Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

Goku knows about Beerus' full power. It isn't a secret. Otherwise none of the characters would be able to speak on his power but they do. Goku and Vegeta took Beerus' unrestrained attacks. And they saw Beerus and Champa fight. So Goku and Vegeta already got hit by 100% Beerus and saw him in action.

Goku also says that Zamasu could become as strong as Beerus. And this was obvious foreshadowing to how strong Merged Zamasu would be as the Kaioshin state that he's a God beyond their understanding. There's no reason that Beerus and Toppo would be much different in power and he's also seen that power.

And in the manga continuity Goku saw the battle royal between the Gods of Destruction where they all went all out.

Keep in mind that Goku was referring to Present Zamasu, not Fused Zamasu. He thought that Present Zamasu alone would rival Beerus through training, despite not having immortality, despite not having Saiyan strength.

[Grand Marshal 1]

From my point of view, we never received any indication as to how strong Beerus is. If we go by timelines, then in the Manga Beerus should rival a semi-Fully powered Vegito Blue.

By non-canon standarts, in Dragon Ball Fusions (I think) a fusion between 5 Saiyans with a spirit bomb absorbed was said to surpass Beerus' strength for a short period of time.

NOW, by anime data, the only way Goku could possibly know how strong Beerus is would be if he heard him in the ToP, while speaking of Goku's third, final and fully-powered Ultra Instinct Omen form. It was said to have possibly surpass Beerus. This would place Goku in that phase, above or at the same level as Vegito Blue from the FT Arc of the manga.

Beerus should be stronger than a Spirit Bomb though, subsequently stronger than Blue Kaio-Ken ×20, LSSJ2 Kefla and Phase 2 UIO Goku. Low Full Power Jiren level is my estimate for Beerus' power. Above Toppo's GoD Mode, but I can't say for sure if he would outclass Beyond Blue (Evolved) Vegeta.

[Hugo Boss]

Goku was a little too busy trying not to be killed by Jiren to know where Toppo stands. That is also assuming if Goku thinks Toppo =< Beerus. Strangely enough, Goku never personally comments on Toppo's power. Heck, we don't even know if he knows Jiren was the rumored 'mortal stronger than a god' since when that line was said again, Goku was trying not to die.

Top’s transformation interrupted their fight though. This is likely implying Top’s ki caught their attention, including Jiren’s. And Vermoud loudly told everyone what Top had become. Everyone felt the battlefield being affected by the first hakai as well. Anyway, sometimes Goku looks away from the fight, like when Gohan beat Dyspo. And Vegeta, by extension, gets distracted by this attitude. They seemed to be aware of what was happening.

Goku was hit by Beerus' unrestrained power and he literally speaks on Beerus' power by stating Zamasu could become as strong as him. Goku knows, everyone relevant knows. The narrative doesn't have Beerus' power as a secret. That's something that fans made up. Characters stronger than Beerus have demonstrated their power so why would Beerus' power be a secret? Makes no sense.

Goku has no way of knowing Beerus’ full power, so anything he says regarding that can’t be taken seriously. Beerus lied to him and Whis is the only person that knew it.

[Zamasu55]

From my point of view, we never received any indication as to how strong Beerus is. If we go by timelines, then in the Manga Beerus should rival a semi-Fully powered Vegito Blue.

By non-canon standarts, in Dragon Ball Fusions (I think) a fusion between 5 Saiyans with a spirit bomb absorbed was said to surpass Beerus' strength for a short period of time.

NOW, by anime data, the only way Goku could possibly know how strong Beerus is would be if he heard him in the ToP, while speaking of Goku's third, final and fully-powered Ultra Instinct Omen form. It was said to have possibly surpass Beerus. This would place Goku in that phase, above or at the same level as Vegito Blue from the FT Arc of the manga.

Beerus should be stronger than a Spirit Bomb though, subsequently stronger than Blue Kaio-Ken ×20, LSSJ2 Kefla and Phase 2 UIO Goku. Low Full Power Jiren level is my estimate for Beerus' power. Above Toppo's GoD Mode, but I can't say for sure if he would outclass Beyond Blue (Evolved) Vegeta.

