeed in getting him to wait the full time) as well as convince him to "kill all humans" first in hopes of stalling him out. All the other Buus could be reasoned with to some degree, while Pure Buu wasn't. This is established immediately, and fits Vegeta's fears of what a revived Buu might do perfectly well.

No, genki is not ki. Toriyama established this to be the case, so no matter what you may believe, genki is not just ki, but a single element of it. There are are more than three elements to ki as well, as he indicated that the three he mentioned were just examples and not the full list of it. Gohan gave the full extent of the genki he could donate, which was not enough to defeat Pure Buu, that's all that can be determined by the statements made and the nature of what the Genki Dama is. As for why they didn't bother just bringing Gohan up, again, that's been established. Vegeta wanted the people of the Earth to take care of their own problems. Any other reason is pure speculation with no evidence backing it up.
When Goku told he will be done in by Pure Boo, mind you he still lied about not being a match for Fat Boo and we as an audience not knowing if he can beat Fat Boo or not. Again, you can't assume things When we have seen how Toriyama loves using the gag of final most strongest form looking weaker and atleast one character remarking about it, same thing here. In Manga, right next to Goku and Vegeta's Happy face we see Kaioshin's terrified face to the point he started sweating outta nowhere :D :D :D, and that same dude was celebrating after seeing Evil Boo reverting to normal then goes on to tell his backstory and the final conversation is :
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption …has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

Why would Toriyama :
1)first mention the ki going up only for it to go down in next page
2)keep on showing the transition in Kibitoshin's reaction from happy to scared
3) making Goku and Vegeta's reaction positive but Kibitoshin's reactions exact opposite
4)mention the lowering power thing right at the end
5) downgrade the final DBZ villain for no reason when either way none of the main characters end up even putting a proper fight and Genki Dama was the last resort
Again, the ki which was increasing was Kid Boo's restricted ki which was untapped for years due to absorptions because you can't access ki from nothing. It's not like Vegeta removes Dai Kaioshin only but he removes Fat Boo away who was the result of two absorptions so the reason for instant Ki release is Kaioshins unlike Saiyans have opposite effect. They lower the power of Boo unlike Saiyans who increase it. Tell me, why does not Boo's Power skyrocketed when Goku and Vegeta remove Piccolo and kids from inside? All we see is him going into next weaker state in a POP and ki getting smaller instantly but here it kept rising, why? Because of what Kaioshin told about the Gods in him lowering his power.

Again, you are twisting facts and entering dub territory. Goku explicitly said that if he wants to wipe Boo he needs to charge ki for a minute and never said anything about full power. Goku was never holding back to begin with and that's a fact. The whole point of Goku vs Pure Boo is Goku giving his all and Vegeta praising Goku and thinking he's holding back but he wasn't, Goku found out that Pure Boo is lollygagging the entire time and even says that "no matter what i do he keeps coming back" so that's why Goku wanted to fire a big scale attack to wipe him out. It has nothing to do with battling him one-on-one in Full Power but charging as much ki and hitting with a large attack but Goku was in heat of battle at that moment and unlike with Pure Boo he hardly had an edge over Pure Boo here, atleast with Fat Boo he was using him as punching bag at one point, but here he was never shown smiling even once, all we saw was regret for not choosing potara when time was right. We all know that Goku's action would have been fail even if he attacked him by a full ki charge Kamehameha because Pure Boo needed a Universal Genki-Dama to get obliterated. If you can come back right after tanking two ssj3 Kamehamehas already and then the other person says that Pure Boo is toying then it means this is hardly an equal fight. You are telling me Goku while fighting Pure Boo was drained? No he wasn't, he was all fresh and ready to use his ssj3 without anything to worry like protecting kids or anything, Goku wanting to test his desire is literally a trait. If his sons weren't in Evil Boo then i hardly doubt he would not like to taste his powers alone.

No, that's not enough. Evil Boo cannot. Be. Reasoned. With. Too. The only reason he waits because he wanted to smash the two kids Goku promised him otherwise he had no problem in killing people when hungry like killing Satan's daughter, ofcourse there was a tiny bit of heart in him due to Kaioshin weakness but Vegeta was worried because there was no one to finish him. You are adding way too many things here, even if Gohan was above Pure Boo they should have made a mention here, again assuming that Goku talking about training so that no one loses to Boo one-on-one forgot about his sons is a massive headcanon.

There's nothing such as "donating Genki" :D :D :D. You can't donate health, the attack is Genki-Dama but what Goku collects is Ki. You are trying to make things over complicated when we See Kibitoshin getting exhausted after giving his ki to the point he can't Teleport, similar to Gohan and Kuririn being exhausted in Namek arc after Goku fired Genki Dama and they can't even fly properly. It's same here. Vegeta never brought Gohan because he wasn't strong enough to beat Boo. It's so simple,
Goku concerning Pure Boo : "i know you are gonna get Gohan and Gotenks so that they can fight too"

Goku concerning Piccolo-Boo : "Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat-you even on his own…"


These 2 statements tell the story, if he's not sure that Gohan alone can't deal with Boo then that makes my point clear what the narrative is going for.
Saturnine wrote:In addition to all that's already been said in this thread (which seals the deal as it is), there is a factual, but rarely explored angle of Super Buu being as strong as he was because he was a fusion entity, made up of two fused Buus.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40835&p=1441786&hil ... u#p1441786 Here's the thread I made about this issue, which got no replies - but it doesn't really surprise me, as it was pretty much preaching to the choir. Unfortunately the images are no longer online, they showed A+B type diagrams.

Anyway, Super Buu was made up of two separate entities, proven by Mr. Buu's survival past Kid Buu's demise. It wasn't just additive either, since that would not make Super Buu any stronger than before, really. The effect on Evil buu's appearance also looked much different than Super Buu's additive absorptions.

Finally - initial Fat Buu was already SSj3 level, so having Super Buu stronger than that but weaker than Kid Buu would make all three forms occupy a very similar tier of power, casting into doubt the necessity of their existence. Buu already had many, many redundant states close to power with each other, so every effort should be made to properly distinguish those that actually differ from each other in power significantly.

Mr. Buu < Evil buu < Fat Buu < Kid Buu < Super Buu < Piccolo Buu < Buff Buu < Buutenks < Buuhan


I have seen your thread and you assuming that South Kaioshin powered up Boo out of nowhere is a big headcanon. No implications as such have been made in manga but opposite implications are there. Either South Kaioshin weakened him or had no effect on his power but he definitely never powered up him. Why? Because it's only After Vegeta detached Fat Boo who was influence of both Gods that he ki starts to go up, that's the ki of Pure Boo which was blocked by absorbing Kaioshins because the composition of Buff Boo and Pure Boo from inside is same and if South Kaioshin really made him strong then he should remain in Buff form but the fact he doesn't and ki keeps increasing and no comment is made on it going down in manga means it's Pure Boo's ki.

The appeal of Pure Boo's design is that he's smallest but he's strongest too atleast among unfused characters.
Hugo Boss wrote:
Saturnine wrote: Buu already had many, many redundant states close to power with each other, so every effort should be made to properly distinguish those that actually differ from each other in power significantly.

I understand this sentiment, but there is something I think it’s being overlooked in this whole semantics debate. When you are in the process of creating a villain, there is a concern of intensifying the threat as you reach the end portion of the story. For an audience that wants things to escalate to an unprecedented level, Boo’s final form being actually weaker than the others looks underwhelming. Not to mention the main hero not being the strongest hero.

I don't know about Goku being strongest but what i can say is, Pure Boo is definitely the strongest in manga if you read my points and pay attention to how the world and characters react to him, what the point of the last line in Kaioshin's exposition of Pure Boo backstory was and why Goku wanted both Gotenks and Gohan to join him as if implying that Gohan isn't enough. It's such a simple scaling which has been debated for 20 years for no reason.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Miracles » Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:27 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
Miracles wrote: What you just stated does not disprove the fact that Goku was said to be able to fight kid buu on a level playing field. Which he did.

That means stronger than Gohan as well, it's not like Gohan was forgotten by Vegeta since he saw everything from afterlife.
his doesn't disprove Goku's statements and action about not wanting to fight Evil Buu but wanting and showed that he could fight Kid Buu. Trying to discredit Goku isn't going to work for you when he was proven not guilty here.

Goku wanted to fuse with Gohan or Vegeta when his ssj3 is enough to beat fat boo. Taking one statement on face value and ignoring several evidences which don't support that statement doesn't mean anything.
Miracles wrote: Goku outright said Super Buu would kill him and Vegeta. He wanted to fuse against Super Buu but wanted to fight Kid Buu one on one and DID just that. Super Buu > Kid Buu...
Goku outright says that if Vegeta wasn't able to match Fat boo then he can't as well since according to him, they are on par.
Yea, Goku SSJ3 = Vegeta SSJ2.
Your entire tactic now is trying to discredit Goku by mixing statements out of there proper subject that have no connection with each other.
In this case, Goku's words were PROVEN by action that Super Boo was stronger than Kid Buu. Try all you want, the facts won't change.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Ripper 30 » Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:35 am

Miracles wrote:
Ripper 30 wrote:
Miracles wrote: What you just stated does not disprove the fact that Goku was said to be able to fight kid buu on a level playing field. Which he did.

That means stronger than Gohan as well, it's not like Gohan was forgotten by Vegeta since he saw everything from afterlife.
his doesn't disprove Goku's statements and action about not wanting to fight Evil Buu but wanting and showed that he could fight Kid Buu. Trying to discredit Goku isn't going to work for you when he was proven not guilty here.

Goku wanted to fuse with Gohan or Vegeta when his ssj3 is enough to beat fat boo. Taking one statement on face value and ignoring several evidences which don't support that statement doesn't mean anything.
Miracles wrote: Goku outright said Super Buu would kill him and Vegeta. He wanted to fuse against Super Buu but wanted to fight Kid Buu one on one and DID just that. Super Buu > Kid Buu...
Goku outright says that if Vegeta wasn't able to match Fat boo then he can't as well since according to him, they are on par.
Yea, Goku SSJ3 = Vegeta SSJ2.
Your entire tactic now is trying to discredit Goku by mixing statements out of there proper subject that have no connection with each other.
In this case, Goku's words were PROVEN by action that Super Boo was stronger than Kid Buu. Try all you want, the facts won't change.
You are hung up on one statement, yet ignore many evidence not supporting that claim you making from that statement. If Goku was so afraid of Evil Boo (with gag faces) then why didn't he ask Gohan to one shot Pure Boo? Why was his statement :
I know you are gonna get Gohan and Gotenks to fight with us

Nothing about that even implied that Gohan is enough or Evil Boo is stronger. He doesn't even say something like "Ask Gohan to finish Boo" but just adding both of them to help them too. Not only that but entire narrative is implying opposite of what you say, Old Kaioshin is the one who powered up Gohan and gave Potara, if Gohan was enough he won't even fret along with Kaioshin.

