"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 2652
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:53 pm

TKA wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:49 pm
This reads like fanfiction.

When Toriyama writes Dragonball, he introduces a bunch of new shit, paying no reverence to the established lore. He, of course, tries to tie things in so that it makes sense, but he brings in new ideas.

This is all really self-referential stuff with nothing new. Remember Namek? Here it is again. Remember that Namek's can fuse? Here it is again. Remember the Galactic Patrol? Here they are! Remember the Daikaioshin? Here he is!

Callbacks aren't inherently bad, but this entire arc has just been all callbacks. You can smell the stink of a fan all over this.
So in other words...Toyotaro might actually have created this story instead of Toriyama.
It certainly looks and feels that way so far.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

User avatar
TheSaiyanGod
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1287
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:09 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:17 pm

HeroR wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:10 am
Rakurai wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:37 am
HeroR wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:12 am

Except as Kanassa pointed out, this portrayal doesn't even match Manga Beerus. Like no matter the media, he still dealt with Zamasu despite it being a problem in another universe and timeline.

And I can't really agree that anime Goku is a bigger buffon than manga Goku. For one, Goku in the anime is shown to be a seasoned and experience martial artist who have outsmarted his opponent several times, while manga Goku since the Universal Survival Saga is more or less portrayal as dumb muscle. In fact, it's only really in the Future Trunks Saga that manga Goku comes out as smarter.
??? Isn't this the same Goku who kept spamming SSB at every single turn, who kept running out of stamina, and who thought it was a good idea to throw rocks at the enemy? Who got choked and tossed around by Berserker Kale like a ragdoll?

The only time he was canonically more seasoned than a fighter from what I can recall, and it was because Whis pointed it out as part of the narrative not because he showed it, was when he fought Caulifla the 2nd time around.

Anime ToP Goku is still the definition of dumb muscle, arguably more so since manga ToP Goku actually teamed up harmoniously with both Hit and Vegeta, the latter in which he was actually in perfect sync with.

And as Marlowe89 pointed out, manga Beerus only went after Zamasu because his life was directly in danger.
He didn't spam Blue, he uses in short bursts to get stuff done. Remember, the average episode of the TOP lasted a minute. He also only started having stamina issue after Jiren beat him up in 110. Before then, he had no stamina issue. He also got rag doll as a Super Saiyan 2 and wasn't even hurt at the end of the whole thing. As for the rocks, that was Vegeta's idea.

We saw it when Goku sparred with Gohan in Epsoide 90 (https://youtu.be/pBATkV8kV2Q?t=62) and even his fight with the U9 dog when he pointed out the flaw of him growing so big by absorbing his energy (https://youtu.be/uwZUDu_sbzs?t=27). That and it's how he dealt with one of the madams from U2.
https://youtu.be/-_yNmOJpy94?t=89

Or his tag team fight with Cali and Kale in 114:
https://youtu.be/HauUCgQaDt0?t=829

Or how he nearly rung out Jiren in 123:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUN1_uNqHuY

Goku in the anime teamed up several times with people other than Vegeta such as 17, 18, and Frieza. Goku also teamed up with Hit in 114 and didn't back down unlike the manga. To name a few:

https://youtu.be/bwVkGKbzI9w?t=11
https://youtu.be/mMafWxhKiMc?t=145
https://youtu.be/rEUuaoo1fCk?t=32
https://youtu.be/zTqYiuwzICg?t=93

Saying that Goku was more dumb muscle than his manga counterpart is simply not true. In fact, your post reads like you haven't seen the TOP in the anime in awhile. Especially when he has more teamwork under him than manga Goku who only teamed up with Vegeta and Hit, when Goku worked with his entire team at several points.

Beerus wasn't in danger since Zamasu in the manga didn't kill Beerus, Dabura did that.
At the beginning of ToP, Whis made it clear that the SSB wastes a lot of energy, and Goku used this transformation at least 4 times before facing Jiren (and every time against weaker enemies). So he was not exactly thinking about saving energy (not counting every time he lowered his guard and was almost eliminated just because he was excited about some enemy).