When? In the anime this does not happen.

[ZombieVito]

Goku was a little too busy trying not to be killed by Jiren to know where Toppo stands. That is also assuming if Goku thinks Toppo =< Beerus. Strangely enough, Goku never personally comments on Toppo's power. Heck, we don't even know if he knows Jiren was the rumored 'mortal stronger than a god' since when that line was said again, Goku was trying not to die.

Top’s transformation interrupted their fight though. This is likely implying Top’s ki caught their attention, including Jiren’s. And Vermoud loudly told everyone what Top had become. Everyone felt the battlefield being affected by the first hakai as well. Anyway, sometimes Goku looks away from the fight, like when Gohan beat Dyspo. And Vegeta, by extension, gets distracted by this attitude. They seemed to be aware of what was happening.

Goku was hit by Beerus' unrestrained power and he literally speaks on Beerus' power by stating Zamasu could become as strong as him. Goku knows, everyone relevant knows. The narrative doesn't have Beerus' power as a secret. That's something that fans made up. Characters stronger than Beerus have demonstrated their power so why would Beerus' power be a secret? Makes no sense.

Goku has no way of knowing Beerus’ full power, so anything he says regarding that can’t be taken seriously. Beerus lied to him and Whis is the only person that knew it.

He already said it. They got hit by an unrestrained Beerus on E18.

[ruler9871]

How strong do you guys think Broly would be if he mastered his unique SSJ form like Kale did in the anime?

[Miracles]

All the Beerus reaching and fanfiction. Are you guys that desperate to try and get rid of him?

The very current film of Dragonball gives another unknown about Beerus power. Goku gave a definitive answer about Broly being much stronger than himself but didn't even know if Broly is stronger than Beerus.

It's no different when Kaioshin asked if Vegetto surpassed Beerus when he was powering up the Final Kamehameha. Then Toyotaro even comes out later and says it is an unknown still.

Beerus full power is a mystery and anyone who claims otherwise is using the "speak it into existence" philosophy in order to trick themselves into their own fantasy world.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

All the Beerus reaching and fanfiction. Are you guys that desperate to try and get rid of him?

The very current film of Dragonball gives another unknown about Beerus power. Goku gave a definitive answer about Broly being much stronger than himself but didn't even know if Broly is stronger than Beerus.

It's no different when Kaioshin asked if Vegetto surpassed Beerus when he was powering up the Final Kamehameha. Then Toyotaro even comes out later and says it is an unknown still.

Beerus full power is a mystery and anyone who claims otherwise is using the "speak it into existence" philosophy in order to trick themselves into their own fantasy world.

Mind quitting it with the "headcanon reaching obviously grasping at straws" nonsense?

It's one thing to think that Beerus is still ahead of the game. It's another to go on these spiels about how we're all idiots and sheep who are obviously missing the objective truth of the matter. Tone it down, will ya? Just agree to disagree about where we think people stand, and don't dramatize it.

[HeroR]

Goku was a little too busy trying not to be killed by Jiren to know where Toppo stands. That is also assuming if Goku thinks Toppo =< Beerus. Strangely enough, Goku never personally comments on Toppo's power. Heck, we don't even know if he knows Jiren was the rumored 'mortal stronger than a god' since when that line was said again, Goku was trying not to die.

Top’s transformation interrupted their fight though. This is likely implying Top’s ki caught their attention, including Jiren’s. And Vermoud loudly told everyone what Top had become. Everyone felt the battlefield being affected by the first hakai as well. Anyway, sometimes Goku looks away from the fight, like when Gohan beat Dyspo. And Vegeta, by extension, gets distracted by this attitude. They seemed to be aware of what was happening.

Goku was hit by Beerus' unrestrained power and he literally speaks on Beerus' power by stating Zamasu could become as strong as him. Goku knows, everyone relevant knows. The narrative doesn't have Beerus' power as a secret. That's something that fans made up. Characters stronger than Beerus have demonstrated their power so why would Beerus' power be a secret? Makes no sense.