If you're taking only one statement of Goku into account and ignoring other then you are just making up headcanons. You can't even give a proper explanation of his Ki shooting up after Vegeta Removed Boo even though it's supposed to go down instantly whenever someone is detached. With Piccolo and kids it goes down in no time but why would it increase with Fat Boo? Because he was holding back the power of Pure Boo all this time and if you think it's South Kaioshin ki then you're wrong because no one is left there connected to him to access Ki and he should only stay in Buffed Form if it was actually Kaioshin ki. You are just not willing to see things from other side and get over one statement Goku made even though at that time he never even told the truth about being stronger than Fat Boo.
I don't understand what so hard to grasp about foreshadowing - Vegeta, in his typically arrogant fashion underestimates Boo and Goku doesn't correct him. The next page we then see the Kibitoshin in absolute fear, stating that while this Boo doesn't look like much, he's the worst one of the bunch and ends with the statement "lower his power through absorptions" and that's exactly what Vegeta undid by taking 2 Kaioshin influence out. We finally have Goku (now in the realm of the Kaioshin) confident enough to fight Boo - he's given everyone else a shot, now it's his turn, now he isn't constraint with keeping kids safe and he can go one-on-one with the most strongest villain. He starts telling the truth and says that he won't hold back at this point.

Even anime judged this scene this way and mirrored the Manga's intention perfectly.

For me as a reader, that strongly implies that this Boo is the most powerful of all his forms (or atleast second strongest behind Gohan-Boo). The only people who are disagreeing are those who don't want to admit their wrong, or think Toriyama cannot dare to make stronger villain than Evil Boo and he can't make a stronger villain than Gohan. You disagree because you are only judging based on vague interpretations of statements and have this mindset of Evil Boo being strongest unfused Boo when the whole narrative says otherwise. We also know that Toriyama loves to go against expectations of viewers and his smallest looking characters are strongest like Freeza getting smaller in final form, Cell getting smaller in final form comparatively, Omni King in DBS, Vegeta being smaller than Nappa. The whole appeal of Kid Boo is that only, Goku and Vegeta misjudged him and paid the price.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:58 am

When Goku told he will be done in by Pure Boo, mind you he still lied about not being a match for Fat Boo and we as an audience not knowing if he can beat Fat Boo or not. Again, you can't assume things When we have seen how Toriyama loves using the gag of final most strongest form looking weaker and atleast one character remarking about it, same thing here. In Manga, right next to Goku and Vegeta's Happy face we see Kaioshin's terrified face to the point he started sweating outta nowhere :D :D :D, and that same dude was celebrating after seeing Evil Boo reverting to normal then goes on to tell his backstory and the final conversation is :

Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption …has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

Why would Toriyama :
1)first mention the ki going up only for it to go down in next page
2)keep on showing the transition in Kibitoshin's reaction from happy to scared
3) making Goku and Vegeta's reaction positive but Kibitoshin's reactions exact opposite
4)mention the lowering power thing right at the end
5) downgrade the final DBZ villain for no reason when either way none of the main characters end up even putting a proper fight and Genki Dama was the last resort
Again, the ki which was increasing was Kid Boo's restricted ki which was untapped for years due to absorptions because you can't access ki from nothing. It's not like Vegeta removes Dai Kaioshin only but he removes Fat Boo away who was the result of two absorptions so the reason for instant Ki release is Kaioshins unlike Saiyans have opposite effect. They lower the power of Boo unlike Saiyans who increase it. Tell me, why does not Boo's Power skyrocketed when Goku and Vegeta remove Piccolo and kids from inside? All we see is him going into next weaker state in a POP and ki getting smaller instantly but here it kept rising, why? Because of what Kaioshin told about the Gods in him lowering his power.

Again, you are twisting facts and entering dub territory. Goku explicitly said that if he wants to wipe Boo he needs to charge ki for a minute and never said anything about full power. Goku was never holding back to begin with and that's a fact. The whole point of Goku vs Pure Boo is Goku giving his all and Vegeta praising Goku and thinking he's holding back but he wasn't, Goku found out that Pure Boo is lollygagging the entire time and even says that "no matter what i do he keeps coming back" so that's why Goku wanted to fire a big scale attack to wipe him out. It has nothing to do with battling him one-on-one in Full Power but charging as much ki and hitting with a large attack but Goku was in heat of battle at that moment and unlike with Pure Boo he hardly had an edge over Pure Boo here, atleast with Fat Boo he was using him as punching bag at one point, but here he was never shown smiling even once, all we saw was regret for not choosing potara when time was right. We all know that Goku's action would have been fail even if he attacked him by a full ki charge Kamehameha because Pure Boo needed a Universal Genki-Dama to get obliterated. If you can come back right after tanking two ssj3 Kamehamehas already and then the other person says that Pure Boo is toying then it means this is hardly an equal fight. You are telling me Goku while fighting Pure Boo was drained? No he wasn't, he was all fresh and ready to use his ssj3 without anything to worry like protecting kids or anything, Goku wanting to test his desire is literally a trait. If his sons weren't in Evil Boo then i hardly doubt he would not like to taste his powers alone.

No, that's not enough. Evil Boo cannot. Be. Reasoned. With. Too. The only reason he waits because he wanted to smash the two kids Goku promised him otherwise he had no problem in killing people when hungry like killing Satan's daughter, ofcourse there was a tiny bit of heart in him due to Kaioshin weakness but Vegeta was worried because there was no one to finish him. You are adding way too many things here, even if Gohan was above Pure Boo they should have made a mention here, again assuming that Goku talking about training so that no one loses to Boo one-on-one forgot about his sons is a massive headcanon.

There's nothing such as "donating Genki" :D :D :D. You can't donate health, the attack is Genki-Dama but what Goku collects is Ki. You are trying to make things over complicated when we See Kibitoshin getting exhausted after giving his ki to the point he can't Teleport, similar to Gohan and Kuririn being exhausted in Namek arc after Goku fired Genki Dama and they can't even fly properly. It's same here. Vegeta never brought Gohan because he wasn't strong enough to beat Boo. It's so simple

Goku concerning Pure Boo : "i know you are gonna get Gohan and Gotenks so that they can fight too"

Goku concerning Piccolo-Boo : "Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat-you even on his own…"


These 2 statements tell the story, if he's not sure that Gohan alone can't deal with Boo then that makes my point clear what the narrative is going for.


You can't argue the whole "he lied here, so he could have lied there too" because with Fat Buu, it was later revealed that he was lying about it. With Evil Buu, what is said is never countered, contradicted, or otherwise established as a lie. As for the Kaioushin absorptions, again, only one was ever indicated by Kibitoshin to have affected Buu differently than normal, and that was the Dai Kaioushin. Since South Kaioushin was given no special mention as having affected Buu differently than usual, then we can only logically conclude that absorbing him strengthened Buu. Now, you keep saying that the influence of the two Kaioushin disappeared instantly when they were removed, but again, that can't be, because we see Buu transform backwards based on the absorptions being removed. If their influences disappeared instantly and there was none of their ki within him still after he was detached, then there's no logical reason for Buu to have reverted to South Kaioushin Buu before reverting to Pure Buu. He should have just reverted directly to Pure Buu and that be that. Reverting to South Kaioushin Buu first tells us that there was some of his influence in there still, and thus we can logically assume that the power increase mentioned was related to that. Buu got stronger because he lost the limiting effects of the Dai Kaioushin, but then lost power again when he lost the boost that South Kaioushin gave him. It's the only logical explanation for what happened. His body had to burn through that remaining ki that was still within him, so it burned through the remnants of Dai Kaioushin's ki first, causing the change to South Kaioushin Buu, then the remnants of South Kaioushin's ki, causing the change to Pure Buu. We've seen before that the transformation when something happens to his absorptions isn't always instant, for in the case of Gotenks, while the fusion itself dissolves instantly (we've seen that), it took several seconds for it to take effect with Buu (he stopped his charge at Goku, fidgeted around long enough for Gohan to find the earring and ask his dad what he's supposed to do with it and which ear to put it on, and then to revert to Piccolo Buu). If it can take several seconds for that, why does it have to be absolutely instant for the removal of the Kaioushin?

Goku himself explicitly says, in the original manga, that his powering up was to get him back to full power, not charging up some attack beyond his existing strength like the Makankosappo or Final Flash. Yes, he did go at Buu at full power from the get go, but he tried fighting him melee wise rather than just pouring all his ki into an attack to take him out in a single blow, and that's what he was wanting to try his second time through when he powered back up. Buu was not lollygagging or playing around the entire time, just from the moment he took Goku's one Kamehameha and decided to dance around rather than regenerate completely. There's no indication or suggestion he was playing around at any point before then. The Genki Dama's power was overkill once it collected the genki of everyone on Earth, and we have no evidence saying that a full power Kamehameha wouldn't have produced enough to have destroyed Buu, since he never did so beforehand. By his own admission, neither of the Kamehameha he fired against Buu beforehand were at full power
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”


And yet you're describing exactly what I said. He could be reasoned with to an extent. He was promised a battle against a strong opponent, and thus Piccolo was able to get him to wait a bit by convincing him to kill all the humans left on Earth and then, thanks to Videl, wait at least half an hour. Regardless of what you say, this is a case of him being able to be reasoned with. Just barely reasoned with and quick to lose his temper and attack, but still some reason to him. With Pure Buu, there was literally none. The promise of a fight didn't remotely dissuade him from going and blowing up the Earth immediately. At no point did I say that my interpretation of what Goku said was ignoring Gohan and Gotenks. On the contrary, my interpretation includes them as being part of what he was constituting as not a "worse comes to worst" situation. He specifically tells Vegeta that, in a worst case scenario, the two of them can just fight Buu again, meaning that he acknowledges there being better case scenarios

You keep saying that, but it doesn't make it true. Genki is what's collected, simple as that. If it was solely just ki, then there'd be no reason for Goku to specifically ask for genki from the people of the Earth, or for genki to be mentioned in relation to the attack at all. Because it is, and because Toriyama has established that genki is a specific element of ki, then the only thing we can conclude is that the Genki Dama collects genki. Genki is the energy or pep someone has when in good health (not literally "health" itself), which is why, when donated, Kibitoshin didn't have the energy available to teleport and the random human felt completely winded. Vegeta never brought up Gohan or Gotenks because his plan was for the people of the Earth to handle their own problems, not because they weren't strong enough. That's the only reason he gave, and any assumption of him having other reasons for it is head canon.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Saturnine » Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:43 am

Assuming that the South Kaioshin powered up Kid Buu is only natural, because Buff Buu was demonstrated to be even stronger than Super Buu. Then again, Kid Buu was then powered down again so he can be within Goku's reach. This much has been established pretty well.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Miracles » Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:08 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
Miracles wrote:
Ripper 30 wrote:
That means stronger than Gohan as well, it's not like Gohan was forgotten by Vegeta since he saw everything from afterlife.

