PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:01 pm
Mind quitting it with the "headcanon reaching obviously grasping at straws" nonsense?
It's one thing to think that Beerus is still ahead of the game. It's another to go on these spiels about how we're all idiots and sheep who are obviously missing the objective truth of the matter. Tone it down, will ya? Just agree to disagree about where we think people stand, and don't dramatize it.
Can't have a healthy sincere discussion if you don't separate fact from fiction. It just becomes a lawless conversation zone when dialogue does not abide by plot.
wolflonnie wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:12 am
Um yeah, we'd like a definitive standpoint on Beerus' power cause it sure has gotten annoying and frustrating.
Any time there is a direct comparison, people jump brush that very comparison off for some reason, to the point of saying that Shin is talking out of his ass while the SSB Vegetto comparison, is the manga, is clearly author's intent.
Me, I agree with @Koitsukai. Beerus is comparable to SSB Vegetto / SSB Gogeta / Jiren / MUI Goku / Broly.
Direct statements are becoming more and more common in that regard. Making Beerus even stronger than these guys is pure nonsense and a desperate way to keep him as the top dog (cat), while honestly it's way overdue to have him surpassed for good. It's not like he has been used in the story much. As long as he's hanging around being stronger than Goku & co., all the new storylines will have enemies "probably as strong/stronger than Beerus", which is so boring.
To be fair, personally, Beerus' power is one of the things that annoy me the most regarding DBS. An unending cycle of keeping a character relevant in a fake way because Toriyama can't be bothered of thinking how to involve him in a new storyline.
You can think it's boring that the plot has made Beerus Goku's benchmark; That his power being a mystery frustrates you still [which is expected if you are the goalpost], however your feelings doesn't change the fact that he hasn't been surpassed by anybody up till today. A final boss doesn't show anything till the end...
See, this is exactly what I mean.
You act like we're somehow just entirely missing the facts, when we often bring up plenty of evidence that can go one way or the other. You're the one claiming that Beerus has never definitively been surpassed. Prove it, then. Provide undeniable evidence that cannot go either way that Beerus is still top cat as you claim, that it's somehow still Toriyama's intent to this day, that says that Beerus is the strongest there is and that it's not just your interpretation of the facts present currently that can be interpreted differently.
Prove that we're misrepresenting the undeniable and straight facts, and that your interpretation is the one and only truth. Do it. Come on, then. I won't stand for this kind of debating etiquette if you can't sell it.
It's easy, just follow the plot, the fandom can leave their add-on's and takeaways out of it...
Spoiler:
BOG...
Akira Toriyama: "The last part in particular, where the main character Goku is unable to win, was a bit of a dangerous gamble going by existing theory. By doing that, however, I was able to preserve the dignity of Beerus, rumored to be the strongest there is. With respect to Goku, as well, I incorporated a message that, by having a future goal to shoot for, Dragon Ball will not end."
Toyotarō:
… I get the feeling I’ve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?
Toriyama:
Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.
Toyotarō:
Ever since Battle of Gods, Beerus and Whis have become central figures.
Toriyama:
If it hadn’t been for those two, making any more story after that would have been a nightmare. There wouldn’t have been anything to expand upon. That’s why I’m so glad to have them around. And their voices are good, too! Those voice artists are so talented!
Even the manga has the same Toriyama plot...
Before TOP...
Finally...Broly...
About Beerus
Interviewer: When you created Beerus, I believe it was already a given that he was “strong”.
Toriyama: That’s right; the strongest in the universe, as a matter of fact, since there’s nothing higher.
Interviewer: Incidentally, creating characters must be difficult….
Toriyama: It is difficult. I’ve already gotten to the point where I’m pretty much at my limit to making them look strong.
Nozawa:Every time, it’s “strongest”, “strongest”.
Toriyama:Right; there’s no way you can take a step back, can you? You can’t have [people telling you], “You know, the enemy this time is weaker than the one before,” after all. So, thinking that if I make it somebody cool, kids would probably be happy, and it could be popular, I figured maybe something like a cat who’s a bit spiteful would be good.