Goku has no way of knowing Beerus’ full power, so anything he says regarding that can’t be taken seriously. Beerus lied to him and Whis is the only person that knew it.

That’s assuming Goku heard Belmont. There were times people talked from the bleachers when Goku didn’t hear them, like he heard none of the UI talk, Freeza had to tell him. Especially when Belmont was talking to U7 and not the fighters.

Overall, the only thing Goku would know is that Toppo was still weaker than Jiren. The rest is assuming if he thinks God of Destruction Toppo is within the same power range as Beerus.

[HeroR]

Goku was a little too busy trying not to be killed by Jiren to know where Toppo stands. That is also assuming if Goku thinks Toppo =< Beerus. Strangely enough, Goku never personally comments on Toppo's power. Heck, we don't even know if he knows Jiren was the rumored 'mortal stronger than a god' since when that line was said again, Goku was trying not to die.

Top’s transformation interrupted their fight though. This is likely implying Top’s ki caught their attention, including Jiren’s. And Vermoud loudly told everyone what Top had become. Everyone felt the battlefield being affected by the first hakai as well. Anyway, sometimes Goku looks away from the fight, like when Gohan beat Dyspo. And Vegeta, by extension, gets distracted by this attitude. They seemed to be aware of what was happening.

Goku was hit by Beerus' unrestrained power and he literally speaks on Beerus' power by stating Zamasu could become as strong as him. Goku knows, everyone relevant knows. The narrative doesn't have Beerus' power as a secret. That's something that fans made up. Characters stronger than Beerus have demonstrated their power so why would Beerus' power be a secret? Makes no sense.

Goku has no way of knowing Beerus’ full power, so anything he says regarding that can’t be taken seriously. Beerus lied to him and Whis is the only person that knew it.

He already said it. They got hit by an unrestrained Beerus on E18.

That’s assuming on their part. Remember that Beerus told Goku that he was going 100% in 13. Even if Goku thinks that’s untrue, he already has a skewed view of Beerus’ power.

That and Vegeta should of had his head knocked off if that really was an unrestrained kick, especially when Vegeta was off-guard when he took it.

[ZombieVito]

That and Vegeta should of had his head knocked off if that really was an unrestrained kick, especially when Vegeta was off-guard when he took it.

[Koitsukai]

Even if Beerus is still stronger than what we've seen in Ep 130, which is officially up for debate, the power displayed in that episode got Beerus and his peers showing some respect, and he was clearly jealous and amazed, so he can't be many times stronger than the ToP strongest. He might be above it, equal to it or below it, but it is his tier. He doesn't get stomped nor stomps himself.

So Goku might not know exactly where Beerus stands, but he sure knows where LB Jiren and himself as a MUI user stand. He seems to be quite precise at gauging other's real PL. He knew he had no chance against Cell, he knew Ginyu's Tokusentai weren't a threat at all and just how much ki would he need to deal with Ginyu, he thought he could've destroyed Fat Buu but didn't and was right, he wasn't wrong about FP SS3 destroying Kid Buu either, he just didn't understand fully his own transformation or Buu's determination, so if Goku guesses about someone's PL, I'll take his word. He can't be that much off the mark.

I, myself, believe MUI and LB Jiren are above Beerus, therefore Goku has a clearer notion of that crazy tier he was a part of for like 2 minutes.

[wolflonnie]

All the Beerus reaching and fanfiction. Are you guys that desperate to try and get rid of him?

The very current film of Dragonball gives another unknown about Beerus power. Goku gave a definitive answer about Broly being much stronger than himself but didn't even know if Broly is stronger than Beerus.

It's no different when Kaioshin asked if Vegetto surpassed Beerus when he was powering up the Final Kamehameha. Then Toyotaro even comes out later and says it is an unknown still.

Beerus full power is a mystery and anyone who claims otherwise is using the "speak it into existence" philosophy in order to trick themselves into their own fantasy world.