Goku wanted to fuse with Gohan or Vegeta when his ssj3 is enough to beat fat boo. Taking one statement on face value and ignoring several evidences which don't support that statement doesn't mean anything.

Goku outright says that if Vegeta wasn't able to match Fat boo then he can't as well since according to him, they are on par.
Yea, Goku SSJ3 = Vegeta SSJ2.
Your entire tactic now is trying to discredit Goku by mixing statements out of there proper subject that have no connection with each other.
In this case, Goku's words were PROVEN by action that Super Boo was stronger than Kid Buu. Try all you want, the facts won't change.
You are hung up on one statement, yet ignore many evidence not supporting that claim you making from that statement. If Goku was so afraid of Evil Boo (with gag faces) then why didn't he ask Gohan to one shot Pure Boo? Why was his statement :
Gohan was dead; killed by Kid Buu. Also there are no other statements contradicting Goku's remark and action about Evil Buu being stronger than Kid Buu. You are trying to pretend there are cause you need a way to twist the story to your fancy.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Ripper 30 » Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:06 am

Darkprince410 wrote: You can't argue the whole "he lied here, so he could have lied there too" because with Fat Buu, it was later revealed that he was lying about it. With Evil Buu, what is said is never countered, contradicted, or otherwise established as a lie. As for the Kaioushin absorptions, again, only one was ever indicated by Kibitoshin to have affected Buu differently than normal, and that was the Dai Kaioushin. Since South Kaioushin was given no special mention as having affected Buu differently than usual, then we can only logically conclude that absorbing him strengthened Buu. Now, you keep saying that the influence of the two Kaioushin disappeared instantly when they were removed, but again, that can't be, because we see Buu transform backwards based on the absorptions being removed. If their influences disappeared instantly and there was none of their ki within him still after he was detached, then there's no logical reason for Buu to have reverted to South Kaioushin Buu before reverting to Pure Buu. He should have just reverted directly to Pure Buu and that be that. Reverting to South Kaioushin Buu first tells us that there was some of his influence in there still, and thus we can logically assume that the power increase mentioned was related to that. Buu got stronger because he lost the limiting effects of the Dai Kaioushin, but then lost power again when he lost the boost that South Kaioushin gave him. It's the only logical explanation for what happened. His body had to burn through that remaining ki that was still within him, so it burned through the remnants of Dai Kaioushin's ki first, causing the change to South Kaioushin Buu, then the remnants of South Kaioushin's ki, causing the change to Pure Buu. We've seen before that the transformation when something happens to his absorptions isn't always instant, for in the case of Gotenks, while the fusion itself dissolves instantly (we've seen that), it took several seconds for it to take effect with Buu (he stopped his charge at Goku, fidgeted around long enough for Gohan to find the earring and ask his dad what he's supposed to do with it and which ear to put it on, and then to revert to Piccolo Buu). If it can take several seconds for that, why does it have to be absolutely instant for the removal of the Kaioushin?

Goku himself explicitly says, in the original manga, that his powering up was to get him back to full power, not charging up some attack beyond his existing strength like the Makankosappo or Final Flash. Yes, he did go at Buu at full power from the get go, but he tried fighting him melee wise rather than just pouring all his ki into an attack to take him out in a single blow, and that's what he was wanting to try his second time through when he powered back up. Buu was not lollygagging or playing around the entire time, just from the moment he took Goku's one Kamehameha and decided to dance around rather than regenerate completely. There's no indication or suggestion he was playing around at any point before then. The Genki Dama's power was overkill once it collected the genki of everyone on Earth, and we have no evidence saying that a full power Kamehameha wouldn't have produced enough to have destroyed Buu, since he never did so beforehand. By his own admission, neither of the Kamehameha he fired against Buu beforehand were at full power
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
And yet you're describing exactly what I said. He could be reasoned with to an extent. He was promised a battle against a strong opponent, and thus Piccolo was able to get him to wait a bit by convincing him to kill all the humans left on Earth and then, thanks to Videl, wait at least half an hour. Regardless of what you say, this is a case of him being able to be reasoned with. Just barely reasoned with and quick to lose his temper and attack, but still some reason to him. With Pure Buu, there was literally none. The promise of a fight didn't remotely dissuade him from going and blowing up the Earth immediately. At no point did I say that my interpretation of what Goku said was ignoring Gohan and Gotenks. On the contrary, my interpretation includes them as being part of what he was constituting as not a "worse comes to worst" situation. He specifically tells Vegeta that, in a worst case scenario, the two of them can just fight Buu again, meaning that he acknowledges there being better case scenarios

You keep saying that, but it doesn't make it true. Genki is what's collected, simple as that. If it was solely just ki, then there'd be no reason for Goku to specifically ask for genki from the people of the Earth, or for genki to be mentioned in relation to the attack at all. Because it is, and because Toriyama has established that genki is a specific element of ki, then the only thing we can conclude is that the Genki Dama collects genki. Genki is the energy or pep someone has when in good health (not literally "health" itself), which is why, when donated, Kibitoshin didn't have the energy available to teleport and the random human felt completely winded. Vegeta never brought up Gohan or Gotenks because his plan was for the people of the Earth to handle their own problems, not because they weren't strong enough. That's the only reason he gave, and any assumption of him having other reasons for it is head canon.
See, good boo represents Kaioshin influence pure boo gains after absorbing both kaioshins, if South kaioshin made pure boo stronger then why would removing Good boo from Evil Boo result in power increase?
Boo shouldn't have gotten a boost in power if his power source is removed. It makes no sense that after removing the power of Kaioshins, evil boo would draw on the power of a Kaioshin (reverting back to "Buff boo"). So what power he was drawing on turning into buff boo was himself. He has no more Kaioshin influence, only his unrestricted power to feed off. According to your logic, it would be like Cell after puking Android 18 growing Stronger in his fight vs Cell. Thats why he never stayed in "Buff form", if he's just responding to loss of Dai Kaioshin influence then he should have stayed in Buff form but no, he kept on changing. The argument of both Kaioshins not weakening Boo doesn't stand when examining Boo's increase in power just after removing Good Boo. It might work if only Dai Kaioshin influence was removed but no it was the influence of both Kaioshins including South Kaioshin and Boo didn't have power to feed off of. After becoming Buff Boo he never stops transforming and his power never stopped growing and he reverts into original form. Anyone looking at it objectively can conclude that without Kaioshins suppressing him, boo didn't have their power to feed off of leaving him with his own unrestricted power to feed off. South Kaioshin is also never said to increase Pure Boo's Power, he's only called the strongest Kaioshin demonstrating how their best also was no match for Boo.

So if Pure Evil Boo is stronger than Pure Boo and early Fat Boo's Power that fought Goku ssj3 equals that of Good Boo's and Evil Boo's combined, then That Fat Boo which fought Goku in ssj3 is also Stronger than Pure Boo.

If Fat Boo is the result of Kaioshin influence restraining Pure Boo, then how could Pure Evil Boo be Boo's equal, let alone stronger?

Kaioshin ki cannot help Boo that's why Dabra explicitly states that they can't take ki of Kibito and Kaioshin. But rest are option. Why won't they, after all they were planning to take Ki from weaker human fodders in Tenkaichi Budokai either way. Why does Fusion stats activated in Boo's body but the moment they lower the barrier, the Potara stops functioning? It's same thing about Kaioshin powers not working with Majin powers. You are literally stretching this, there's absolutely no mention of South Kaioshin powering up Boo in manga just the implication that "even our strongest was absorbed" that's it, Dai Kaioshin made him controllable but it's influence of Kaioshins which weakened Boo. Just because Dai Kaioshin had Pure heart that doesn't mean it can weaken him. Otherwise Gohan and Goten should have weakened him too. It's the Gods he absorbed which weakened him and you can't access ki from someone who's not their otherwise why not access Gohan's or Gotenks ki? No, i already told you about how in Manga its one Panel Boo realizing that Gotenks time is up and next panel being Piccolo-Boo, Gohan found the earring before he stopped in the middle of punching Goku. It was him being Gotenks-Boo then Piccolo-Boo in subsequent panels. Want more proof? When Goku remove Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Piccolo he reverts back INSTANTLY and never did their Ki go up, according to your headcanon after removing Gohan he ki should go up and then go down then same should happen with remaining three absorbed ones, it hardly makes sense. With Fat Boo removed there is no power to feed off of other than his own, that's why he doesn't stop at Buff Form and was basically transforming in reverse that's why Kibitoshin notices the process and was scared. You're just making your own assumptions that the power south Kaioshin increased was more than the energy Dai Kaioshin made him lose like, what?
Wow, you're now changing the dialogues too. All Goku told that he needs to charge Ki for a minute, and he never said "at my full power i can kill him" because he was holding back to begin with. Also, again adding your own lines about him only doing hand to hand :crazy:
Goku:"here I am trying to obliterate him but I need to gather enough ki for a minute"


is what he Said, which shows he's not holding back by any stretch. At this point you just can't admit even obvious facts that Pure Boo was toying with Goku and read the Manga again, he actually tanked 2 Kamehamehas not one, Goku started with Kamehameha too. Again assuming what you want to as fact.
Goku: "He keeps coming back no matter what i do"
That's enough implication of Goku trying his all into the fight to obliterate Boo.

Funny thing is, you are just making random assumptions with his "Worst Case scenario" statement.

Again that's illogical, you either way aren't even going with what Toriyama meant and in Boo arc Genki Dama Vegeta clearly said he will ask them to give their Ki right upto their very limits. Even in Manga its Ki, plants can't have health Energy but they can have Ki. You are at this point either changing Context from Manga or downright refuse to go with what Manga is saying since it uses Ki in this case. Genki can be interchangeable since Yuuki and Shouki are mental state and have nothing to do with energy. There isn't any translation in English/American Lexicon and it translates as a noun and adjective. As a noun : "Energy" and as an adjective it's "Energetic", That's why Goku collected enough Power to badly damage Vegeta from just nature. Why are you using Toriyama's words when you don't even accept the words written by Toriyama in manga like how both Goku and Vegeta start using the word Ki. Believe it or not it's Ki, not some health Energy thing which you made up. Otherwise Goku and Vegeta won't use word Ki.