Anyway, I think you guys are playing intelligence in Goku battles in the manga based only on a part of the ToP.

In the manga, he defeated Hitto's Time Skip and developed his own way of counterattacking the technique (without power ups like Kaioken) and in FT saga, he developed a unique way to dominate the SSB and face Merged Zamasu (without needing 1 year in RoSaT, as Vegeta did).

And about Beerus, he knew his life was at risk anyway, after all in the future he had died and could happen the same with him in the present, so he only interfered because he was in danger
Miracles wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:53 pm
TKA wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:49 pm
This reads like fanfiction.

When Toriyama writes Dragonball, he introduces a bunch of new shit, paying no reverence to the established lore. He, of course, tries to tie things in so that it makes sense, but he brings in new ideas.

This is all really self-referential stuff with nothing new. Remember Namek? Here it is again. Remember that Namek's can fuse? Here it is again. Remember the Galactic Patrol? Here they are! Remember the Daikaioshin? Here he is!

Callbacks aren't inherently bad, but this entire arc has just been all callbacks. You can smell the stink of a fan all over this.
So in other words...Toyotaro might actually have created this story instead of Toriyama.
It certainly looks and feels that way so far.
It's not as if all DB arcs were completely innovative. The various tournaments were not just new things, and Broly's film is a mix of all possible fanservices from the old TOEI films

User avatar
batistabus
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1581
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:55 pm
Location: Western Massachusetts

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:46 pm

TKA wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:49 pm
This reads like fanfiction.
I agree with this sentiment overall, but I hesitate to describe it as "fanfiction". That term carries a lot of other baggage that I don't think fits here, but there does seem to be an outright refusal to step outside of the established sandbox...at the moment, anyway.

More so than Cell, Moro seems to be a culmination of a bunch of threats that Goku & co. have already faced. He's ancient like Piccolo Diamo but much more so. He absorbs energy like No. 19 & 20 in a way that is more versatile and oppressive. He relentlessly kills those who stand in his way like Freeza but more dramatically. Etc. I think the sense of scale compared to these previous threats is certainly felt, but because everything feels a bit too familiar, the impact isn't proportionally scaled to match.

That aside, I don't really agree with the sentiment that this arc feels like a Toei film so far. Could someone who feels that way elaborate on that thought?

Overall, I found plenty to enjoy in this chapter. The action is great, but as I said in my previous post, that's not really what I'm looking for post-Broly. The gags and scenes that cut away from the action were a breath of fresh air. Can't wait for more Jaco/Bulma/Satan/Boo!!

When Goku and Vegeta were drained, I actually thought they might be dead. I was excited about that possibility, but alas...

As for the Namekian Savior, I really enjoyed that moment. I think it's a well implemented use of Toriyama's "betraying fan desires" method. I first heard of this concept through DB Multiverse, but apparently the idea is pretty common among fans. Admittedly, it's one that I thought was pretty cool, but not something that I realistically thought Toriyama would ever play straight. Here, I like that they're entertaining the idea, but only long enough to shut it down entirely. I thought the depiction of the mid-flight merging was well executed. This story beat was only funny to me in the way that it was so typically emblematic of Dragon Ball disappointment.
Last edited by batistabus on Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Hellspawn28
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 13936
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:50 pm
Location: Maryland, USA

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Hellspawn28 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:49 pm

How would you guys react if Goku & Vegeta go to U11 to get Jiren to help out against Moro?
PS4 username: Guyver_Spawn_27
MAL Profile: http://myanimelist.net/profile/Hellspawn28
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/GS27/

User avatar
Lionel
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1597
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:54 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:52 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:49 pm
How would you guys react if Goku & Vegeta go to U11 to get Jiren to help out against Moro?
Couldn't they just fuse together and have Gogeta annihilate Moro? Since Vegeta knows how to synchronise his ki with Goku's and perform the dance -- on top of being conveniently tall enough now to accommodate for his co-fusee -- they shouldn't need any outside help. When you think about it, they shouldn't even need fusion if they were being practical. Taiyoken and Kienzan are both known to Goku. Of course they hardly ever get used outside of Krillin.