Can't have a healthy sincere discussion if you don't separate fact from fiction. It just becomes a lawless conversation zone when dialogue does not abide by plot.
You can think it's boring that the plot has made Beerus Goku's benchmark; That his power being a mystery frustrates you still [which is expected if you are the goalpost], however your feelings doesn't change the fact that he hasn't been surpassed by anybody up till today. A final boss doesn't show anything till the end...
See, this is exactly what I mean.
You act like we're somehow just entirely missing the facts, when we often bring up plenty of evidence that can go one way or the other. You're the one claiming that Beerus has never definitively been surpassed. Prove it, then. Provide undeniable evidence that cannot go either way that Beerus is still top cat as you claim, that it's somehow still Toriyama's intent to this day, that says that Beerus is the strongest there is and that it's not just your interpretation of the facts present currently that can be interpreted differently.
Prove that we're misrepresenting the undeniable and straight facts, and that your interpretation is the one and only truth. Do it. Come on, then. I won't stand for this kind of debating etiquette if you can't sell it.
It's easy, just follow the plot, the fandom can leave their add-on's and takeaways out of it...
Spoiler:
BOG...
Akira Toriyama: "The last part in particular, where the main character Goku is unable to win, was a bit of a dangerous gamble going by existing theory. By doing that, however, I was able to preserve the dignity of Beerus, rumored to be the strongest there is. With respect to Goku, as well, I incorporated a message that, by having a future goal to shoot for, Dragon Ball will not end."
Toyotarō:
… I get the feeling I’ve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?
Toriyama:
Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.
Toyotarō:
Ever since Battle of Gods, Beerus and Whis have become central figures.
Toriyama:
If it hadn’t been for those two, making any more story after that would have been a nightmare. There wouldn’t have been anything to expand upon. That’s why I’m so glad to have them around. And their voices are good, too! Those voice artists are so talented!
Even the manga has the same Toriyama plot...
Before TOP...
Finally...Broly...
About Beerus
Interviewer: When you created Beerus, I believe it was already a given that he was “strong”.
Toriyama: That’s right; the strongest in the universe, as a matter of fact, since there’s nothing higher.
Interviewer: Incidentally, creating characters must be difficult….
Toriyama: It is difficult. I’ve already gotten to the point where I’m pretty much at my limit to making them look strong.
Nozawa:Every time, it’s “strongest”, “strongest”.
Toriyama:Right; there’s no way you can take a step back, can you? You can’t have [people telling you], “You know, the enemy this time is weaker than the one before,” after all. So, thinking that if I make it somebody cool, kids would probably be happy, and it could be popular, I figured maybe something like a cat who’s a bit spiteful would be good.
Beerus hasn't been surpassed by anybody. Since current enemies are stronger than the past he is still the guy.
Thank you all for your time.
Nice stuff. I ALMOST believe you.
HOWEVER...... the "strongest ever" moniker has been used throughout the series, by the likes of Cell, Majin Buu, Freeza, King Piccolo, Goku himself, etc.
Second, many of those quotes from Toriyama are either in an isolated context or made during a time when Toriyama didn't have his mind set. Beerus factually isn't the strongest in Universe 7; Whis is. At the time of RoF and the U6/7 Arc, Toriyama still didn't believe it was time for Beerus to be surpassed; the Tournament of Power is far past that original point and thus no longer in the moment. Beerus has also not been factually claimed as the strongest there is within either medium, something that Toriyama can easily contest but has yet to, with his comments being barely more than the kind of hype that was surrounding Broly's marketing.