I am not even talking about Vegeta here,
Goku concerning Pure Boo : "i know you are gonna get Gohan and Gotenks so that they can fight too"

Goku concerning Piccolo-Boo : "Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat-you even on his own…"



These 2 statements tell the story, if he's not sure that Gohan alone can't deal with Boo then that makes my point clear what the narrative is going for. Goku is interpreting Both Boos not me.
Saturnine wrote:Assuming that the South Kaioshin powered up Kid Buu is only natural, because Buff Buu was demonstrated to be even stronger than Super Buu. Then again, Kid Buu was then powered down again so he can be within Goku's reach. This much has been established pretty well.
No it isn't. Goku regretted Refusing Potara and admitted that Vegetto could have done it if he wasn't too cocky which means he underestimated Boo.

Miracles wrote:Gohan was dead; killed by Kid Buu. Also there are no other statements contradicting Goku's remark and action about Evil Buu being stronger than Kid Buu. You are trying to pretend there are cause you need a way to twist the story to your fancy.
Gohan was revived with second Wish so there we go, i am not the one giving headcanons as to why Elder Kaioshin or anyone didn't ask Gohan to one shot Boo after second wish even though Elder Kaioshin had his hand full after he saw how close to losing they were even after Genki-Dama.
Goku concerning Pure Boo : "i know you are gonna get Gohan and Gotenks so that they can fight too"

Goku concerning Piccolo-Boo : "Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own …"



These 2 statements tell the story, if he's not sure that Gohan alone can't deal with Boo then that makes my point clear what the narrative is going for.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:55 am

Ripper 30 wrote: That was the point, Vegeta thought it will work for better but you really think he will get even weaker than Good Boo?

Goku wanting to obliterate Boo has got nothing to do with him being stronger but similar to how Piccolo wanted to gather enough ki to kill Raditz and asking someone else to distract Boo, that's it.

These same guides imply that Evil Boo is just little stronger than Fat Boo and Pure Boo being the strongest unfused Boo btw.
Weaking him to anywhere near their realm of power was all Vegeta wanted. Evil or Good Boo may still be too much for them, but the odds of he and Goku wining are astronomically higher than if they were to fight

Yeah, but there's a difference. Where's Goku pulling the power to charge his attack from?

I don't think the Daizenshuu has ever implied Pure Boo is stronger other than vague statements. In fact, it's the opposite: Daizenshuu hints more than once that Pure Boo is not the strongest.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Miracles » Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:49 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:[
Miracles wrote:Gohan was dead; killed by Kid Buu. Also there are no other statements contradicting Goku's remark and action about Evil Buu being stronger than Kid Buu. You are trying to pretend there are cause you need a way to twist the story to your fancy.
Gohan was revived with second Wish so there we go, i am not the one giving headcanons as to why Elder Kaioshin or anyone didn't ask Gohan to one shot Boo after second wish even though Elder Kaioshin had his hand full after he saw how close to losing they were even after Genki-Dama.
Gohans was dead when Vegeta stated Goku was the only one capable of fighting Kid Buu. Gohan was unconscious when Goku didn't want to fight Suoer Buu. You are using headcanon still to try and justify your point.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Darkprince410 » Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:10 pm

See, good boo represents Kaioshin influence pure boo gains after absorbing both kaioshins, if South kaioshin made pure boo stronger then why would removing Good boo from Evil Boo result in power increase?
Boo shouldn't have gotten a boost in power if his power source is removed. It makes no sense that after removing the power of Kaioshins, evil boo would draw on the power of a Kaioshin (reverting back to "Buff boo"). So what power he was drawing on turning into buff boo was himself. He has no more Kaioshin influence, only his unrestricted power to feed off. According to your logic, it would be like Cell after puking Android 18 growing Stronger in his fight vs Cell. Thats why he never stayed in "Buff form", if he's just responding to loss of Dai Kaioshin influence then he should have stayed in Buff form but no, he kept on changing. The argument of both Kaioshins not weakening Boo doesn't stand when examining Boo's increase in power just after removing Good Boo. It might work if only Dai Kaioshin influence was removed but no it was the influence of both Kaioshins including South Kaioshin and Boo didn't have power to feed off of. After becoming Buff Boo he never stops transforming and his power never stopped growing and he reverts into original form. Anyone looking at it objectively can conclude that without Kaioshins suppressing him, boo didn't have their power to feed off of leaving him with his own unrestricted power to feed off. South Kaioshin is also never said to increase Pure Boo's Power, he's only called the strongest Kaioshin demonstrating how their best also was no match for Boo.

So if Pure Evil Boo is stronger than Pure Boo and early Fat Boo's Power that fought Goku ssj3 equals that of Good Boo's and Evil Boo's combined, then That Fat Boo which fought Goku in ssj3 is also Stronger than Pure Boo.

If Fat Boo is the result of Kaioshin influence restraining Pure Boo, then how could Pure Evil Boo be Boo's equal, let alone stronger?

Kaioshin ki cannot help Boo that's why Dabra explicitly states that they can't take ki of Kibito and Kaioshin. But rest are option. Why won't they, after all they were planning to take Ki from weaker human fodders in Tenkaichi Budokai either way. Why does Fusion stats activated in Boo's body but the moment they lower the barrier, the Potara stops functioning? It's same thing about Kaioshin powers not working with Majin powers. You are literally stretching this, there's absolutely no mention of South Kaioshin powering up Boo in manga just the implication that "even our strongest was absorbed" that's it, Dai Kaioshin made him controllable but it's influence of Kaioshins which weakened Boo. Just because Dai Kaioshin had Pure heart that doesn't mean it can weaken him. Otherwise Gohan and Goten should have weakened him too. It's the Gods he absorbed which weakened him and you can't access ki from someone who's not their otherwise why not access Gohan's or Gotenks ki? No, i already told you about how in Manga its one Panel Boo realizing that Gotenks time is up and next panel being Piccolo-Boo, Gohan found the earring before he stopped in the middle of punching Goku. It was him being Gotenks-Boo then Piccolo-Boo in subsequent panels. Want more proof? When Goku remove Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Piccolo he reverts back INSTANTLY and never did their Ki go up, according to your headcanon after removing Gohan he ki should go up and then go down then same should happen with remaining three absorbed ones, it hardly makes sense. With Fat Boo removed there is no power to feed off of other than his own, that's why he doesn't stop at Buff Form and was basically transforming in reverse that's why Kibitoshin notices the process and was scared. You're just making your own assumptions that the power south Kaioshin increased was more than the energy Dai Kaioshin made him lose like, what?
Wow, you're now changing the dialogues too. All Goku told that he needs to charge Ki for a minute, and he never said "at my full power i can kill him" because he was holding back to begin with. Also, again adding your own lines about him only doing hand to hand :crazy:

Goku:"here I am trying to obliterate him but I need to gather enough ki for a minute"


is what he Said, which shows he's not holding back by any stretch. At this point you just can't admit even obvious facts that Pure Boo was toying with Goku and read the Manga again, he actually tanked 2 Kamehamehas not one, Goku started with Kamehameha too. Again assuming what you want to as fact.

Goku: "He keeps coming back no matter what i do"


That's enough implication of Goku trying his all into the fight to obliterate Boo.

Funny thing is, you are just making random assumptions with his "Worst Case scenario" statement.

Again that's illogical, you either way aren't even going with what Toriyama meant and in Boo arc Genki Dama Vegeta clearly said he will ask them to give their Ki right upto their very limits. Even in Manga its Ki, plants can't have health Energy but they can have Ki. You are at this point either changing Context from Manga or downright refuse to go with what Manga is saying since it uses Ki in this case. Genki can be interchangeable since Yuuki and Shouki are mental state and have nothing to do with energy. There isn't any translation in English/American Lexicon and it translates as a noun and adjective. As a noun : "Energy" and as an adjective it's "Energetic", That's why Goku collected enough Power to badly damage Vegeta from just nature. Why are you using Toriyama's words when you don't even accept the words written by Toriyama in manga like how both Goku and Vegeta start using the word Ki. Believe it or not it's Ki, not some health Energy thing which you made up. Otherwise Goku and Vegeta won't use word Ki.

I am not even talking about Vegeta here,
Goku concerning Pure Boo : "i know you are gonna get Gohan and Gotenks so that they can fight too"

Goku concerning Piccolo-Boo : "Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat-you even on his own…"



These 2 statements tell the story, if he's not sure that Gohan alone can't deal with Boo then that makes my point clear what the narrative is going for. Goku is interpreting Both Boos not me.
Within Mr. Buu was the two Kaioushin, and through him, Buu was gaining access to both their ki sources. So when Mr. Buu was removed, what remained of their ki within him had to be burned off. This is the only logical explanation for why we see Buu regress to South Kaioushin Buu and then to Pure Buu, because he burned off what ki remained of Dai Kaioushin first and then what remained of South Kaioushin's. You've been asked to logically explain some other reason for us seeing Buu revert the way he did, but have failed to do so. There's only one logical reason for it.

We also can logically extrapolate from information said that South Kaioushin had to increase Buu's power. After Vegetto was absorbed but Buu didn't change, Rou Kaioushin says this.
Elder Kaioshin: “…Don’t you think it’s a little strange? …Each time Majin Boo has absorbed a warrior up to now, his power has gone up and his appearance has changed…But this time…”
Kaioshin: “He hasn’t changed…! What’s that mean!?”
Kibitoshin doesn't, at this point, contradict him or say that he's wrong. He just is surprised by the lack of change. Now, with that in mind, he makes the later specification, when speaking of Pure Buu's origins, that the Dai Kaioushin affected Buu differently and negatively, suppressing his strength. Therefore, we have the standard already established (absorbing someone = transformation and power boost) and then it later established that Dai Kaioushin is the contradiction to this. Therefore, South Kaioushin was not a contradiction to this, and thus he powered Buu up when absorbed. Gohan and Goten didn't affect him negatively when they were absorbed because they're just not on the same level of purity that the Dai Kaioushin was. Likewise, you're wrong with Gotenks Buu's reversion to Piccolo Buu. He stops his charge first (and we see a subsequent panel of Goku reacting in surprise to it, then Gohan finds the earring, and then Buu transforms. Buu stopped because the fusion wore off, not because he suddenly realized it was going to wear off or something like that, so the subsequent panels between him stopping and then actual reversion was him changing in reaction to what happened inside.