User avatar
Xeztin
I Live Here
Posts: 2234
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:15 pm
Location: Toyotarō's Place

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeztin » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:27 pm

They have 3 choices in my opinion: Mafuba, Android 17 and 18 (limitless energy) to blow him up, or the Kaioshin sealing him again thats inside Boo. I don’t think anyones going to be fast enough to kill Moro, he’s technically on SSJB+ level now with his magic. Broly would get drained too... But I’m glad the Boo thing isn’t going away, also I think Boo will still be good since the evil was extracted in Z.

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7757
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:47 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:17 pm
HeroR wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:10 am
Rakurai wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:37 am


??? Isn't this the same Goku who kept spamming SSB at every single turn, who kept running out of stamina, and who thought it was a good idea to throw rocks at the enemy? Who got choked and tossed around by Berserker Kale like a ragdoll?

The only time he was canonically more seasoned than a fighter from what I can recall, and it was because Whis pointed it out as part of the narrative not because he showed it, was when he fought Caulifla the 2nd time around.

Anime ToP Goku is still the definition of dumb muscle, arguably more so since manga ToP Goku actually teamed up harmoniously with both Hit and Vegeta, the latter in which he was actually in perfect sync with.

And as Marlowe89 pointed out, manga Beerus only went after Zamasu because his life was directly in danger.
He didn't spam Blue, he uses in short bursts to get stuff done. Remember, the average episode of the TOP lasted a minute. He also only started having stamina issue after Jiren beat him up in 110. Before then, he had no stamina issue. He also got rag doll as a Super Saiyan 2 and wasn't even hurt at the end of the whole thing. As for the rocks, that was Vegeta's idea.

We saw it when Goku sparred with Gohan in Epsoide 90 (https://youtu.be/pBATkV8kV2Q?t=62) and even his fight with the U9 dog when he pointed out the flaw of him growing so big by absorbing his energy (https://youtu.be/uwZUDu_sbzs?t=27). That and it's how he dealt with one of the madams from U2.
https://youtu.be/-_yNmOJpy94?t=89

Or his tag team fight with Cali and Kale in 114:
https://youtu.be/HauUCgQaDt0?t=829

Or how he nearly rung out Jiren in 123:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUN1_uNqHuY

Goku in the anime teamed up several times with people other than Vegeta such as 17, 18, and Frieza. Goku also teamed up with Hit in 114 and didn't back down unlike the manga. To name a few:

https://youtu.be/bwVkGKbzI9w?t=11
https://youtu.be/mMafWxhKiMc?t=145
https://youtu.be/rEUuaoo1fCk?t=32
https://youtu.be/zTqYiuwzICg?t=93

Saying that Goku was more dumb muscle than his manga counterpart is simply not true. In fact, your post reads like you haven't seen the TOP in the anime in awhile. Especially when he has more teamwork under him than manga Goku who only teamed up with Vegeta and Hit, when Goku worked with his entire team at several points.

Beerus wasn't in danger since Zamasu in the manga didn't kill Beerus, Dabura did that.
At the beginning of ToP, Whis made it clear that the SSB wastes a lot of energy, and Goku used this transformation at least 4 times before facing Jiren (and every time against weaker enemies). So he was not exactly thinking about saving energy (not counting every time he lowered his guard and was almost eliminated just because he was excited about some enemy).

Anyway, I think you guys are playing intelligence in Goku battles in the manga based only on a part of the ToP.

In the manga, he defeated Hitto's Time Skip and developed his own way of counterattacking the technique (without power ups like Kaioken) and in FT saga, he developed a unique way to dominate the SSB and face Merged Zamasu (without needing 1 year in RoSaT, as Vegeta did).

