Was Vegetto's Fusion Boost Weaker The Second Time Around?

[theherodjl]

It really seems like the power up between both of Vegetto's appearances is not the same in proportion.
The first time Goku & Vegeta fused with the Potara, it resulted in a truly OP fighter if we include anime filler. Base Vegetto was stronger than Boohan who himself was leaps and bounds more powerful than SSJ3 Goku & SSJ2 Vegeta, the duo being unable to defeat ordinary Super Boo let alone Boohan. If we apply some basic numbers to them then it might look something like this.

SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta: 10
SSJ3 Goku: 40
Super Boo: 120
Boohan: 320
Base Vegetto: 400
Vegetto is around 4,000 times stronger than Goku & Vegeta individually by these numbers.

As for the second time, Vegetto's strength isn't quite so absurd. Rather than fight in any form before it, Vegetto went right for SSJB, implying that it was required, and had a noticeable advantage over Merged Zamasu. Additionally, Goku by himself managed to break from Merged Zamasu's clutches with a Kaio-ken x20 so we have a slight idea as to where Goku & Vegeta as individuals stand. The numbers might look like this.

SSJB Goku/Vegeta: 10
Merged Zamasu: 200
Vegetto Blue: 300
According to these figures, Vegetto is around 30 times stronger than Goku & Vegeta as individuals which is a significant drop compared to the last time they fused.

Does God Ki affect the Potara fusion in anyway or have Goku & Vegeta simply brought out enough of their dormant power themselves without the Potara needing to do it?

[ankokudaishogun]

We don't know the entity of Goku's Kaiohken.
He was still unable to control it well without messing up his Ki else he would have used it earlier and more.

This implies it can't be higher than x10 at best.

[SupremeKai25]

As for the second time, Vegetto's strength isn't quite so absurd. Rather than fight in any form before it, Vegetto went right for SSJB, implying that it was required, and had a noticeable advantage over Merged Zamasu. Additionally, Goku by himself managed to break from Merged Zamasu's clutches with a Kaio-ken x20 so we have a slight idea as to where Goku & Vegeta as individuals stand. The numbers might look like this.

To be fair, Vegetto's advantage over Fused Zamasu became apparent only after Zamasu grew larger and slower. Before that, Zamasu put up a very good fight and even managed at one point to overpower Vegetto.

Also, regarding Goku freeing himself from Fused Zamasu's clutches with the Kaio-ken, if we want to be fair here, Zamasu wasn't expecting Goku to use that technique. I'd say that Goku freed himself not because of his strength but because of Fused Zamasu's shock. I mean, he did just get half of his face blown away.

[ruler9871]

You are making a massive oversight.

Merged Zamasu was not at full power when he fought KKx10 Goku. It was only after Merged Zamasu hit himself with the Lightning of Absolution and gained the purple arm is when he went full power. That's also the point when Goku decided that fusion was needed to beat him.

There was no nerf to the fusion boost.

[TobyS]

You also make the mistake of saying "if we include anime filler"

well y'know don't do that.

His Boost is/can be smaller in the manga. Which makes his boost not any weaker the second time, or at least less weak.

If anything Broly shows us it's stronger.

Assuming it was Toei being idiots Gogetas base is strong enough to survive a broly who can knock around unfused Blues.

Blue VS base is a massive multiplier. Yet Veggetto was implicitly said to not be enough to beat Beerus.
The assumption is among some fans that Base fusion is as strong as the strongest form of the unfused, in this case Blue.

So Gogeta (Broly) got a higher boost then Veggetto (Buu)
Veggetto (Super) fusees also had blue so the same should hold true.

Plus you have the whole variable of Zamasu being unkillable making his showing look better, he could be getting one shot with every blow but recovering instantly. It's impossible to gauge.

[IgnorantFuniFan]

I've always thought about this, whether there was a nerf or not. The elder kaioshin mentioned a rival boost, so perhaps goku and vegeta are closer to comrads than rivals now. I remember how angry with each other goku and vegeta were with each other when they first used the potara (vegeta furious with goku for holding back in their fight and goku with vegeta for being difficult and stubborn) which could have magically made the subsequent fusion super powerful compared to its later version. This is only a theory and its probably bullcrap but it's my headcannon.