What dialogue are you saying I changed? Those were all just direct quotes from the manga. I never changed or altered dialogue at all.

Goku's line following Buu regenerating from the second Kamehameha he fired:
Goku: “…Dammit…! Like I thought, even if I keep doing the same thing, that bastard’s stamina doesn’t fall…! He just returns to being good as new right away…”
Then, his comment about having not had the chance to attack him with a full power blast.
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
And then him specifying that his powering up was meant to get him back to full strength
Goku: “I…I know..! I know, but…It’s strange… I gathered my ki close to full power, but…The ki which I al…already gathered has begun falling off…!”
These are the quotes from the original manga in their most accurate state, not the Viz translations. These are independently corroborated too, and not my own personal translations just to try and sway the argument (I'll address that now since you're accusing me of making up dialogue).

I am going precisely by what Toriyama said though. Why is it that genki and ki can be used interchangeably to be describing ki (for your interpretation of it) and not the other way around? That, when speaking of genki, they can use either genki or ki. That's far less logical to use it interchangeably for your interpretation of it (adding an unnecessary syllable), but far more logical for mine (to be removing a syllable). It also explains why Goku specifically asks for genki from Earth's population. Again, there are far more than just three elements of ki, and I don't know why you just keep referencing shouki and yuuki like they and genki are the only ones. As for "health energy", I am going based off what genki specifically means, which fits perfectly with what we see from the random person and Kibitoshin once they donated. The technique is called the Genki Dama, Toriyama established that genki is one of many elements that make up ki, and it is asked specifically by Goku for the people of the Earth to donate genki. Logically then, it's genki that it uses, and Goku and Vegeta using ki is them simply truncating genki down rather than meaning that it actually is using the entirety of ki.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Ripper 30 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:40 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Ripper 30 wrote: That was the point, Vegeta thought it will work for better but you really think he will get even weaker than Good Boo?

Goku wanting to obliterate Boo has got nothing to do with him being stronger but similar to how Piccolo wanted to gather enough ki to kill Raditz and asking someone else to distract Boo, that's it.

These same guides imply that Evil Boo is just little stronger than Fat Boo and Pure Boo being the strongest unfused Boo btw.
Weaking him to anywhere near their realm of power was all Vegeta wanted. Evil or Good Boo may still be too much for them, but the odds of he and Goku wining are astronomically higher than if they were to fight

Yeah, but there's a difference. Where's Goku pulling the power to charge his attack from?

I don't think the Daizenshuu has ever implied Pure Boo is stronger other than vague statements. In fact, it's the opposite: Daizenshuu hints more than once that Pure Boo is not the strongest.
Image
Gotenks-Boo and Gohan-Boo have additions. I am talking about base only. Where does Daizenshuu says that Evil Boo without absorptions is stronger than Pure Boo?
Darkprince410 wrote: Within Mr. Buu was the two Kaioushin, and through him, Buu was gaining access to both their ki sources. So when Mr. Buu was removed, what remained of their ki within him had to be burned off. This is the only logical explanation for why we see Buu regress to South Kaioushin Buu and then to Pure Buu, because he burned off what ki remained of Dai Kaioushin first and then what remained of South Kaioushin's. You've been asked to logically explain some other reason for us seeing Buu revert the way he did, but have failed to do so. There's only one logical reason for it.

We also can logically extrapolate from information said that South Kaioushin had to increase Buu's power. After Vegetto was absorbed but Buu didn't change, Rou Kaioushin says this.
Elder Kaioshin: “…Don’t you think it’s a little strange? …Each time Majin Boo has absorbed a warrior up to now, his power has gone up and his appearance has changed…But this time…”
Kaioshin: “He hasn’t changed…! What’s that mean!?”
Kibitoshin doesn't, at this point, contradict him or say that he's wrong. He just is surprised by the lack of change. Now, with that in mind, he makes the later specification, when speaking of Pure Buu's origins, that the Dai Kaioushin affected Buu differently and negatively, suppressing his strength. Therefore, we have the standard already established (absorbing someone = transformation and power boost) and then it later established that Dai Kaioushin is the contradiction to this. Therefore, South Kaioushin was not a contradiction to this, and thus he powered Buu up when absorbed. Gohan and Goten didn't affect him negatively when they were absorbed because they're just not on the same level of purity that the Dai Kaioushin was. Likewise, you're wrong with Gotenks Buu's reversion to Piccolo Buu. He stops his charge first (and we see a subsequent panel of Goku reacting in surprise to it, then Gohan finds the earring, and then Buu transforms. Buu stopped because the fusion wore off, not because he suddenly realized it was going to wear off or something like that, so the subsequent panels between him stopping and then actual reversion was him changing in reaction to what happened inside.

What dialogue are you saying I changed? Those were all just direct quotes from the manga. I never changed or altered dialogue at all.

Goku's line following Buu regenerating from the second Kamehameha he fired:
Goku: “…Dammit…! Like I thought, even if I keep doing the same thing, that bastard’s stamina doesn’t fall…! He just returns to being good as new right away…”
Then, his comment about having not had the chance to attack him with a full power blast.
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
And then him specifying that his powering up was meant to get him back to full strength
Goku: “I…I know..! I know, but…It’s strange… I gathered my ki close to full power, but…The ki which I al…already gathered has begun falling off…!”
These are the quotes from the original manga in their most accurate state, not the Viz translations. These are independently corroborated too, and not my own personal translations just to try and sway the argument (I'll address that now since you're accusing me of making up dialogue).

I am going precisely by what Toriyama said though. Why is it that genki and ki can be used interchangeably to be describing ki (for your interpretation of it) and not the other way around? That, when speaking of genki, they can use either genki or ki. That's far less logical to use it interchangeably for your interpretation of it (adding an unnecessary syllable), but far more logical for mine (to be removing a syllable). It also explains why Goku specifically asks for genki from Earth's population. Again, there are far more than just three elements of ki, and I don't know why you just keep referencing shouki and yuuki like they and genki are the only ones. As for "health energy", I am going based off what genki specifically means, which fits perfectly with what we see from the random person and Kibitoshin once they donated. The technique is called the Genki Dama, Toriyama established that genki is one of many elements that make up ki, and it is asked specifically by Goku for the people of the Earth to donate genki. Logically then, it's genki that it uses, and Goku and Vegeta using ki is them simply truncating genki down rather than meaning that it actually is using the entirety of ki.
No, again you're making your own theories of "Ki burning", it's simple he can't feed off anyone's power after the source is gone and if something made you powerful and it's removed then that means, the person who absorbed them should naturally get stronger but it's due to nature of Kaioshins that Boo doesn't get any stronger and on the contrary gets weaker. At this point you are making up the theories, even The dub interpreted it this way that Kaioshins weakened him and Toei Animation too interpreted this way, many guides interpreted this way, yet this Fandom gives whatever excuse possible to show Pure Boo weaker than their "Badass" Evil Boo and Gohan despite narrative not making sense, also breaking the natural trope of DB with escalations and assuming Toriyama for no reason will change the trope for final villain.

In manga, there is absolutely no indication towards South Kaioshin powering him up. All they said was that he turned into that Boo that's it. This clearly shows that Kibitoshin implied that even their best was no match for him and if there was a boost from South Kaioshin Kibitoshin should have said it but no he never singled him out of powering up Boo, all he said was that Boo lowered his power through absorption and as i told you in Japanese there's no plural but the fact that he neither singled out South Kaioshin of giving Pure Boo power and how Dabra stated that Kaioshin ki can't power up Boo's revival and how Potara fusion stopped functioning in Boo's body, it's clear that Majin powers don't work with Kaioshin powers. Kaioshin weaken Majin demons, that's why after taking the source of Kaioshin influence from boo, his Ki rose and never had anyone implied that it goes down. Even if we count Goku and Vegeta out, there are still Dende, Elder Kaioshin and Kibitoshin still no one mentioned anything about ki. On the contrary their reaction say something else and its a bit stretch to assume Evil Boo ki would go up then go conveniently go down even below Evil Boo for no reason just because you think so?

That's why Kaioshin act opposite, why would Dai Kaioshin influence make boo weak just because he's gentle? That doesn't make sense because Gohan and Goten don't power down Boo just because of pure heart. It has all got to do with Kaioshins. What? "Same level of purity" :crazy:... It has nothing to do with purity but Race, Saiyans power him up and Kaioshin don't, at this point you're refusing to listen to manga evidence too.

you're just trying to come up with excuses now. There isn't a scale for purity, either someone is pure hearted or someone isn't, this purity scaling is something you came up with. Pure Boo just took forms of Gods he absorbed, gained a heart and way to communicate but lowered his powers a lot. Even if i go by your theories, "Plus" and "Minus" result in "Minus" so even if you assume one was powering him down and one (for no reason) powering him up, then they both will be combined in Fat Boo's body which is why overall Fat Boo was weakened and Vegeta took out the source of both of them and that's why his Ki rose and he was going through process again but it's completely illogical to assume he was accessing South Kaioshin ki because :
1) he never stops at Buff form and keeps going on
2) there is no mention of Ki decreasing after that
3) it happens the moment the source is cut off
4) there is no mention of South Kaioshin powering him up.
Again no, Gohan finds the earrings first and then Boo stops. Even then it's hardly lengthy process, he just realized he's gonna get weak and he turns to Piccolo-Boo instantly.

Okay here's a question, if Goku said he wasn't holding back when fighting Boo, what makes you think the one minute Ki charge will make him any powerful? If anything he was at his strongest when he started but either way he wanted to fuse with Vegeta and realized Potara was best but due to them crushing it all they were left with was to deal with him alone. Just because Goku thought his Warp Kamehameha killed Cell doesn't mean he killed him, just because Cell and Freeza thought that they can Kill their opponents at 100% of the power doesn't mean they can. If you read the translation, it's clearly implied that Pure Boo was toying with Goku and lollygagging around for fun. Goku himself admitted that he needs to train to be able to beat Boo and even after 10 years he thought that Oob will a challenge for him and he has been waiting for him, that clearly shows that Goku realized he's weaker than Pure Boo.

