"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:56 am

HeroR wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:30 am
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:29 am
HeroR wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:35 pm


Chapter 15:

Whis: Oh dear, this is not good at all for Beerus-sama! I had better wake him but... He might be particularly furious. And after all... So long as the Kaiôshin that Beerus-sama sealed is alive, all will be well! Ho Ho Ho (laughs)! Wow... Dai Kaiôshin-sama was just captured (absorbed) by the Majin... Beerus: Mnya Mnya... Dying Kaiôshin: Da... Dai Kaiôshin-sama has been... [We see Rou Kaiôshin in the seal.]


https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/4 ... ed_photos/
Do you have the actual scan where Whis says that, and where you can see Old Kaioshin in the seal as stated and the flashback to Majin Buu terrorizing the Kai’s?
I don't have the scan. Everything I know is in the link I placed.
That isn't something that actually happens in the chapter at all. Unfortunately that whole thing was a hoax.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:45 am

Well I was entertained by this chapter. Moro's characterisation has about as much profundity as a discarded old wash cloth but some of the characters involved like Buu and the prospect of seeing Moro with his full arsenal of magical abilities carries some prospective weight to itself. Who can say as to what will happen next since Goku and Vegeta are marooned on New Namek with no known way to escape from the planet at the moment. It's gruesome to see what's happening to the Namekians, even while it's being presented as something of a retread of Freeza's escapades, only with some magical backdrops to it instead of simply overpowering his opponents through henchmen using their fists. I would like to see where Buu fits into all this and whether Bulma's inquiry into the whole matter will have some kind of tangible impact or not. We'll just have to wait and see.

On the subject of Beerus's apathy to one of his universe's populations being exterminated, it does seem kind of bizarre to me that he would neglect the well-being of his universe when his own life was put in jeopardy in large part for the ineffectuality of its health and growth. You don't have to like the populations whom you're overseeing, just don't sit idly by while they're being systemically wiped out. It isn't going to do anything but portray you in an unfavourable light to your superiors. We don't have the excuse that he's hoping Shin, whose own reputation and job are on the line as well, will address the matter neither as he doesn't give any reference to his counterpart. Beerus is looking on almost as an encourager. I guess the takeaway from that scene is that his idleness supersedes any long-term perspective of his universe's ranking.

You have to wonder what might be going through Trunks's mind at the moment. His father has been absent under suspicious circumstances for a week now. We obviously know how Bulma and Mr Satan feel. Since the Galactic Patrol isn't willing to oblige them, what exactly are they supposed to do? Firing up the old space craft sounds like an idea, but it would take six days to reach New Namek -- assuming that the Briefs haven't improved on the technology or that New Namek's coordinates are any further isolated than the original Namek. Plus, who would go with them? Taking Trunks along could prove to be a meaningful character experience but we know what the likelihood of that is. No one else has the kind of power necessary to handle the crisis that they would expect to have incapacitated the two main Saiyans.

I did like the attention to detail with respect to some of the Namekian interactions. Vegeta's guilt inspired contrition and interest to reconcile himself with the Namekian people is a subplot that I continue to look forward to. One criticism that I do have to lodge against which others have put forth is the lack of reactive nuance to the Namekians' feedback towards the Saiyan Prince. Repentant or not, they are still meeting face to face with one of the murderers that butchered a part of their population and robbed them of their most treasured cultural item for his own selfish aims. Surely there would be at least some inkling of distrust or animosity for all that Vegeta's done. Would they react this way if Freeza suddenly showed up and was battling Moro instead of attacking them?

Does it feel like Toyotaro is teasing us with this abrupt dusting off of the Namekian assimilation concept? I think most of us would love to see Piccolo get some action here. What are the odds of that though? It's best to keep levelled expectations. Still, what could be the reason for bringing up assimilation again? It could have just been a tongue in cheek jab at those of us wanting to see Piccolo fight as a viable warrior once again. If so, it leaves a poor taste in the mouth. I think it was expected that Namekian assimilation amongst some low level warriors wasn't going to do much good against an opponent that absorbed virtually all of Goku and Vegeta's god level ki. You have to wonder how strong this new warrior became, though. The amount of warriors combined together may have exceeded 10, but their numbers aren't too great to begin with. Maybe they reached into the millions, power level wise? I doubt they even surpassed Piccolo after training for the cyborgs. At least the concept hasn't been forgotten though.