And about Beerus, he knew his life was at risk anyway, after all in the future he had died and could happen the same with him in the present, so he only interfered because he was in danger
Miracles wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:53 pm
TKA wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:49 pm
This reads like fanfiction.

When Toriyama writes Dragonball, he introduces a bunch of new shit, paying no reverence to the established lore. He, of course, tries to tie things in so that it makes sense, but he brings in new ideas.

This is all really self-referential stuff with nothing new. Remember Namek? Here it is again. Remember that Namek's can fuse? Here it is again. Remember the Galactic Patrol? Here they are! Remember the Daikaioshin? Here he is!

Callbacks aren't inherently bad, but this entire arc has just been all callbacks. You can smell the stink of a fan all over this.
So in other words...Toyotaro might actually have created this story instead of Toriyama.
It certainly looks and feels that way so far.
It's not as if all DB arcs were completely innovative. The various tournaments were not just new things, and Broly's film is a mix of all possible fanservices from the old TOEI films
He explained why Goku just doesn't used Blue to railroad everyone from the start. It drains, but Goku still used the form in short bursts that doesn't even last a minute. It's no different than how Goku used his Kaioken on Namek. And one of the times he used it was because he needed to rush to a dying Roshi and the other time was Kale who tanked attacks from Super Saiyan 2.

Goku was beating Hit in the anime too without powering up. He only did it because Hit himself suddenly became stronger, unlike manga Hit who actually was so rusty he could only used his full power for a short time period. That and Goku fought a stronger and more skilled Hit in a rematch without using Blue Kaioken. Also, Vegeta was in the Time Chamber for six months, not a year.

Also, if you read my original post on this matter, I said that manga Goku only became dumb muscle from the TOP onwards. Before than, Goku was a smart fighter, but then his IQ suddenly got lowered.

He died in the future because of Dabura, who was long dead in the current timeline. So him dealing with Zamasu had nothing to do with him preserving his own life. Especially when the Beerus who died wasn't him, but his future counterpart.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

User avatar
Saiga
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8280
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:36 pm
Location: Space Australia

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Saiga » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:06 am

Hit specifically doesn't become stronger in the anime. His 'growth' was just improving the amount of seconds his time skip lasted for
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!

User avatar
Liquir
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:27 pm
Location: Dystopia

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Liquir » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:24 am

I'm wondering what the remaining Magic abilities are, that Moro wishes to be returned to him via the Dragon Balls. Before I thought he might receive some other abilities beside the Manipulation and absorption of energy, but after the talk with Vegeta where he states that with his full magical abilities and absorption of an entire planet is a quick meal, but now at his current level is out of reach, I'm starting to believe it might be the same abilities he has now, just on a higher level, like faster absorption and manipulation of energy and bigger -absorbing an entire planet at once, as he portrayed previously in the flashback, or absorbing multiple planets at once...

User avatar
Marlowe89
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 1926
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:30 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:42 am

What I liked:

The whole scene with Beerus, Whis and the Oracle Fish is great. Fun little gags, good characterization that plays into their involvement (or lack thereof) in the story, and a nice cutaway from the action helps balance out the rather grim predicament our heroes are currently facing while reminding the reader that while these characters still exist, they aren't necessarily going to feel as invested in stopping Moro themselves. It's short, sweet and to the point.

I enjoyed the Namekian savior's role here. It didn't strike me as a callback to previous moments/mechanisms in the series so much as an affirmation that Toyotaro is covering his bases: Namekians are fully aware they can merge, so it makes sense that they would resort to that tactic. Although I can't say the red herring at the end was nearly as well-utilized as those employed in the original manga, it nonetheless cements Moro as a force to be reckoned with arguably better than his first appearance.

What I didn't like:

Mostly everything else. The pacing picked up in the sense that more things are happening on paper, but those things aren't substantial. Moro's techniques are still boring because they revolve around the same basic ability and haven't established an interesting dilemma for Goku and Vegeta aside from having their energy sapped, which feels cliche at this point. The arc is still sorely lacking on all thematic fronts, too.