Um yeah, we'd like a definitive standpoint on Beerus' power cause it sure has gotten annoying and frustrating.
Any time there is a direct comparison, people jump brush that very comparison off for some reason, to the point of saying that Shin is talking out of his ass while the SSB Vegetto comparison, is the manga, is clearly author's intent.
Me, I agree with @Koitsukai. Beerus is comparable to SSB Vegetto / SSB Gogeta / Jiren / MUI Goku / Broly.
Direct statements are becoming more and more common in that regard. Making Beerus even stronger than these guys is pure nonsense and a desperate way to keep him as the top dog (cat), while honestly it's way overdue to have him surpassed for good. It's not like he has been used in the story much. As long as he's hanging around being stronger than Goku & co., all the new storylines will have enemies "probably as strong/stronger than Beerus", which is so boring.
To be fair, personally, Beerus' power is one of the things that annoy me the most regarding DBS. An unending cycle of keeping a character relevant in a fake way because Toriyama can't be bothered of thinking how to involve him in a new storyline.

[Hugo Boss]

if Goku guesses about someone's PL, I'll take his word. He can't be that much off the mark.

The problem is, there is an in-universe reason for his guesses to be off the mark when it comes to Beerus. And since Beerus didn’t get involved in a fight after Battle of Gods, Goku has just the memory of that fight. Beerus’ true full power is being kept a secret.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

if Goku guesses about someone's PL, I'll take his word. He can't be that much off the mark.

The problem is, there is an in-universe reason for his guesses to be off the mark when it comes to Beerus. And since Beerus didn’t get involved in a fight after Battle of Gods, Goku has just the memory of that fight. Beerus’ true full power is being kept a secret.

At the same time, we've had plenty of other comments to support where Beerus stands more precisely, such as Whis commenting on the level of God of Destruction as a whole in comparison to Jiren, as well as Shin who makes clear that SSB Vegito (and now Gogeta) are at that kind of level as well.

[HeroR]

That and Vegeta should of had his head knocked off if that really was an unrestrained kick, especially when Vegeta was off-guard when he took it.

In Super, being off-guard means even a laser can kill you. Heck, Goku wanted the TOP after a bullet marked him.

Even better, Krillin took an unretained punched from base form Goku and this happened to him while he was guarding and ready for it:

https://youtu.be/KrTls3ulGcY?t=35

[HeroR]

if Goku guesses about someone's PL, I'll take his word. He can't be that much off the mark.

The problem is, there is an in-universe reason for his guesses to be off the mark when it comes to Beerus. And since Beerus didn’t get involved in a fight after Battle of Gods, Goku has just the memory of that fight. Beerus’ true full power is being kept a secret.

At the same time, we've had plenty of other comments to support where Beerus stands more precisely, such as Whis commenting on the level of God of Destruction as a whole in comparison to Jiren, as well as Shin who makes clear that SSB Vegito (and now Gogeta) are at that kind of level as well.

Except Shin’s comments was called in question by Toyo himself. Saying Shin could be wrong. And Gogeta comes from a secondary source that runs contrary to what the manga said. Like one source stating Kid Buu was the strongest form of Buu.

All the Beerus reaching and fanfiction. Are you guys that desperate to try and get rid of him?

The very current film of Dragonball gives another unknown about Beerus power. Goku gave a definitive answer about Broly being much stronger than himself but didn't even know if Broly is stronger than Beerus.

It's no different when Kaioshin asked if Vegetto surpassed Beerus when he was powering up the Final Kamehameha. Then Toyotaro even comes out later and says it is an unknown still.

Beerus full power is a mystery and anyone who claims otherwise is using the "speak it into existence" philosophy in order to trick themselves into their own fantasy world.