Speaking of Namekians, why didn't they enact this strategy back when Freeza was terrorising them? The obvious outside reasoning is that Toriyama may not have conceived of it at the time, but in-universe wise, we aren't given any kind of explanation. Also, it is nice to see some more of the Namekian powers. Dende apparently isn't the only one capable of using healing arts. You have to wonder just how many more Namekians are capable of using it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:54 am

Solid chapter, normal post-battle stuff going on.

I enjoyed the paneling and impact in this chapter. Disliked the Assimilation tactic, it added nothing to the story. It was Toyotarõ grabbing a popular fan idea and forcing it in.
Lionel wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:45 am
Speaking of Namekians, why didn't they enact this strategy back when Freeza was terrorising them?
Probably because Nail was the only Warrior they had. I assume now there were more.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TobyS » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:36 am

Is Nail the only warrior type tho?

Like I thought they referred to him as their one “true” warrior type. Meaning like he's the only one who's significantly strong.

Presumably all the farmer namekians are defacto warrior type by virtue of not being healer or dragon type namekians....
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:26 am

Yeah, this is probably the worst arc of the Super manga, including those short recap ones at the start. This chapter was slightly better than last month's, but it's still bad.

This is really the best part of it:

Image

I can't think of a more distinctly Dragonball image than a talking fish fishing for fish.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:34 am

This last chapter was fairly eh. Moro eating the Galick Gun was cool, but it was basically a filler chapter to me. Good to see Buu is awake.

My big problem: they have a ship, and only got to THREE VILLAGES in THREE DAYS? That doesn't even remotely make any sense. He should have been gathered all the dragon balls to make his wish. Makes absolutely no sense

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:37 am

HeroR wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:12 am

Except as Kanassa pointed out, this portrayal doesn't even match Manga Beerus. Like no matter the media, he still dealt with Zamasu despite it being a problem in another universe and timeline.

And I can't really agree that anime Goku is a bigger buffon than manga Goku. For one, Goku in the anime is shown to be a seasoned and experience martial artist who have outsmarted his opponent several times, while manga Goku since the Universal Survival Saga is more or less portrayal as dumb muscle. In fact, it's only really in the Future Trunks Saga that manga Goku comes out as smarter.
??? Isn't this the same Goku who kept spamming SSB at every single turn, who kept running out of stamina, and who thought it was a good idea to throw rocks at the enemy? Who got choked and tossed around by Berserker Kale like a ragdoll?

The only time he was canonically more seasoned than a fighter from what I can recall, and it was because Whis pointed it out as part of the narrative not because he showed it, was when he fought Caulifla the 2nd time around.

Anime ToP Goku is still the definition of dumb muscle, arguably more so since manga ToP Goku actually teamed up harmoniously with both Hit and Vegeta, the latter in which he was actually in perfect sync with.

And as Marlowe89 pointed out, manga Beerus only went after Zamasu because his life was directly in danger.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:58 am

TobyS wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:36 am
Is Nail the only warrior type tho?

Like I thought they referred to him as their one “true” warrior type. Meaning like he's the only one who's significantly strong.

Presumably all the farmer namekians are defacto warrior type by virtue of not being healer or dragon type namekians....
If the others weren't Warrior types then they were Dragon Clan. Nail is specifically said to be the only Warrior one.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:03 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:56 am
HeroR wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:30 am
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:29 am

Do you have the actual scan where Whis says that, and where you can see Old Kaioshin in the seal as stated and the flashback to Majin Buu terrorizing the Kai’s?
I don't have the scan. Everything I know is in the link I placed.
That isn't something that actually happens in the chapter at all. Unfortunately that whole thing was a hoax.
Didn't know that. Thanks for clearing that out.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:10 am

Rakurai wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:37 am
HeroR wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:12 am

Except as Kanassa pointed out, this portrayal doesn't even match Manga Beerus. Like no matter the media, he still dealt with Zamasu despite it being a problem in another universe and timeline.