Again, it's energy in general. Read the chapter where Kaio taught him. Plants and animals can have Ki but you can't possess Genki. It's interchangeable with the term Energy and Genki is either way the one for vitality and the other two are for mental state but when the characters say "ask for every bit of Ki they can donate" then it's clear. In earlier Genki-Dama Goku took little bit of Ki but this time he took every ki possible and this why people were not able to stand up, felt exhausted and were tired because it's like draining Ki from hands. If even the fusion of Kibito and Kaioshin feels tired after donating energy that he can even teleport, then it's clear that it's Ki or energy in general. You're just trying to complicate the DB lore for no reason and for your own convenience use either Toriyama excuse or wherever so that it makes sense with your theories.
Miracles wrote: Gohans was dead when Vegeta stated Goku was the only one capable of fighting Kid Buu. Gohan was unconscious when Goku didn't want to fight Suoer Buu. You are using headcanon still to try and justify your point.
No, Gohan can't be dead if Goku is recommending both of them also to lend a hand in fight. Are you sure i am the one using headcanons?
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by TobyS » Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:55 am

As I said in the other thread. There is zero reason not to bring both of them.

They are together and if the wish is worded right they can all be brought along with one wish.

Gotenks might fuck up and get injured and it's another person to deflect any planet destroying attacks.

There's no reason to assume they'd need both or all 4 to beat Buu.

If Buu was strong enough to fight gohan let alone gohan and gotenks he'd slaughter goku and vegeta in an instant

Goku is weaker than evil buu. He puts up a fight against kid buu and could wipe him out at full power. He expected and no one contradicts ss1 gotenks pre being in his league or stronger.

Ss3 post gotenks and gohan are faaar stronger than that.

Anyone believing otherwise is just wanking Goku and vegeta and twisting obvious shit to fit that bias.
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Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Miracles » Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:43 am

Ripper 30 wrote:
Miracles wrote: Gohans was dead when Vegeta stated Goku was the only one capable of fighting Kid Buu. Gohan was unconscious when Goku didn't want to fight Suoer Buu. You are using headcanon still to try and justify your point.
No, Gohan can't be dead if Goku is recommending both of them also to lend a hand in fight. Are you sure i am the one using headcanons?
Yes, you are using headcanons cause Vegeta stating Goku is the only one capable of fighting kid buu is a fact. This was BEFORE Gohan was brought back to life. THEN Goku THOUGHT Vegeta wanted to bring Gohan and Gotenks to fight too. How does that statement change Vegeta's fact that Goku was the only one who fought Kid Buu toe to toe at the time and had the power to completely wipe kid buu out? Nothing you say changes the story facts.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Darkprince410 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:05 am

No, again you're making your own theories of "Ki burning", it's simple he can't feed off anyone's power after the source is gone and if something made you powerful and it's removed then that means, the person who absorbed them should naturally get stronger but it's due to nature of Kaioshins that Boo doesn't get any stronger and on the contrary gets weaker. At this point you are making up the theories, even The dub interpreted it this way that Kaioshins weakened him and Toei Animation too interpreted this way, many guides interpreted this way, yet this Fandom gives whatever excuse possible to show Pure Boo weaker than their "Badass" Evil Boo and Gohan despite narrative not making sense, also breaking the natural trope of DB with escalations and assuming Toriyama for no reason will change the trope for final villain.

In manga, there is absolutely no indication towards South Kaioshin powering him up. All they said was that he turned into that Boo that's it. This clearly shows that Kibitoshin implied that even their best was no match for him and if there was a boost from South Kaioshin Kibitoshin should have said it but no he never singled him out of powering up Boo, all he said was that Boo lowered his power through absorption and as i told you in Japanese there's no plural but the fact that he neither singled out South Kaioshin of giving Pure Boo power and how Dabra stated that Kaioshin ki can't power up Boo's revival and how Potara fusion stopped functioning in Boo's body, it's clear that Majin powers don't work with Kaioshin powers. Kaioshin weaken Majin demons, that's why after taking the source of Kaioshin influence from boo, his Ki rose and never had anyone implied that it goes down. Even if we count Goku and Vegeta out, there are still Dende, Elder Kaioshin and Kibitoshin still no one mentioned anything about ki. On the contrary their reaction say something else and its a bit stretch to assume Evil Boo ki would go up then go conveniently go down even below Evil Boo for no reason just because you think so?

That's why Kaioshin act opposite, why would Dai Kaioshin influence make boo weak just because he's gentle? That doesn't make sense because Gohan and Goten don't power down Boo just because of pure heart. It has all got to do with Kaioshins. What? "Same level of purity" :crazy:... It has nothing to do with purity but Race, Saiyans power him up and Kaioshin don't, at this point you're refusing to listen to manga evidence too.

you're just trying to come up with excuses now. There isn't a scale for purity, either someone is pure hearted or someone isn't, this purity scaling is something you came up with. Pure Boo just took forms of Gods he absorbed, gained a heart and way to communicate but lowered his powers a lot. Even if i go by your theories, "Plus" and "Minus" result in "Minus" so even if you assume one was powering him down and one (for no reason) powering him up, then they both will be combined in Fat Boo's body which is why overall Fat Boo was weakened and Vegeta took out the source of both of them and that's why his Ki rose and he was going through process again but it's completely illogical to assume he was accessing South Kaioshin ki because :
1) he never stops at Buff form and keeps going on
2) there is no mention of Ki decreasing after that
3) it happens the moment the source is cut off
4) there is no mention of South Kaioshin powering him up.
Again no, Gohan finds the earrings first and then Boo stops. Even then it's hardly lengthy process, he just realized he's gonna get weak and he turns to Piccolo-Boo instantly.

Okay here's a question, if Goku said he wasn't holding back when fighting Boo, what makes you think the one minute Ki charge will make him any powerful? If anything he was at his strongest when he started but either way he wanted to fuse with Vegeta and realized Potara was best but due to them crushing it all they were left with was to deal with him alone. Just because Goku thought his Warp Kamehameha killed Cell doesn't mean he killed him, just because Cell and Freeza thought that they can Kill their opponents at 100% of the power doesn't mean they can. If you read the translation, it's clearly implied that Pure Boo was toying with Goku and lollygagging around for fun. Goku himself admitted that he needs to train to be able to beat Boo and even after 10 years he thought that Oob will a challenge for him and he has been waiting for him, that clearly shows that Goku realized he's weaker than Pure Boo.

Again, it's energy in general. Read the chapter where Kaio taught him. Plants and animals can have Ki but you can't possess Genki. It's interchangeable with the term Energy and Genki is either way the one for vitality and the other two are for mental state but when the characters say "ask for every bit of Ki they can donate" then it's clear. In earlier Genki-Dama Goku took little bit of Ki but this time he took every ki possible and this why people were not able to stand up, felt exhausted and were tired because it's like draining Ki from hands. If even the fusion of Kibito and Kaioshin feels tired after donating energy that he can even teleport, then it's clear that it's Ki or energy in general. You're just trying to complicate the DB lore for no reason and for your own convenience use either Toriyama excuse or wherever so that it makes sense with your theories.
The only guides that interpreted it that way are guides that include the anime, and that's because of Toei's penchant for making Goku out to be the absolute strongest, so they made Pure Buu out to be the strongest. It's funny how Dragon Ball Forever, a manga guide book, specifically says that the removal of absorptions made Buu weaker, and even showed Vegeta removing Mr. Buu as an illustration to that fact.

It's not simply a matter of me thinking/saying so. We have a clearly stated fact of Goku saying he can't beat Evil Buu, then him questioning whether or not Buu's ki is increasing, and then showing confidence that they might be able to manage something and a persistent belief that he can defeat Buu on his own. Do you think that Goku would adhere to that if Pure Buu was more powerful or emitting a level of ki above what he had said he couldn't beat? You keep saying that Kibitoshin's reactions supersede Goku's, but Kaioushin has been shown time and again to be a horrible ki detector (thinking Vegeta couldn't handle Pui Pui, feeling Gohan stood no chance against Dabra when we later see he could hold his own fairly well against him as a Super Saiyan, thought he could actually help in the battle against Gotenks Buu after merging with Kibito, etc). He's terrible at ki detecting, so his fear of Pure Buu shouldn't be held as gospel over the likes of Goku, who is a far more reliable ki detector.

And I already established that the precedent was set that South Kaioushin increased Buu's power. It was established by Rou Kaioushin that all that Buu absorbed increased his strength and gave him a form change, and Kibitoshin didn't counter this. Then, he did counter it later by specifically saying that the Dai Kaioushin affected Buu negatively. As for purity, given that it's specifically said that the Dai Kaioushin affected him negatively, and no one else did, then obviously there has to be varying levels, and only the Dai Kaioushin had a level to affect him negatively.

1) He still transitions from Evil Buu to Pure Buu though. If all their ki was removed from him instantly, then he shouldn't have transformed into South Kaioushin Buu at all, but immediately to Pure Buu. Him changing to South Kaioushin Buu though means that there was some influence within him still at the time.

2) Goku implies it with his confidence in them being able to do something against Pure Buu, when before he insisted they couldn't do anything against Evil Buu. There's no evidence saying that Goku was lying when he said that about Evil Buu, and no evidence that he was going by Buu's size when making the comment about Pure Buu.

3) Gotenks Buu's reversion shows otherwise.

4) We're told that only Dai Kaioushin affected Buu negatively, meaning that South Kaioushin didn't.

And no, we see him stop before Gohan finds the earring, as we even see his reaction right as he stopped on the panel before Gohan lifts it up. Then, all the while that he's asking about what he's supposed to do with it, Buu is shown fidgeting around, continuing to revert.

Goku wasn't holding back against Pure Buu, but at the same time he never tried just blasting Buu with a full power attack. He specifically states as much. Neither Kamehameha he used against Buu was full power, and his attempts to attack him through melee attacks throughout the course of their battle. So he realized that attacking him the way he had been wasn't going to cut it, and needed a minute to gather his ki in order to attack him a different way (i.e. a full power blast). And it's clear from the dialogue that Buu didn't start playing around with Goku until after the second Kamehameha, when he decided to just dance around instead of regenerating, because that's when Goku first addresses it and specifically addresses it in regards to what he was doing just then.

No, ki and genki aren't the same. We have Toriyama establish specifically that genki is a single element of ki, thus he is saying they aren't the same thing, and therefore we have to fit that into everything. The earlier Genki Dama passively took bits of genki, when the one in the Buu arc took all genki that the individuals could safely donate. Since plants and animals also have more energy when healthy than they do when sickly, then they too have genki. It's not something that just humans have. Again, there's not just three elements to ki, and we know this even from what's said in universe. Just because Toriyama mentioned three (and two of them were related to mentality) doesn't meant that there are just three and the physical one is the only one that's donated.