Um yeah, we'd like a definitive standpoint on Beerus' power cause it sure has gotten annoying and frustrating.
Any time there is a direct comparison, people jump brush that very comparison off for some reason, to the point of saying that Shin is talking out of his ass while the SSB Vegetto comparison, is the manga, is clearly author's intent.
Me, I agree with @Koitsukai. Beerus is comparable to SSB Vegetto / SSB Gogeta / Jiren / MUI Goku / Broly.
Direct statements are becoming more and more common in that regard. Making Beerus even stronger than these guys is pure nonsense and a desperate way to keep him as the top dog (cat), while honestly it's way overdue to have him surpassed for good. It's not like he has been used in the story much. As long as he's hanging around being stronger than Goku & co., all the new storylines will have enemies "probably as strong/stronger than Beerus", which is so boring.
To be fair, personally, Beerus' power is one of the things that annoy me the most regarding DBS. An unending cycle of keeping a character relevant in a fake way because Toriyama can't be bothered of thinking how to involve him in a new storyline.

Except the author himself said Shin could be wrong. When directed you asked who would win between Vegito and Beerus, Toyo actually said who knows, since Shin could be wrong.

[Hugo Boss]

we've had plenty of other comments to support where Beerus stands more precisely, such as Whis commenting on the level of God of Destruction as a whole in comparison to Jiren, as well as Shin who makes clear that SSB Vegito (and now Gogeta) are at that kind of level as well.

The Kaioshin are demonstrably not reliable when trying to gauge God of Destruction powerlevel, notably even Gowasu can’t tell how strong Beerus is. Whis is probably the only person reliable in this matter, but even in that instance he is not telling Jiren is stronger than Beerus, but rather the God of Destruction level. He knows Beerus can use Ultra Instinct in some capacity, which is a state that is beyond God of Destruction.

[Miracles]

All the Beerus reaching and fanfiction. Are you guys that desperate to try and get rid of him?

The very current film of Dragonball gives another unknown about Beerus power. Goku gave a definitive answer about Broly being much stronger than himself but didn't even know if Broly is stronger than Beerus.

It's no different when Kaioshin asked if Vegetto surpassed Beerus when he was powering up the Final Kamehameha. Then Toyotaro even comes out later and says it is an unknown still.

Beerus full power is a mystery and anyone who claims otherwise is using the "speak it into existence" philosophy in order to trick themselves into their own fantasy world.

Mind quitting it with the "headcanon reaching obviously grasping at straws" nonsense?

It's one thing to think that Beerus is still ahead of the game. It's another to go on these spiels about how we're all idiots and sheep who are obviously missing the objective truth of the matter. Tone it down, will ya? Just agree to disagree about where we think people stand, and don't dramatize it.

Can't have a healthy sincere discussion if you don't separate fact from fiction. It just becomes a lawless conversation zone when dialogue does not abide by plot.

All the Beerus reaching and fanfiction. Are you guys that desperate to try and get rid of him?

The very current film of Dragonball gives another unknown about Beerus power. Goku gave a definitive answer about Broly being much stronger than himself but didn't even know if Broly is stronger than Beerus.

It's no different when Kaioshin asked if Vegetto surpassed Beerus when he was powering up the Final Kamehameha. Then Toyotaro even comes out later and says it is an unknown still.

Beerus full power is a mystery and anyone who claims otherwise is using the "speak it into existence" philosophy in order to trick themselves into their own fantasy world.

Um yeah, we'd like a definitive standpoint on Beerus' power cause it sure has gotten annoying and frustrating.
Any time there is a direct comparison, people jump brush that very comparison off for some reason, to the point of saying that Shin is talking out of his ass while the SSB Vegetto comparison, is the manga, is clearly author's intent.
Me, I agree with @Koitsukai. Beerus is comparable to SSB Vegetto / SSB Gogeta / Jiren / MUI Goku / Broly.
Direct statements are becoming more and more common in that regard. Making Beerus even stronger than these guys is pure nonsense and a desperate way to keep him as the top dog (cat), while honestly it's way overdue to have him surpassed for good. It's not like he has been used in the story much. As long as he's hanging around being stronger than Goku & co., all the new storylines will have enemies "probably as strong/stronger than Beerus", which is so boring.
To be fair, personally, Beerus' power is one of the things that annoy me the most regarding DBS. An unending cycle of keeping a character relevant in a fake way because Toriyama can't be bothered of thinking how to involve him in a new storyline.