Beerus isn't factually the strongest God of Destruction there is; Quitela and Belmod are peer gods. Goku states exactly that Broly is probably stronger than Beerus; there's very little uncertainty in his statement. Whis states that the God of Destruction whom is involved in the rumour of a mortal that even a God of Destruction can't defeat is stronger than Beerus; Beerus contests his defeat in an arm-wrestling match, but never says that Whis is wrong; he brushes off the comment but never outright denies its legitimacy. Ultra Instinct is a technique that even Gods of Destruction fail to master; Goku masters it, getting ALL of them to stand up in respect. Jiren's full-power is what's in contention for potentially being above even the level of God of Destruction with which even Beerus himself is lobbed in with; this level is surpassed by Ultra Instinct Goku and Jiren's hidden-power.
As seen by how many people, myself included, have come to alternative interpretations of the exact same evidence you bring up, I hereby declare your attitude BS and suggest you change up your strategy from insulting other people's interpretations and declaring them wrong and headcanon outright. Instead, why don't you admit that you may possibly be wrong, may possibly be reading into something that isn't as clear cut, and have convinced yourself of a self-serving bias where you dismiss evidence to the contrary on false pretenses and pretend tat your interpretation is superior.
I apologize for getting rant-y, but I can't stand people with your kind of attitude where you presume that you're right and that other people are being idiots for not believing what you believe. I could easily be wrong on the above, but guess what? IT GOES BOTH WAYS. You'll likely brush this off by saying that I'm interpreting the facts wrong and that I'm somehow ignoring the obvious evidence to the contrary, and I likely won't convince you to change your ways. Just know that I'm ready to do this song and dance again so long as you continue to act the way you have, dismissive and deaf to the very notion that your view on the facts isn't the only valid one.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:59 pm
See, this is exactly what I mean.
You act like we're somehow just entirely missing the facts, when we often bring up plenty of evidence that can go one way or the other. You're the one claiming that Beerus has never definitively been surpassed. Prove it, then. Provide undeniable evidence that cannot go either way that Beerus is still top cat as you claim, that it's somehow still Toriyama's intent to this day, that says that Beerus is the strongest there is and that it's not just your interpretation of the facts present currently that can be interpreted differently.
Prove that we're misrepresenting the undeniable and straight facts, and that your interpretation is the one and only truth. Do it. Come on, then. I won't stand for this kind of debating etiquette if you can't sell it.
It's easy, just follow the plot, the fandom can leave their add-on's and takeaways out of it...
Spoiler:
BOG...
Akira Toriyama: "The last part in particular, where the main character Goku is unable to win, was a bit of a dangerous gamble going by existing theory. By doing that, however, I was able to preserve the dignity of Beerus, rumored to be the strongest there is. With respect to Goku, as well, I incorporated a message that, by having a future goal to shoot for, Dragon Ball will not end."
Toyotarō:
… I get the feeling I’ve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?
Toriyama:
Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.
Toyotarō:
Ever since Battle of Gods, Beerus and Whis have become central figures.
Toriyama:
If it hadn’t been for those two, making any more story after that would have been a nightmare. There wouldn’t have been anything to expand upon. That’s why I’m so glad to have them around. And their voices are good, too! Those voice artists are so talented!
Even the manga has the same Toriyama plot...
Before TOP...
Finally...Broly...
About Beerus
Interviewer: When you created Beerus, I believe it was already a given that he was “strong”.
Toriyama: That’s right; the strongest in the universe, as a matter of fact, since there’s nothing higher.
Interviewer: Incidentally, creating characters must be difficult….
Toriyama: It is difficult. I’ve already gotten to the point where I’m pretty much at my limit to making them look strong.
Nozawa:Every time, it’s “strongest”, “strongest”.
Toriyama:Right; there’s no way you can take a step back, can you? You can’t have [people telling you], “You know, the enemy this time is weaker than the one before,” after all. So, thinking that if I make it somebody cool, kids would probably be happy, and it could be popular, I figured maybe something like a cat who’s a bit spiteful would be good.
Beerus hasn't been surpassed by anybody. Since current enemies are stronger than the past he is still the guy.
Thank you all for your time.