When Goku comments on Spopovitch when he's fighting Videl, he comments on Spopovitch's life energy, in the fact that he had none he could sense. Life, in this situation, being written as "seiki", establishing yet another element of ki
Goku: “Like I thought, that Spopovitch guy is weird…He seems too fine, despite the fact that he should have taken so much damage, and I can’t sense any life from him…”
I'm not trying to complicate things. I'm trying to just go by what is explained to us.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Ripper 30 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:45 pm

TobyS wrote:As I said in the other thread. There is zero reason not to bring both of them.

They are together and if the wish is worded right they can all be brought along with one wish.

Gotenks might fuck up and get injured and it's another person to deflect any planet destroying attacks.

There's no reason to assume they'd need both or all 4 to beat Buu.

If Buu was strong enough to fight gohan let alone gohan and gotenks he'd slaughter goku and vegeta in an instant

Goku is weaker than evil buu. He puts up a fight against kid buu and could wipe him out at full power. He expected and no one contradicts ss1 gotenks pre being in his league or stronger.

Ss3 post gotenks and gohan are faaar stronger than that.

Anyone believing otherwise is just wanking Goku and vegeta and twisting obvious shit to fit that bias.
You are making headcanons again, none of Goku's lines even remotely hint at Gohan being enough, it's that simple. If it was about together, then Goku would mention Piccolo too. Boo was easily above everyone and was toying with everyone, obviously he could have killed them all when he wanted to, isn't that obvious? Even after fighting Goku, Vegeta, Good Boo and Satan he had enough power to deal with Universal Genki-Dama and that's the only time we see him genuinely worried and Earnest with his power.
Miracles wrote:Yes, you are using headcanons cause Vegeta stating Goku is the only one capable of fighting kid buu is a fact. This was BEFORE Gohan was brought back to life. THEN Goku THOUGHT Vegeta wanted to bring Gohan and Gotenks to fight too. How does that statement change Vegeta's fact that Goku was the only one who fought Kid Buu toe to toe at the time and had the power to completely wipe kid buu out? Nothing you say changes the story facts.
Dude.... When Vegeta was giving that speech, he thought Goku was holding back for his sake but Goku wasn't, you're not making sense.
Darkprince410 wrote:The only guides that interpreted it that way are guides that include the anime, and that's because of Toei's penchant for making Goku out to be the absolute strongest, so they made Pure Buu out to be the strongest. It's funny how Dragon Ball Forever, a manga guide book, specifically says that the removal of absorptions made Buu weaker, and even showed Vegeta removing Mr. Buu as an illustration to that fact.

It's not simply a matter of me thinking/saying so. We have a clearly stated fact of Goku saying he can't beat Evil Buu, then him questioning whether or not Buu's ki is increasing, and then showing confidence that they might be able to manage something and a persistent belief that he can defeat Buu on his own. Do you think that Goku would adhere to that if Pure Buu was more powerful or emitting a level of ki above what he had said he couldn't beat? You keep saying that Kibitoshin's reactions supersede Goku's, but Kaioushin has been shown time and again to be a horrible ki detector (thinking Vegeta couldn't handle Pui Pui, feeling Gohan stood no chance against Dabra when we later see he could hold his own fairly well against him as a Super Saiyan, thought he could actually help in the battle against Gotenks Buu after merging with Kibito, etc). He's terrible at ki detecting, so his fear of Pure Buu shouldn't be held as gospel over the likes of Goku, who is a far more reliable ki detector.

And I already established that the precedent was set that South Kaioushin increased Buu's power. It was established by Rou Kaioushin that all that Buu absorbed increased his strength and gave him a form change, and Kibitoshin didn't counter this. Then, he did counter it later by specifically saying that the Dai Kaioushin affected Buu negatively. As for purity, given that it's specifically said that the Dai Kaioushin affected him negatively, and no one else did, then obviously there has to be varying levels, and only the Dai Kaioushin had a level to affect him negatively.

1) He still transitions from Evil Buu to Pure Buu though. If all their ki was removed from him instantly, then he shouldn't have transformed into South Kaioushin Buu at all, but immediately to Pure Buu. Him changing to South Kaioushin Buu though means that there was some influence within him still at the time.

2) Goku implies it with his confidence in them being able to do something against Pure Buu, when before he insisted they couldn't do anything against Evil Buu. There's no evidence saying that Goku was lying when he said that about Evil Buu, and no evidence that he was going by Buu's size when making the comment about Pure Buu.

3) Gotenks Buu's reversion shows otherwise.

4) We're told that only Dai Kaioushin affected Buu negatively, meaning that South Kaioushin didn't.

And no, we see him stop before Gohan finds the earring, as we even see his reaction right as he stopped on the panel before Gohan lifts it up. Then, all the while that he's asking about what he's supposed to do with it, Buu is shown fidgeting around, continuing to revert.

Goku wasn't holding back against Pure Buu, but at the same time he never tried just blasting Buu with a full power attack. He specifically states as much. Neither Kamehameha he used against Buu was full power, and his attempts to attack him through melee attacks throughout the course of their battle. So he realized that attacking him the way he had been wasn't going to cut it, and needed a minute to gather his ki in order to attack him a different way (i.e. a full power blast). And it's clear from the dialogue that Buu didn't start playing around with Goku until after the second Kamehameha, when he decided to just dance around instead of regenerating, because that's when Goku first addresses it and specifically addresses it in regards to what he was doing just then.

No, ki and genki aren't the same. We have Toriyama establish specifically that genki is a single element of ki, thus he is saying they aren't the same thing, and therefore we have to fit that into everything. The earlier Genki Dama passively took bits of genki, when the one in the Buu arc took all genki that the individuals could safely donate. Since plants and animals also have more energy when healthy than they do when sickly, then they too have genki. It's not something that just humans have. Again, there's not just three elements to ki, and we know this even from what's said in universe. Just because Toriyama mentioned three (and two of them were related to mentality) doesn't meant that there are just three and the physical one is the only one that's donated.

When Goku comments on Spopovitch when he's fighting Videl, he comments on Spopovitch's life energy, in the fact that he had none he could sense. Life, in this situation, being written as "seiki", establishing yet another element of ki
Goku: “Like I thought, that Spopovitch guy is weird…He seems too fine, despite the fact that he should have taken so much damage, and I can’t sense any life from him…”
I'm not trying to complicate things. I'm trying to just go by what is explained to us.
Pure Boo being Strongest isn't some Toei-only thing. They just mirrored the intentions of manga and made it obvious, it's not like Red Ribbon Army arc filler where they unnecessarily add the contradiction of Dr. Frappe being the one to make Android 8, the Manga was already over by the point they reached Kaioshin Planet fight in anime and they just made it more obvious with the info they had. Dragon Ball Forever is wrong then, simple.

We have Goku telling Kuririn that he's no match for Fat Boo if Vegeta wasn't to him telling Piccolo that he probably would have lost to him actually telling that he could have killed Boo if he tried. Also, he's not questioning, it definitely increasing and he was asking Vegeta about it. Him and Vegeta showing confidence in taking on Boo is due to the same gag Toriyama plays, like how he even told Freeza that he's smaller than he expected him to be, Vegeta did the same to Cell, it's them judging him from size. If Pure Boo ki went down then Goku would not forget to mention Ki and Kaioshins would instantly mention the Ki decrease and start celebrating like they did after seeing Evil Boo revert to base form. On the contrary, they showed opposite signs and its only your assumption that the Ki went down when no one mentioned about it, neither on Earth nor on Kaioshin realm. Ki can fluctuate, Toriyama's the one writing the show, if he wanted he could have made Goku comment on Pure Boo ki going down but he didn't and also, Goku loves fighting strong guys one-on-one, on Kaioshin planet he wasn't in a pinch like he was with Gohan-Boo where his main objective was to free up the kids from inside and then fight Boo. You are talking as if Goku is infallible and can't make errors in judgements even though the show has trope of someone mocking character's size and other showing opposite reaction.
Again, you are putting headcanons. If he was keeping track of battle and was celebrating with Elder Kaioshin after seeing Evil Boo revert to base then why would he get terrified after seeing Evil Boo revert to even weaker form even before Pure Boo blows up Earth? It makes no sense. Also, you can't gauge the power perfectly even if you're Goku, that's why Goku even after meeting Perfect Cell went to Karin to tell if Goku was stronger than Cell or not. Ki can fluctuate and one can't tell accurately how much power one is holding back or emitting. Kaioshin initially just underestimated Saiyans but was soon proven wrong, your examples aren't even making sense with what i am talking about.

No, Elder Kaioshin never said anything about the South Kaioshin powering him up, it's something you made up. Elder Kaioshin just asked if the Buff Form was what he turned into, again no mention of Ki increase, that's why he ended up asking if he was the Most Difficult Boo ever.

1) there maybe influence but since the source is taken out that Ki can't be his. If power source is taken out the Ki never goes up unless the source weakened him. He was just turning into Pure Boo in reverse process and doesn't stop changing at Buff Boo.

2) Goku only says that he will think of a plan while Pure Boo destroys planets that's it. That was the Perfect moment to mention Ki going down but he didn't, which means it never went down. Nope, you don't have any evidence which says directly that Pure Boo ki went down since no one talked about it, but just like how you use Goku's unwillingness to show Pure Boo's ki dropping, I can use Kaioshin's reaction to Pure Boo as the reason for his ki not going down.
3) Gotenks-Boo reversion is different, it's about the single absorptions in him splitting in 2 inside his body so obviously he will pause for a moment before changing back to Piccolo-Boo but with Good Boo, the Kaioshins were not there and Fat Boo alone was carrying their influence so it's one thing. Also, Why didn't Gotenks-Boo ki never went up to go down again?
4) we were never told that South Kaioshin powered him up and Kaioshin never singled out him about powering Boo up so it's obvious that Kaioshins weakened him. If he was Powerful than Pure Boo (which made no sense! he could have killed him but someone's nature can't lower the power. Notice how he only talks about controlling the nature when referring to Dai Kaioshin but it's only after Elder Kaioshin asked him about most difficult Boo that he answers about lowering power through absorptions. Which clearly means he was weakened by absorptions, at best the South Kaioshin had no effect on him or weakened him but definitely never powered him up.

Goku literally told Vegeta that he has been trying to kill him and fired 2 Kamehamehas for a reason. Goku explicitly stated that Pure Boo is drawing out the fight and having fun.
It's simple, if Goku is giving his all and not holding back and Pure Boo tanks the attacks and comes back everytime joking around, it means he's toying with him. That's why Goku started to regret about throwing away Potara and admitted he was showing off.