You can think it's boring that the plot has made Beerus Goku's benchmark; That his power being a mystery frustrates you still [which is expected if you are the goalpost], however your feelings doesn't change the fact that he hasn't been surpassed by anybody up till today. A final boss doesn't show anything till the end...

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

All the Beerus reaching and fanfiction. Are you guys that desperate to try and get rid of him?

The very current film of Dragonball gives another unknown about Beerus power. Goku gave a definitive answer about Broly being much stronger than himself but didn't even know if Broly is stronger than Beerus.

It's no different when Kaioshin asked if Vegetto surpassed Beerus when he was powering up the Final Kamehameha. Then Toyotaro even comes out later and says it is an unknown still.

Beerus full power is a mystery and anyone who claims otherwise is using the "speak it into existence" philosophy in order to trick themselves into their own fantasy world.

Mind quitting it with the "headcanon reaching obviously grasping at straws" nonsense?

It's one thing to think that Beerus is still ahead of the game. It's another to go on these spiels about how we're all idiots and sheep who are obviously missing the objective truth of the matter. Tone it down, will ya? Just agree to disagree about where we think people stand, and don't dramatize it.

Can't have a healthy sincere discussion if you don't separate fact from fiction. It just becomes a lawless conversation zone when dialogue does not abide by plot.

All the Beerus reaching and fanfiction. Are you guys that desperate to try and get rid of him?

The very current film of Dragonball gives another unknown about Beerus power. Goku gave a definitive answer about Broly being much stronger than himself but didn't even know if Broly is stronger than Beerus.

It's no different when Kaioshin asked if Vegetto surpassed Beerus when he was powering up the Final Kamehameha. Then Toyotaro even comes out later and says it is an unknown still.

Beerus full power is a mystery and anyone who claims otherwise is using the "speak it into existence" philosophy in order to trick themselves into their own fantasy world.

Um yeah, we'd like a definitive standpoint on Beerus' power cause it sure has gotten annoying and frustrating.
Any time there is a direct comparison, people jump brush that very comparison off for some reason, to the point of saying that Shin is talking out of his ass while the SSB Vegetto comparison, is the manga, is clearly author's intent.
Me, I agree with @Koitsukai. Beerus is comparable to SSB Vegetto / SSB Gogeta / Jiren / MUI Goku / Broly.
Direct statements are becoming more and more common in that regard. Making Beerus even stronger than these guys is pure nonsense and a desperate way to keep him as the top dog (cat), while honestly it's way overdue to have him surpassed for good. It's not like he has been used in the story much. As long as he's hanging around being stronger than Goku & co., all the new storylines will have enemies "probably as strong/stronger than Beerus", which is so boring.
To be fair, personally, Beerus' power is one of the things that annoy me the most regarding DBS. An unending cycle of keeping a character relevant in a fake way because Toriyama can't be bothered of thinking how to involve him in a new storyline.

You can think it's boring that the plot has made Beerus Goku's benchmark; That his power being a mystery frustrates you still [which is expected if you are the goalpost], however your feelings doesn't change the fact that he hasn't been surpassed by anybody up till today. A final boss doesn't show anything till the end...

See, this is exactly what I mean.

You act like we're somehow just entirely missing the facts, when we often bring up plenty of evidence that can go one way or the other. You're the one claiming that Beerus has never definitively been surpassed. Prove it, then. Provide undeniable evidence that cannot go either way that Beerus is still top cat as you claim, that it's somehow still Toriyama's intent to this day, that says that Beerus is the strongest there is and that it's not just your interpretation of the facts present currently that can be interpreted differently.

Prove that we're misrepresenting the undeniable and straight facts, and that your interpretation is the one and only truth. Do it. Come on, then. I won't stand for this kind of debating etiquette if you can't sell it.