And I can't really agree that anime Goku is a bigger buffon than manga Goku. For one, Goku in the anime is shown to be a seasoned and experience martial artist who have outsmarted his opponent several times, while manga Goku since the Universal Survival Saga is more or less portrayal as dumb muscle. In fact, it's only really in the Future Trunks Saga that manga Goku comes out as smarter.
??? Isn't this the same Goku who kept spamming SSB at every single turn, who kept running out of stamina, and who thought it was a good idea to throw rocks at the enemy? Who got choked and tossed around by Berserker Kale like a ragdoll?

The only time he was canonically more seasoned than a fighter from what I can recall, and it was because Whis pointed it out as part of the narrative not because he showed it, was when he fought Caulifla the 2nd time around.

Anime ToP Goku is still the definition of dumb muscle, arguably more so since manga ToP Goku actually teamed up harmoniously with both Hit and Vegeta, the latter in which he was actually in perfect sync with.

And as Marlowe89 pointed out, manga Beerus only went after Zamasu because his life was directly in danger.
He didn't spam Blue, he uses in short bursts to get stuff done. Remember, the average episode of the TOP lasted a minute. He also only started having stamina issue after Jiren beat him up in 110. Before then, he had no stamina issue. He also got rag doll as a Super Saiyan 2 and wasn't even hurt at the end of the whole thing. As for the rocks, that was Vegeta's idea.

We saw it when Goku sparred with Gohan in Epsoide 90 (https://youtu.be/pBATkV8kV2Q?t=62) and even his fight with the U9 dog when he pointed out the flaw of him growing so big by absorbing his energy (https://youtu.be/uwZUDu_sbzs?t=27). That and it's how he dealt with one of the madams from U2.
https://youtu.be/-_yNmOJpy94?t=89

Or his tag team fight with Cali and Kale in 114:
https://youtu.be/HauUCgQaDt0?t=829

Or how he nearly rung out Jiren in 123:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUN1_uNqHuY

Goku in the anime teamed up several times with people other than Vegeta such as 17, 18, and Frieza. Goku also teamed up with Hit in 114 and didn't back down unlike the manga. To name a few:

https://youtu.be/bwVkGKbzI9w?t=11
https://youtu.be/mMafWxhKiMc?t=145
https://youtu.be/rEUuaoo1fCk?t=32
https://youtu.be/zTqYiuwzICg?t=93

Saying that Goku was more dumb muscle than his manga counterpart is simply not true. In fact, your post reads like you haven't seen the TOP in the anime in awhile. Especially when he has more teamwork under him than manga Goku who only teamed up with Vegeta and Hit, when Goku worked with his entire team at several points.

Beerus wasn't in danger since Zamasu in the manga didn't kill Beerus, Dabura did that.
Last edited by HeroR on Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:38 am, edited 7 times in total.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Michsi » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:15 am

TobyS wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:36 am
Is Nail the only warrior type tho?

Like I thought they referred to him as their one “true” warrior type. Meaning like he's the only one who's significantly strong.

Presumably all the farmer namekians are defacto warrior type by virtue of not being healer or dragon type namekians....

As I recall, it's the other way around. The majority of Namekians are Dragon Clan, but only the most gifted are the ones that can perform magic, have healing abilities or create dragon balls.

I don't remember if Nail was stated to be the only Warrior type on Namek at the time though. Weren't there other Namkians that engaged Freeza's soldiers in battle and won easily until Dodoria stepped in?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:22 am

Michsi wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:15 am
I don't remember if Nail was stated to be the only Warrior type on Namek at the time though. Weren't there other Namkians that engaged Freeza's soldiers in battle and won easily until Dodoria stepped in?
Nail was indeed stated to be so. In the anime there's some filler with "Warrior Namekians" but that's filler.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Raimundo » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:33 am

HeroR wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:12 am
Rakurai wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:34 pm
I'm gonna have to agree with the notion that Beerus has always been a lazy fuck piece of GoD, consistent in portrayal throughout the manga. Trying to reconcile manga Beerus with his anime counterpart is like trying to reconcile manga Goku with anime Goku. Anime Goku is a bigger buffoon overall.