It's "Ki" which they use in Super Genki Dama that's why Kibitoshin can't teleport, it has always been Ki. It's they energy in general which we are used to. When the Manga also says Ki then it's clear you are going against the narrative.
I prefer Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DB/Z/GT Movies, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT in Japanese.
For DBZ Kai and two new Movies I like both Dub and Sub. I Prefer Shunsuke Kikuchi Soundtracks over All other Composers.
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Miracles » Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:31 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
Miracles wrote:Yes, you are using headcanons cause Vegeta stating Goku is the only one capable of fighting kid buu is a fact. This was BEFORE Gohan was brought back to life. THEN Goku THOUGHT Vegeta wanted to bring Gohan and Gotenks to fight too. How does that statement change Vegeta's fact that Goku was the only one who fought Kid Buu toe to toe at the time and had the power to completely wipe kid buu out? Nothing you say changes the story facts.
Dude.... When Vegeta was giving that speech, he thought Goku was holding back for his sake but Goku wasn't, you're not making sense. .
No you aren't making any sense because you are so mixed up by crossing quotes which have absolutely no bearing on the fact that Goku stated Super Buu will outright kill him and Vegeta but said he can fight Kid Buu head up. Goku did INDEED fight Kid Buu head up and add the fact that he had enough power to wipe him out too. However, Goku stated they needed fusion for Super Buu yet stated he would fight Kid Buu cause he isn't fused anymore. Vegeta backs this up even more about Goku being able to to go head up with Kid Buu but NO ONE EVER STATED HE COULD GO HEAD UP WITH SUPER BUU. So please tell me how does your off the subject quote about Goku asking Vegeta if Gohan and Gotenks would help with the fight against Kid Buu PROVE that Kid Buu is outright stronger than Super?DESPITE the facts that Goku was able to fight kid buu but didn't want any part of Super Buu? Please tell me...
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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by Darkprince410 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:05 pm

Pure Boo being Strongest isn't some Toei-only thing. They just mirrored the intentions of manga and made it obvious, it's not like Red Ribbon Army arc filler where they unnecessarily add the contradiction of Dr. Frappe being the one to make Android 8, the Manga was already over by the point they reached Kaioshin Planet fight in anime and they just made it more obvious with the info they had. Dragon Ball Forever is wrong then, simple.

We have Goku telling Kuririn that he's no match for Fat Boo if Vegeta wasn't to him telling Piccolo that he probably would have lost to him actually telling that he could have killed Boo if he tried. Also, he's not questioning, it definitely increasing and he was asking Vegeta about it. Him and Vegeta showing confidence in taking on Boo is due to the same gag Toriyama plays, like how he even told Freeza that he's smaller than he expected him to be, Vegeta did the same to Cell, it's them judging him from size. If Pure Boo ki went down then Goku would not forget to mention Ki and Kaioshins would instantly mention the Ki decrease and start celebrating like they did after seeing Evil Boo revert to base form. On the contrary, they showed opposite signs and its only your assumption that the Ki went down when no one mentioned about it, neither on Earth nor on Kaioshin realm. Ki can fluctuate, Toriyama's the one writing the show, if he wanted he could have made Goku comment on Pure Boo ki going down but he didn't and also, Goku loves fighting strong guys one-on-one, on Kaioshin planet he wasn't in a pinch like he was with Gohan-Boo where his main objective was to free up the kids from inside and then fight Boo. You are talking as if Goku is infallible and can't make errors in judgements even though the show has trope of someone mocking character's size and other showing opposite reaction.
Again, you are putting headcanons. If he was keeping track of battle and was celebrating with Elder Kaioshin after seeing Evil Boo revert to base then why would he get terrified after seeing Evil Boo revert to even weaker form even before Pure Boo blows up Earth? It makes no sense. Also, you can't gauge the power perfectly even if you're Goku, that's why Goku even after meeting Perfect Cell went to Karin to tell if Goku was stronger than Cell or not. Ki can fluctuate and one can't tell accurately how much power one is holding back or emitting. Kaioshin initially just underestimated Saiyans but was soon proven wrong, your examples aren't even making sense with what i am talking about.

No, Elder Kaioshin never said anything about the South Kaioshin powering him up, it's something you made up. Elder Kaioshin just asked if the Buff Form was what he turned into, again no mention of Ki increase, that's why he ended up asking if he was the Most Difficult Boo ever.

1) there maybe influence but since the source is taken out that Ki can't be his. If power source is taken out the Ki never goes up unless the source weakened him. He was just turning into Pure Boo in reverse process and doesn't stop changing at Buff Boo.

2) Goku only says that he will think of a plan while Pure Boo destroys planets that's it. That was the Perfect moment to mention Ki going down but he didn't, which means it never went down. Nope, you don't have any evidence which says directly that Pure Boo ki went down since no one talked about it, but just like how you use Goku's unwillingness to show Pure Boo's ki dropping, I can use Kaioshin's reaction to Pure Boo as the reason for his ki not going down.
3) Gotenks-Boo reversion is different, it's about the single absorptions in him splitting in 2 inside his body so obviously he will pause for a moment before changing back to Piccolo-Boo but with Good Boo, the Kaioshins were not there and Fat Boo alone was carrying their influence so it's one thing. Also, Why didn't Gotenks-Boo ki never went up to go down again?
4) we were never told that South Kaioshin powered him up and Kaioshin never singled out him about powering Boo up so it's obvious that Kaioshins weakened him. If he was Powerful than Pure Boo (which made no sense! he could have killed him but someone's nature can't lower the power. Notice how he only talks about controlling the nature when referring to Dai Kaioshin but it's only after Elder Kaioshin asked him about most difficult Boo that he answers about lowering power through absorptions. Which clearly means he was weakened by absorptions, at best the South Kaioshin had no effect on him or weakened him but definitely never powered him up.

Goku literally told Vegeta that he has been trying to kill him and fired 2 Kamehamehas for a reason. Goku explicitly stated that Pure Boo is drawing out the fight and having fun.
It's simple, if Goku is giving his all and not holding back and Pure Boo tanks the attacks and comes back everytime joking around, it means he's toying with him. That's why Goku started to regret about throwing away Potara and admitted he was showing off.

It's "Ki" which they use in Super Genki Dama that's why Kibitoshin can't teleport, it has always been Ki. It's they energy in general which we are used to. When the Manga also says Ki then it's clear you are going against the narrative.
When the manga's narrative strongly supports Evil Buu being stronger, and has nothing supporting Pure Buu being stronger, then no, it's a Toei invention that Pure Buu is the strongest.

For starters, as said before, Goku's comments on Fat Buu don't apply because it's actually said later that he was lying. With Evil Buu, that's not ever stated or even implied, so arguing that "he lied here, so he must have lied there as well" just doesn't work. And with Goku, his statement heavily implies it. Do you really believe that Goku would comment that he and Vegeta are able to manage something (and this being before the Earth was destroyed, so it wasn't the whole "we'll come up with a strategy" comment) if he sensed a level of power higher than South Kaioushin Buu, who was stronger than someone he admitted (without contradiction) was too strong for both he and Vegeta to fight? Kaioushin's entire history of sensing ki, from what we're shown, was terrible, with nearly all his fears being completely mistaken because he obviously couldn't sense ki properly. So why would his ki sensing suddenly be reliable, when beforehand it was shown to be so terrible? As for Goku with Cell, that's not a valid comparison, because Goku had nothing to go off of as far as Cell's actual strength, which is why he needed the outside source from someone who had actually been able to sense Cell putting out some level of power.

As I said, Rou Kaioushin, upon seeing Gohan Buu fail to transform after absorbing Vegetto, makes the comment that all individuals that Buu had absorbed up to that point had caused a transformation and a power up, and Kibitoshin, at the time, did not say this was wrong or inaccurate. It was only when Pure Buu's history was revealed that Kibitoshin established that this wasn't the case, but specifically that it was Dai Kaioushin that affected Buu negatively. As such, by Kibitoshin's clarification, South Kaioushin didn't affect Buu differently than normal, and what is normal, according to what is established, is that absorption increases power.

1) You're not explaining why South Kaioushin Buu appeared though. If you were correct, then he should have changed solely to Pure Buu, since there'd be no influence of South Kaioushin left within him to trigger that specific transformation. He's not going to transform without their influence in him, therefore Buu transforming into South Kaioushin Buu means there was some of his influence still within Buu.

2) Goku's comment once Pure Buu formed completely:
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
This is before he blew up the Earth, much less before Goku comments that they'll just hide out on Kaioushin's planet and come up with a strategy. He is, in a straightforward manner, saying that they can manage something against him, when beforehand he had said they'd stand no chance against Evil Buu.

3) It's still a situation of his body not transforming immediately, despite us knowing that Fusion itself breaks up immediately when it wears off. Also, why would his power go up in this situation? Gotenks was only powering him up, so Buu losing that source would only cause his power to drop. With what happened with Fat Buu, he burned through the influence of the Dai Kaioushin first, which caused the power boost (since he was the only Kaioushin weakening Buu) and then he lost power when South Kaioushin's influence burned off.

4) As mentioned above, we're told initially, without contradiction, that all absorptions made Buu stronger and caused a transformation, and then we're told that Dai Kaioushin affected him differently than normal. Since it's only Dai Kaioushin that's said to have affected him differently, then South Kaioushin affected him normally, thus causing him to grow stronger.

Goku literally tells Vegeta that he had been thinking of doing it when Vegeta suggests it, but hadn't had the chance:
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
So neither of Goku's previous Kamehameha were at full power, by his own admission. Likewise, Goku specifically indicates that his playing around started when Buu decided to not regenerate completely following Goku's second Kamehameha, and not that he was playing around the entire fight.
Goku: “That bastard…Even though he can quickly return to normal, he’s playing around by purposefully drawing it out…”
The manga has always had ki and genki used interchangeably when it came to the Genki Dama being spoken of, but at the same time, we've had characters specifically refer to Goku gathering genki for it. If it was always just ki, then there'd be no reason to ever have characters mentioning him trying to gather genki, but the manga has genki specifically being used.
Goku: “Everyone! Give me as much genki as you possibly can! Please!”
Why is Goku specifically asking for genki from the people of the Earth for the Genki Dama against Buu if it's just ki that it uses? The specific request for genki means that THAT is what the Genki Dama uses, and when ki is being mentioned in relation to the Genki Dama, they're meaning genki. Kibitoshin not having the energy to teleport and the man being winded fits the definition of what genki is, so a lack of that fits perfectly with why they felt the way they did.

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Re: Pure Boo > Evil Boo makes more narrative sense?

Post by ahill1 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:15 am

@Darkprince410

What do you think about the point that Goku, when saying they are no match for Super Boo like this, meant their size by "like this", rather than they unfused state?

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