Overall:

It's better than the previous chapter, but that's hardly an accomplishment since the previous chapter is probably the worst one in the entire manga. The story's premise is still devoid of any substance, and that's unfortunate.

I respect Toyotaro's skills as a writer enough to keep reading to the end, but my expectations have dropped considerably these past few months.

reecehoward
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 182
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:52 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:45 am

I've waited for months to give an opinion on this arc, just to see where it was going...Gotta say, so far I'm having a hard time to get into it. The premise is ok for the most part aside from a few nitpicks and contrivances, but Moro has to be the blandest attempt at an antagonist. So far, he's just evil for the sake of being so and all he's done is steal energy, try to restore his power and brutalized his opponents(things we've seen several times in the series). His recycled abilities would not bother me if it weren't for his piss poor design. He looks like a dirty old goat rather than this threatening Baphomet type of demon he seems to be.

We just came off of the hype of Broly, i just have higher expectations for the future of the series and where they can go with it. How did we end up back on Namek looking for Dragonballs?

Michsi
I Live Here
Posts: 4361
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:10 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Michsi » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:40 am

I've seen this criticism regarding Moro as a villain and that he is the uninspired evil-for-the-sake-of-evil archetype come up a lot.

I get it, but on the other hand, in his specific case there's really no need for an explanation or backstory for why he is the way he is. The nature of his abilities alone could be seen as the reason for him developing a sadistic personality since it requires him to steal life force from other living creatures. The source of his power is literally tied to hurting others .

User avatar
emperior
I Live Here
Posts: 3582
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:52 pm
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:59 am

TKA wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:49 pm
This reads like fanfiction.

When Toriyama writes Dragonball, he introduces a bunch of new shit, paying no reverence to the established lore. He, of course, tries to tie things in so that it makes sense, but he brings in new ideas.

This is all really self-referential stuff with nothing new. Remember Namek? Here it is again. Remember that Namek's can fuse? Here it is again. Remember the Galactic Patrol? Here they are! Remember the Daikaioshin? Here he is!

Callbacks aren't inherently bad, but this entire arc has just been all callbacks. You can smell the stink of a fan all over this.
I have to agree with this. I am still interested in this arc, as I think it has potential to be good, and I would want to wait until it’s over to fully judge it as a whole, but so far it’s feeling like a filler arc, and as you said it’s very fan-ficky.
The slow pace also doesn’t help. The last two chapters could have easily been crammed into one. And the Namekian fusion was useless: we already knew that Moro is incredibly powerful and is now even stronger, and we have no idea how strong that Namekian was, thus it was an useless scene.
Now, if Piccolo could somehow come back and assimilate that guy, I wouldn’t mind it. Surely it would be fanservice to hand out a power-up to Piccolo like that but I wouldn’t be against it.

But apart from callbacks, which I don’t really mind in how they have been used so far (ex. Namek actually makes sense, because Moro wanting to wish himself younger makes sense) what I am disliking the most so far is how Toyotaro is handling Goku: he’s useless. Everything he’s done so far is teleporting to Namek. That’s all. He almost has no dialogue, no meaningful interactions... nothing. It’s like the main character is Vegeta, and so far it’s like Goku has been reduced to his sidekick. I would rather see Toyotaro bench out Goku from the story for a while, as Toriyama did quite a few times in his manga, than reduce him to a mere spectator.

And this is a complain I have in general. The duo has gotten boring. Maybe it’s just me, but my interest in them has peaked with Broly’s movie (and, in the manga, when they teamed up against Jiren). Everything that I wanted to see out of the duo has already happened. They have decided to team-up and even fuse together (twice) to fight opponents much stronger than they are, and it was something built up ever since Resurrection F. And in Broly, they finally succeeded.
What I consider the Dragon Ball canon

Favorite Dragon Ball Arcs

User avatar
batistabus
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1581
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:55 pm
Location: Western Massachusetts

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:51 am

It may be possible that my feelings on the current arc are largely affected by a lack of anime to temper my expectations. In the past, a significant portion of my enjoyment of Super was to see just how much less the manga was butchering things compared to the anime. Now, that sort of thing isn't influencing the way I consume the story. I'll have to think about that a bit more...