Nice stuff. I ALMOST believe you.
HOWEVER...... the "strongest ever" moniker has been used throughout the series, by the likes of Cell, Majin Buu, Freeza, King Piccolo, Goku himself, etc.
Second, many of those quotes from Toriyama are either in an isolated context or made during a time when Toriyama didn't have his mind set. Beerus factually isn't the strongest in Universe 7; Whis is. At the time of RoF and the U6/7 Arc, Toriyama still didn't believe it was time for Beerus to be surpassed; the Tournament of Power is far past that original point and thus no longer in the moment. Beerus has also not been factually claimed as the strongest there is within either medium, something that Toriyama can easily contest but has yet to, with his comments being barely more than the kind of hype that was surrounding Broly's marketing.
Beerus isn't factually the strongest God of Destruction there is; Quitela and Belmod are peer gods. Goku states exactly that Broly is probably stronger than Beerus; there's very little uncertainty in his statement. Whis states that the God of Destruction whom is involved in the rumour of a mortal that even a God of Destruction can't defeat is stronger than Beerus; Beerus contests his defeat in an arm-wrestling match, but never says that Whis is wrong; he brushes off the comment but never outright denies its legitimacy. Ultra Instinct is a technique that even Gods of Destruction fail to master; Goku masters it, getting ALL of them to stand up in respect. Jiren's full-power is what's in contention for potentially being above even the level of God of Destruction with which even Beerus himself is lobbed in with; this level is surpassed by Ultra Instinct Goku and Jiren's hidden-power.
As seen by how many people, myself included, have come to alternative interpretations of the exact same evidence you bring up, I hereby declare your attitude BS and suggest you change up your strategy from insulting other people's interpretations and declaring them wrong and headcanon outright. Instead, why don't you admit that you may possibly be wrong, may possibly be reading into something that isn't as clear cut, and have convinced yourself of a self-serving bias where you dismiss evidence to the contrary on false pretenses and pretend tat your interpretation is superior.
I apologize for getting rant-y, but I can't stand people with your kind of attitude where you presume that you're right and that other people are being idiots for not believing what you believe. I could easily be wrong on the above, but guess what? IT GOES BOTH WAYS. You'll likely brush this off by saying that I'm interpreting the facts wrong and that I'm somehow ignoring the obvious evidence to the contrary, and I likely won't convince you to change your ways. Just know that I'm ready to do this song and dance again so long as you continue to act the way you have, dismissive and deaf to the very notion that your view on the facts isn't the only valid one.
That's impressive...how You just ignored all the evidence within the story showing Beerus as Goku's benchmark and being unsurpassed with your appeal to emotion fallacy theories. Including a continual present statement about a plot point of always having the current enemy stronger than the last from Toriyama himself. Which means Broly > Jiren. And Goku doesn't even know if that Broly is stronger than Beerus! That means Beerus was right about the arm wrestling since he never lost in combat. Still being compared to the stronger enemy. Yet you still claim that Beerus is comparable to belmond?
I showed you the facts you still tried to deny them with your feelings. That is flat out wrong on your part and hence why your using headcanon to override the truth.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:33 am
we've had plenty of other comments to support where Beerus stands more precisely, such as Whis commenting on the level of God of Destruction as a whole in comparison to Jiren, as well as Shin who makes clear that SSB Vegito (and now Gogeta) are at that kind of level as well.
The Kaioshin are demonstrably not reliable when trying to gauge God of Destruction powerlevel, notably even Gowasu can’t tell how strong Beerus is. Whis is probably the only person reliable in this matter, but even in that instance he is not telling Jiren is stronger than Beerus, but rather the God of Destruction level. He knows Beerus can use Ultra Instinct in some capacity, which is a state that is beyond God of Destruction.
Shin's comments about other characters power (like Jiren's) have been back-up by others, and Beerus can only use UI as a technique, not a power-up.
There is currently nothing that suggest Beerus is still stronger than MUI Goku, Awakened Jiren and Full Power Broly.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.
Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:42 pm
I'm starting to think that magazine quote from Beerus actually meant MUI and not Omen.
Surely if MUI surpassed Beerus it would have been stated.
It doesn't matter at all. The quote was literally supposed to be quoting Beerus in the episode, but Beerus never actually said it in the episode itself. So this comment holds absolutely no value considering that it never actually made it into the material itself.
Spoiler:
Super carries on much of Dragon Ball and Z's charm in ways that might not immediately be obvious, while also bringing something new to the table. I certainly can't think of any previous arcs like Goku Black, and, for all its problems, the Tournament of Power is possibly the most ambitious storytelling endeavor in series history as far as how its narrative unfolds. It's also a thrill ride, which is all I wanted and exactly what I got. Super also canonizes decades old fan theories in ways that very naturally tie into the overall fabric of Dragon Ball's world in satisfying ways. All in all, Dragon Ball, Z, and Super are all well worth experiencing.
Everyone...Can I have everyone's attention please...I've been reminded how such of a prick I've been in my tone, and posts. I want to apologize to everyone for enduring my aggressive posts. I would hope you all will forgive me...I
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:42 pm
I'm starting to think that magazine quote from Beerus actually meant MUI and not Omen.
Surely if MUI surpassed Beerus it would have been stated.
It doesn't matter at all. The quote was literally supposed to be quoting Beerus in the episode, but Beerus never actually said it in the episode itself. So this comment holds absolutely no value considering that it never actually made it into the material itself.
I disagree. The information can be used if you choose to since nothing contradicts it outright.
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:42 pm
I'm starting to think that magazine quote from Beerus actually meant MUI and not Omen.
Surely if MUI surpassed Beerus it would have been stated.
It doesn't matter at all. The quote was literally supposed to be quoting Beerus in the episode, but Beerus never actually said it in the episode itself. So this comment holds absolutely no value considering that it never actually made it into the material itself.
I disagree. The information can be used if you choose to since nothing contradicts it outright.
Not being contradicted does not make it valid in and of itself.
Spoiler:
Super carries on much of Dragon Ball and Z's charm in ways that might not immediately be obvious, while also bringing something new to the table. I certainly can't think of any previous arcs like Goku Black, and, for all its problems, the Tournament of Power is possibly the most ambitious storytelling endeavor in series history as far as how its narrative unfolds. It's also a thrill ride, which is all I wanted and exactly what I got. Super also canonizes decades old fan theories in ways that very naturally tie into the overall fabric of Dragon Ball's world in satisfying ways. All in all, Dragon Ball, Z, and Super are all well worth experiencing.
That's the most annoying part, there are evidences suggesting Beerus is weaker/comparable to the likes of Jiren & co., others than don't. Pretty much like Saiyan Beyond God, Godly base, etc..
Sooo yeah, in the end everybody has his own headcanon and nobody wins.
The issue is that both Toei and Toyo have to keep things muddled in case Toriyama decides to change his mind and make Beerus as strong as, I don't know, freaking Whis or even the Grand Priest, which may be very well the case, given that Beerus is Toriyama's pet character.
Heck I wouldn't even be surprised if Beerus is actually the strongest character in all universes bar Zeno and if, at the end of all Dragonball, Goku and Vegeta can't still duel him even with Super Saiyan Rainbow.
Toriyama's little game has gotten stale and frustrating, rather than interesting.
wolflonnie wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:32 am
That's the most annoying part, there are evidences suggesting Beerus is weaker/comparable to the likes of Jiren & co., others than don't. Pretty much like Saiyan Beyond God, Godly base, etc..
Sooo yeah, in the end everybody has his own headcanon and nobody wins.
The issue is that both Toei and Toyo have to keep things muddled in case Toriyama decides to change his mind and make Beerus as strong as, I don't know, freaking Whis or even the Grand Priest, which may be very well the case, given that Beerus is Toriyama's pet character.