On the latest chapter, things have become more interesting action-wise but a little shock factor isn't going to gloss over Moro's portrayal throughout this arc so far. The way he enjoys killing is... randomly absurd. When Frieza did it, he was portrayed as a sadistic, tyrannical ruler from the start. When Moro does it, it feels just random. Does he enjoy killing, or does he want his old power restored? The latter has been made clear, but not the former. His personality, fixated on restoring his old power, just does not seem to exude that homicidal side. I don't see it. Moro has the potential to become an interesting character, but Toyotarou really needs to work on his characterization.

Though I really did like the last even where Moro just no-diffs the Namekian warrior after a bit of hype. That was pretty funny, reminded me of Aniraza only to get one-shot by Kale lol.

Except as Kanassa pointed out, this portrayal doesn't even match Manga Beerus. Like no matter the media, he still dealt with Zamasu despite it being a problem in another universe and timeline.

And I can't really agree that anime Goku is a bigger buffon than manga Goku. For one, Goku in the anime is shown to be a seasoned and experience martial artist who have outsmarted his opponent several times, while manga Goku since the Universal Survival Saga is more or less portrayal as dumb muscle. In fact, it's only really in the Future Trunks Saga that manga Goku comes out as smarter.
This is pretty accurate. Anime Goku does get portrayed more intelligently overall. Anime Goku is only really a button in the FT arc but that gets exaggerated to being like that for most of the show’s run.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Michsi » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:39 am

LightBing wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:22 am
Michsi wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:15 am
I don't remember if Nail was stated to be the only Warrior type on Namek at the time though. Weren't there other Namkians that engaged Freeza's soldiers in battle and won easily until Dodoria stepped in?
Nail was indeed stated to be so. In the anime there's some filler with "Warrior Namekians" but that's filler.

Yeah, I was trying really hard to recall if that scene was in the manga too and was drawing a blank so it had to be filler.

But then what about the two the Namekians the main guy fused with in this chapter? I assume those were Warrior types too. Guess after the Freeza fiasco Namekians decided they needed a few more Warriors. (not that it helped )

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:08 pm

Found the chapter fun. Maybe even more than last month's action-heavy one, despite some misgivings.

Art-wise, the paneling has indeed gotten better recently, though there's the usual lowering of heads when it becomes obvious there'd be no other way to get both head and body into Toyotaro's chosen framing (unfortunate), and one instance of the recurring issue of over in-betweening action, as the second Namekian is hurdled into the wall of fire near the end. There's an aerial shot of him flying toward it that absolutely isn't needed to convey the action, and conversely slows the moment and dulls the shock by its inclusion. (This has always been, and continues to be, a far greater issue than the over-inclusion of reaction shots people often point to when they talk about his over-paneling.)

My other misgiving is one of tone and presentation, as the pacing of the buildup to the Namekian "savior"'s death feels unusually cruel for Dragon Ball. It is amusing, in isolation, but it undercuts their tragedy with ironic humor. Dragon Ball under Toriyama always walks a fine line in which it never asks you to laugh directly at good characters' misfortune, and I think that sincerity is an important part of its success. There's horrific cruelty--far worse than this--visited on innocent characters multiple times in the original run--particularly in the Namek and Boo arcs--but the awfulness of that cruelty is always presented sincerely, and never comes from the presentation rather than the characters themselves. (The closest the original run ever comes might be Boo's destruction of a city after curing the blind boy, but even then, I think it's genuine in its portrayal of the horror of that moment, while simultaneously using it to build up the absurdity of its villain, which it does a lot through its run.)

It's an extremely subtle criticism, and not one I feel leaves a smear on the arc or Toyotaro's overall handling of the series, but the more I think about it, the more it doesn't sit well with me.