Michsi
I Live Here
Posts: 4361
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:10 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Michsi » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:52 am

emperior wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:59 am

Now, if Piccolo could somehow come back and assimilate that guy, I wouldn’t mind it. Surely it would be fanservice to hand out a power-up to Piccolo like that but I wouldn’t be against it.

I feel like the biggest hypocrite for this, but I really hope they don't go down this road. I really, really hope Piccolo will get a power-up at some point, but please, not like this. We are in desperate need of some originality. This is why people like UI .

Speaking of which, the bit with Bulma might lead to her taking a spaceship to look for Goku and Vegeta so maybe she'll decide to take the others for a ride.

Raimundo
Newbie
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:16 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Raimundo » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:07 pm

emperior wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:59 am
TKA wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:49 pm
This reads like fanfiction.

When Toriyama writes Dragonball, he introduces a bunch of new shit, paying no reverence to the established lore. He, of course, tries to tie things in so that it makes sense, but he brings in new ideas.

This is all really self-referential stuff with nothing new. Remember Namek? Here it is again. Remember that Namek's can fuse? Here it is again. Remember the Galactic Patrol? Here they are! Remember the Daikaioshin? Here he is!

Callbacks aren't inherently bad, but this entire arc has just been all callbacks. You can smell the stink of a fan all over this.
I have to agree with this. I am still interested in this arc, as I think it has potential to be good, and I would want to wait until it’s over to fully judge it as a whole, but so far it’s feeling like a filler arc, and as you said it’s very fan-ficky.
The slow pace also doesn’t help. The last two chapters could have easily been crammed into one. And the Namekian fusion was useless: we already knew that Moro is incredibly powerful and is now even stronger, and we have no idea how strong that Namekian was, thus it was an useless scene.
Now, if Piccolo could somehow come back and assimilate that guy, I wouldn’t mind it. Surely it would be fanservice to hand out a power-up to Piccolo like that but I wouldn’t be against it.

But apart from callbacks, which I don’t really mind in how they have been used so far (ex. Namek actually makes sense, because Moro wanting to wish himself younger makes sense) what I am disliking the most so far is how Toyotaro is handling Goku: he’s useless. Everything he’s done so far is teleporting to Namek. That’s all. He almost has no dialogue, no meaningful interactions... nothing. It’s like the main character is Vegeta, and so far it’s like Goku has been reduced to his sidekick. I would rather see Toyotaro bench out Goku from the story for a while, as Toriyama did quite a few times in his manga, than reduce him to a mere spectator.

And this is a complain I have in general. The duo has gotten boring. Maybe it’s just me, but my interest in them has peaked with Broly’s movie (and, in the manga, when they teamed up against Jiren). Everything that I wanted to see out of the duo has already happened. They have decided to team-up and even fuse together (twice) to fight opponents much stronger than they are, and it was something built up ever since Resurrection F. And in Broly, they finally succeeded.
Kinda agree with all of his tbh. The Goku thing is interesting as I didn’t really think about that before but he somewhat feels like an afterthought thinking about it now. I’d feel more strongly though personally if I cared more about manga Goku

User avatar
goku the krump dancer
I Live Here
Posts: 2875
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by goku the krump dancer » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:41 pm

Maybe I'm just easy to please but I'm really liking this arc so far. Getting small King Piccolo vibes but thats niether here nor there. Curious to see where this goes!
It's not too late. One day, it will be.

User avatar
Chuquita
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 15035
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:16 am
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Chuquita » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:46 pm

Raimundo wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:07 pm
emperior wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:59 am
TKA wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:49 pm
This reads like fanfiction.