[ruler9871]

I've always thought about this, whether there was a nerf or not. The elder kaioshin mentioned a rival boost, so perhaps goku and vegeta are closer to comrads than rivals now. I remember how angry with each other goku and vegeta were with each other when they first used the potara (vegeta furious with goku for holding back in their fight and goku with vegeta for being difficult and stubborn) which could have magically made the subsequent fusion super powerful compared to its later version. This is only a theory and its probably bullcrap but it's my headcannon.

"Rivals" doesn't necessarily mean enemies. Kefla got a rival boost too, even though Caulifla & Kale are complete loyal to each other. And there's no evidence of a nerf when you remember how strong Merged Zamasu got in the anime with his purple arm.

[PFM18]

For whatever reason, it certainly doesn't appear that the power MZ was at against Goku, Vegeta and Trunks is the same of that against Vegetto. The "corrupted" version of Zamasu was dramatically stronger whether that because his impurity made him way stronger, or he was suppressed, it doesn't really matter. The idea that fusion was necessary didn't come until this point I believe, and I don't recall them doing anything to the "Corrupted" version of Zamasu.

Also, Vegetto does a visible power-up at the end of the fight against MZ and proceeds to beat the shit out him, so they really aren't that close.

[SupremeKai25]

Also, Vegetto does a visible power-up at the end of the fight against MZ and proceeds to beat the shit out him, so they really aren't that close.

He beat the shit out of him only after Fused Zamasu increased his size to the point that he became way too slow. Before that, the two of them were evenly matched, Fused Zamasu at one point even managed to overpower Vegito.

[ankokudaishogun]

Kefla got a rival boost too, even though Caulifla & Kale are complete loyal to each other.

Then it was a boost but not a Rival one.

[PFM18]

Also, Vegetto does a visible power-up at the end of the fight against MZ and proceeds to beat the shit out him, so they really aren't that close.

He beat the shit out of him only after Fused Zamasu increased his size to the point that he became way too slow. Before that, the two of them were evenly matched, Fused Zamasu at one point even managed to overpower Vegito.

What makes you think Merged Zamasu's smaller size would have changed anything? Vegetto had a visible power-up during Zamasu's time as a giant. They may have been evenly matched before, but that means nothing since Vegetto wasn't using his full-power.

[SupremeKai25]

What makes you think Merged Zamasu's smaller size would have changed anything?

The fact that Fused Zamasu became much bigger means that he moved much slower, as Vegito himself aknowledged when he remarked that Fused Zamasu's body, so seeped in rage, couldn't keep up with his speed. I am not saying that Fused Zamasu would have been able to overpower Vegito again if he never increased his own size, I am saying that he would have put up a more decent fight.

And before that Fused Zamasu wasn't using his full power either, he also powered up when he increased his size. The problem wasn't that he lacked strength, the problem was that he was too big and couldn't hit his much faster and nimble enemy.

In addition, when Gowasu and Shin were talking about Fused Zamasu's body falling apart, Vegito and Fused Zamasu (after he already increased in size) could be seen fighting evenly.

[p-hyvo]

It really seems like the power up between both of Vegetto's appearances is not the same in proportion.
The first time Goku & Vegeta fused with the Potara, it resulted in a truly OP fighter if we include anime filler. Base Vegetto was stronger than Boohan who himself was leaps and bounds more powerful than SSJ3 Goku & SSJ2 Vegeta, the duo being unable to defeat ordinary Super Boo let alone Boohan. If we apply some basic numbers to them then it might look something like this.

SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta: 10
SSJ3 Goku: 40
Super Boo: 120
Boohan: 320
Base Vegetto: 400
Vegetto is around 4,000 times stronger than Goku & Vegeta individually by these numbers.

As for the second time, Vegetto's strength isn't quite so absurd. Rather than fight in any form before it, Vegetto went right for SSJB, implying that it was required, and had a noticeable advantage over Merged Zamasu. Additionally, Goku by himself managed to break from Merged Zamasu's clutches with a Kaio-ken x20 so we have a slight idea as to where Goku & Vegeta as individuals stand. The numbers might look like this.

SSJB Goku/Vegeta: 10
Merged Zamasu: 200
Vegetto Blue: 300
According to these figures, Vegetto is around 30 times stronger than Goku & Vegeta as individuals which is a significant drop compared to the last time they fused.