Despite most of this post being dedicated to the elements I didn't like, I really did enjoy it. I'm having fun following the story, especially now that it's introduced a little downtime and gone into some moderately unexpected directions. I like quite a few of the character beats here, including Mr. Satan asking about Boo's well-being, Bulma's recurring interest in at least getting to see would-be planet/universe-destroyers before biting it (and her assuming everyone else shares that trait), Jaco's gag about hitting call limits, and Moro being blunt but forgiving about Cranberry's transparent attempt to lie to him. They're all small, but come together to make an enjoyable chapter of Dragon Ball sequel--which this arc hasn't aimed or achieved beyond yet, but hasn't fallen under either.

EDIT-- I'm also a big fan of anything that has us dropping in on Beerus and the Oracle Fish in the middle of some weird, mostly unexplained activity. What fish were they looking for? Who knows?

And yes, three villages in three days is a little hard to swallow. You could say Moro's just enjoying taking things leisurely, but what exactly are they doing at night? They're on a planet with a single ship, no food, and practically no civilization around. Spending extra time there can't be very fun.
Last edited by Cipher on Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by dbgtFO » Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:39 pm

I could only laugh at Moro one-shotting the merged Namekian :lol:
At last Buu is finally awake, so it will be good to get him involved in the plot.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:49 pm

This reads like fanfiction.

When Toriyama writes Dragonball, he introduces a bunch of new shit, paying no reverence to the established lore. He, of course, tries to tie things in so that it makes sense, but he brings in new ideas.

This is all really self-referential stuff with nothing new. Remember Namek? Here it is again. Remember that Namek's can fuse? Here it is again. Remember the Galactic Patrol? Here they are! Remember the Daikaioshin? Here he is!

Callbacks aren't inherently bad, but this entire arc has just been all callbacks. You can smell the stink of a fan all over this.
Cipher wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:08 pm
My other misgiving is one of tone and presentation, as the pacing of the buildup to the Namekian "savior"'s death feels unusually cruel for Dragon Ball. It is amusing, in isolation, but it undercuts their tragedy with ironic humor. Dragon Ball under Toriyama always walks a fine line in which it never asks you to laugh directly at good characters' misfortune, I think that sincerity is an important part of its success. There's horrific cruelty--far worse than this--visited on innocent characters multiple times in the original run--particularly in the Namek and Boo arcs--but the awfulness of that cruelty is always presented sincerely, and never comes from the presentation rather than the characters themselves
I do not think this was meant to be funny. The story certainly doesn't present it this way. It was meant to be a simple hope spot. This namekian savior got built up, the reader was supposed to become invested and think they may stand a chance now, but then Moro backhands him to death. In theory, this crushes the reader's hope and makes the situation most dire for the cast.

That's the intention, but it may come off as funny in a vacuum. What I'm saying is I think you're wrong in saying this was a cruel joke, but I can understand why you'd think it was meant to be funny.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:56 pm

TKA wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:49 pm
This reads like fanfiction.

When Toriyama writes Dragonball, he introduces a bunch of new shit, paying no reverence to the established lore. He, of course, tries to tie things in so that it makes sense, but he brings in new ideas.

This is all really self-referential stuff with nothing new. Remember Namek? Here it is again. Remember that Namek's can fuse? Here it is again. Remember the Galactic Patrol? Here they are! Remember the Daikaioshin? Here he is!

Callbacks aren't inherently bad, but this entire arc has just been all callbacks. You can smell the stink of a fan all over this.
For what it's worth, I also think this absolutely all true.

EDIT--You may be right about the savior beat. It may have read differently to me had images of the final two pages not gone around as leaks two days ahead of the chapter, coloring my feelings on what it was doing with its buildup.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Monkey King » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:42 pm

Anyone else bored of seeing just Goku and Vegeta fighting?

Man I've really grown tired of them and their attacks, I hope Toyo has some other characters tag in
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Raimundo » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:49 pm

The Monkey King wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:42 pm
Anyone else bored of seeing just Goku and Vegeta fighting?

Man I've really grown tired of them and their attacks, I hope Toyo has some other characters tag in
DB as a whole nowadays I’m pretty bored wih just them. I also don’t care about the dynamic between the two either. I do enjoy watching Goku fight in the anime but not here. Though in general of Super anime and manga, I’ve been quite bored with just Goku and Vegeta. Each arc does usually present one character for me that I end up liking enough to where they hold my interest for the rest of it.

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