When Toriyama writes Dragonball, he introduces a bunch of new shit, paying no reverence to the established lore. He, of course, tries to tie things in so that it makes sense, but he brings in new ideas.

This is all really self-referential stuff with nothing new. Remember Namek? Here it is again. Remember that Namek's can fuse? Here it is again. Remember the Galactic Patrol? Here they are! Remember the Daikaioshin? Here he is!

Callbacks aren't inherently bad, but this entire arc has just been all callbacks. You can smell the stink of a fan all over this.
I have to agree with this. I am still interested in this arc, as I think it has potential to be good, and I would want to wait until it’s over to fully judge it as a whole, but so far it’s feeling like a filler arc, and as you said it’s very fan-ficky.
The slow pace also doesn’t help. The last two chapters could have easily been crammed into one. And the Namekian fusion was useless: we already knew that Moro is incredibly powerful and is now even stronger, and we have no idea how strong that Namekian was, thus it was an useless scene.
Now, if Piccolo could somehow come back and assimilate that guy, I wouldn’t mind it. Surely it would be fanservice to hand out a power-up to Piccolo like that but I wouldn’t be against it.

But apart from callbacks, which I don’t really mind in how they have been used so far (ex. Namek actually makes sense, because Moro wanting to wish himself younger makes sense) what I am disliking the most so far is how Toyotaro is handling Goku: he’s useless. Everything he’s done so far is teleporting to Namek. That’s all. He almost has no dialogue, no meaningful interactions... nothing. It’s like the main character is Vegeta, and so far it’s like Goku has been reduced to his sidekick. I would rather see Toyotaro bench out Goku from the story for a while, as Toriyama did quite a few times in his manga, than reduce him to a mere spectator.

And this is a complain I have in general. The duo has gotten boring. Maybe it’s just me, but my interest in them has peaked with Broly’s movie (and, in the manga, when they teamed up against Jiren). Everything that I wanted to see out of the duo has already happened. They have decided to team-up and even fuse together (twice) to fight opponents much stronger than they are, and it was something built up ever since Resurrection F. And in Broly, they finally succeeded.
Kinda agree with all of his tbh. The Goku thing is interesting as I didn’t really think about that before but he somewhat feels like an afterthought thinking about it now. I’d feel more strongly though personally if I cared more about manga Goku
I hadn't even realized that was going on, but now that I read this it explains part of why I haven't been enjoying this arc much despite Goku being in it. Current manga Vegeta is just not as fun of a main character, imo.
My deviantart * My tumblr * My twitter
---
フレフレ みんあ! フレフレ 私!

User avatar
Rakurai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1057
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:48 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:14 pm

HeroR wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:10 am

He didn't spam Blue, he uses in short bursts to get stuff done. Remember, the average episode of the TOP lasted a minute. He also only started having stamina issue after Jiren beat him up in 110. Before then, he had no stamina issue. He also got rag doll as a Super Saiyan 2 and wasn't even hurt at the end of the whole thing. As for the rocks, that was Vegeta's idea.

We saw it when Goku sparred with Gohan in Epsoide 90 (https://youtu.be/pBATkV8kV2Q?t=62) and even his fight with the U9 dog when he pointed out the flaw of him growing so big by absorbing his energy (https://youtu.be/uwZUDu_sbzs?t=27). That and it's how he dealt with one of the madams from U2.
https://youtu.be/-_yNmOJpy94?t=89

Or his tag team fight with Cali and Kale in 114:
https://youtu.be/HauUCgQaDt0?t=829

Or how he nearly rung out Jiren in 123:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUN1_uNqHuY

Goku in the anime teamed up several times with people other than Vegeta such as 17, 18, and Frieza. Goku also teamed up with Hit in 114 and didn't back down unlike the manga. To name a few:

https://youtu.be/bwVkGKbzI9w?t=11
https://youtu.be/mMafWxhKiMc?t=145
https://youtu.be/rEUuaoo1fCk?t=32
https://youtu.be/zTqYiuwzICg?t=93

Saying that Goku was more dumb muscle than his manga counterpart is simply not true. In fact, your post reads like you haven't seen the TOP in the anime in awhile. Especially when he has more teamwork under him than manga Goku who only teamed up with Vegeta and Hit, when Goku worked with his entire team at several points.