Does God Ki affect the Potara fusion in anyway or have Goku & Vegeta simply brought out enough of their dormant power themselves without the Potara needing to do it?

That seems like random no sense given number to me.
Super buu is much more than x3 ssj3 Goku, and merged zamasu, taking in a count the manga, is x10 ssbs.
Considering the anime, we can perfectly calculate vegetto (ft arc) like vados tells us during the top, so sum of fighters x20-190. (Considering numbers between 100 and 190 as tens, because they really aren't hundreds)
Anyway, that would mean the fusion in fact got significantly weaker, thing recommend in his entirety in the Broly movie, where is clearly shown that base fusion >ssb

[theherodjl]

That seems like random no sense given number to me.
Super buu is much more than x3 ssj3 Goku, and merged zamasu, taking in a count the manga, is x10 ssbs.
Considering the anime, we can perfectly calculate vegetto (ft arc) like vados tells us during the top, so sum of fighters x20-190. (Considering numbers between 100 and 190 as tens, because they really aren't hundreds)
Anyway, that would mean the fusion in fact got significantly weaker, thing recommend in his entirety in the Broly movie, where is clearly shown that base fusion >ssb

Super Boo being 3x SSJ3 Goku is actually a fair figure, its stronger than SSJ3 Goku & a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegeta combined but still low enough to be one shotted by their fusion. If you go by the logic that SSJ Gotenks = SSJ3 Goku then Super Boo would be 6-7x stronger than Goku but it is never confirmed if SSJ Gotenks ever achieved SSJ3 Goku's level of strength.

[p-hyvo]

That seems like random no sense given number to me.
Super buu is much more than x3 ssj3 Goku, and merged zamasu, taking in a count the manga, is x10 ssbs.
Considering the anime, we can perfectly calculate vegetto (ft arc) like vados tells us during the top, so sum of fighters x20-190. (Considering numbers between 100 and 190 as tens, because they really aren't hundreds)
Anyway, that would mean the fusion in fact got significantly weaker, thing recommend in his entirety in the Broly movie, where is clearly shown that base fusion >ssb

Super Boo being 3x SSJ3 Goku is actually a fair figure, its stronger than SSJ3 Goku & a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegeta combined but still low enough to be one shotted by their fusion. If you go by the logic that SSJ Gotenks = SSJ3 Goku then Super Boo would be 6-7x stronger than Goku but it is never confirmed if SSJ Gotenks ever achieved SSJ3 Goku's level of strength.

No, it really isn't.
The manga itself implies that the difference is much bigger, starting from the point that it's implies that ssj totem is (pre rosat training) is stronger than ssj3 Goku, based on everyone relying more on goten is than on goku to beat fat buu.
By that, super buu/ssj3 gotenks are easily 20x ssj3 Goku, with base vegetto being x50 ssj3 Goku more or less

[Cursed Lemon]

The Vegetto/Zamasu fight is probably second to Buu/Gotenks in terms of "this battle doesn't tell us jack shit about fuck". Vegetto fucked around again and didn't really give us a good demonstration of his true fighting strength.

[theherodjl]

No, it really isn't.
The manga itself implies that the difference is much bigger, starting from the point that it's implies that ssj totem is (pre rosat training) is stronger than ssj3 Goku, based on everyone relying more on goten is than on goku to beat fat buu.
By that, super buu/ssj3 gotenks are easily 20x ssj3 Goku, with base vegetto being x50 ssj3 Goku more or less

Yes it really is.
At no point was Gotenks "implied" to have surpassed SSJ3 Goku until he achieved SSJ3 himself. Additionally, Goku never actually used his full SSJ3 power until the fight with Pure Boo so whatever degree that anyone guessed his power seemed to be prior to that fight was a premature conclusion. Going by a filler scene, SSJ Goku was a great deal stronger than Post-ROSAT Base Gotenks(who was stated to have powered up "a lot" from his pre-ROSAT self)with Gotenks not even making an effort to go SSJ against Goku as if that option was futile.
Super Boo being x3 of SSJ3 Goku works just fine. The notion of Base/SSJ/SSJ2 Gotenks being a stronger fighter than SSJ3 Goku is pure hype over fusion's capabilities.