Beerus wasn't in danger since Zamasu in the manga didn't kill Beerus, Dabura did that.
Whis literally told us that SSB heavily drains stamina after Shin wondering why they weren't going Blue. And he still used it a whole bunch of times going against Whis' suggestive narrative. Nowhere in the narrative did it imply Goku was using it in "short bursts" to conserve stamina. It felt more like a choice by the writer of the episode.

He didn't team up with Hit. They took on individual Pride Troopers and Hit didn't even want to team up with him. In fact, Hit took his main opponent Dyspo. Goku showed no brilliant strategy when he just literally ran through those Pride Trooper bombs using SSB. But he did use that SSG-SSB switcheroo which did show some strategy on his part. Although that was taken from the manga itself.

There was no teaming up against the male U2 warriors. They all fought individual opponents.

I did mention Caulifla, and also meant by extension Kale too.

Fair enough, I forgot about the finale with the coordination between him, 17, and Frieza. But anything with Vegeta doesn't count as Whis said they were so out of sync that not even Jiren could predict them. That's not strategy on his part.

Of course Beerus was in danger. Beerus knew from FTrunks that Black was privy to the life-death bond between a Kaioshin and a GoD. He asked Shin about it, Shin led him to Zamasu. Beerus was only acting for his own self-preservation, not for the sake of doing his job properly. He doesn't meddle otherwise. Nothing has changed.

User avatar
Rakurai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1057
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:48 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:15 pm

TKA wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:49 pm
This reads like fanfiction.

When Toriyama writes Dragonball, he introduces a bunch of new shit, paying no reverence to the established lore. He, of course, tries to tie things in so that it makes sense, but he brings in new ideas.

This is all really self-referential stuff with nothing new. Remember Namek? Here it is again. Remember that Namek's can fuse? Here it is again. Remember the Galactic Patrol? Here they are! Remember the Daikaioshin? Here he is!

Callbacks aren't inherently bad, but this entire arc has just been all callbacks. You can smell the stink of a fan all over this.
Cipher wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:08 pm
My other misgiving is one of tone and presentation, as the pacing of the buildup to the Namekian "savior"'s death feels unusually cruel for Dragon Ball. It is amusing, in isolation, but it undercuts their tragedy with ironic humor. Dragon Ball under Toriyama always walks a fine line in which it never asks you to laugh directly at good characters' misfortune, I think that sincerity is an important part of its success. There's horrific cruelty--far worse than this--visited on innocent characters multiple times in the original run--particularly in the Namek and Boo arcs--but the awfulness of that cruelty is always presented sincerely, and never comes from the presentation rather than the characters themselves
I do not think this was meant to be funny. The story certainly doesn't present it this way. It was meant to be a simple hope spot. This namekian savior got built up, the reader was supposed to become invested and think they may stand a chance now, but then Moro backhands him to death. In theory, this crushes the reader's hope and makes the situation most dire for the cast.

That's the intention, but it may come off as funny in a vacuum. What I'm saying is I think you're wrong in saying this was a cruel joke, but I can understand why you'd think it was meant to be funny.
So if Toyotarou creates something new, it's often labeled as fanfiction. When he uses several elements of the universe in which he is writing, it's still labeled as fanfiction.

If Toyotarou were to make UI Vegeta battle against an Ultimate giant form Moro while Goku was off learning SSB-UI in a ki-sensitive planet with Whis, it would likely be labeled as fanfiction.

I just don't know what your expectations are anymore. Combining previous elements that were hardly explored in the story should not mean it is "fanfiction."

Post Reply