Heck I wouldn't even be surprised if Beerus is actually the strongest character in all universes bar Zeno and if, at the end of all Dragonball, Goku and Vegeta can't still duel him even with Super Saiyan Rainbow.
Toriyama's little game has gotten stale and frustrating, rather than interesting.
Agreed. Toriyama seriously needs to get over Beerus already, as both Toei & Toyotaro clearly want to and have hyped/put mortal characters above him.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.
Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.
ruler9871 wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:20 pm
Beerus can only use UI as a technique, not a power-up.
There is currently nothing that suggest Beerus is still stronger than MUI Goku, Awakened Jiren and Full Power Broly.
I wouldn’t be so sure of that, it was advertised as a technique but it works as power-up for Goku. There is no reason to assume it would be different with Beerus, specially when he is the first one that recognized the silver shining of the form. To be more precise, there is currently nothing that suggests Beerus (without Ultra Instinct) is stronger than Goku, Jiren and Broly. But he is in a untouchable position until Goku and Vegeta become his formidable opponent.
To be honest, ignoring all of the arguments here, i have no problem with Jiren and Broly being probably stronger than beerus (broly being the only with the statement in the show).
In both of those occasions, they were beat by something that is out of gokus control (U.I) or a method that they dont like relying on (Fusion). As far as we know, Goku and Vegeta will probably never reach beerus level in their ssb forms, conscidering how the movie showed us the massive gap there is between beerus and a ssb (gogeta in base would literally be God tier in the tournament of power) and it took gogeta going ssb to outclass someone on the level of a God of Destructiom or probably above. Just imagine base goku going up against his ssb form, thats what beerus vs current ssbs would look like.
Beerus is still an unbeatable wall without those techniques.
ruler9871 wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:20 pm
Beerus can only use UI as a technique, not a power-up.
There is currently nothing that suggest Beerus is still stronger than MUI Goku, Awakened Jiren and Full Power Broly.
I wouldn’t be so sure of that, it was advertised as a technique but it works as power-up for Goku. There is no reason to assume it would be different with Beerus, specially when he is the first one that recognized the silver shining of the form. To be more precise, there is currently nothing that suggests Beerus (without Ultra Instinct) is stronger than Goku, Jiren and Broly. But he is in a untouchable position until Goku and Vegeta become his formidable opponent.
There's nothing to suggest that Beerus even with UI is stronger than Jiren and MUI Goku.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.
Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.
ruler9871 wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:09 pm
There's nothing to suggest that Beerus even with UI is stronger than Jiren and MUI Goku.
I’m not sure what you are trying to say, but since Beerus never showed what he is truly capable of, these comparisons are pointless. Let’s wait until we see Goku or Vegeta fight him again.
By the way, this is my 777th post on this thread. Omg.
ruler9871 wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:09 pm
There's nothing to suggest that Beerus even with UI is stronger than Jiren and MUI Goku.
I’m not sure what you are trying to say, but since Beerus never showed what he is truly capable of, these comparisons are pointless. Let’s wait until we see Goku or Vegeta fight him again.
The "we never seen Beerus at full power" argument Beerus fans constantly make doesn't work. If a character is officially stated to be stronger than another, it doesn't matter if we never saw the weaker guy at full power.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.
Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.
Remember when Freeza was supposed to be mad at Goku for eliminating U2's last three warriors? Yeah, neither do I. Remember when Tienshinhan was supposed to have a brand new technique during his own episode? Yeah, neither do I.
These come from the same magazine that put MUI Goku "maybe" stronger than Beerus. In other terms, it's rubbish.
ruler9871 wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:09 pm
There's nothing to suggest that Beerus even with UI is stronger than Jiren and MUI Goku.
I’m not sure what you are trying to say, but since Beerus never showed what he is truly capable of, these comparisons are pointless. Let’s wait until we see Goku or Vegeta fight him again.
The "we never seen Beerus at full power" argument Beerus fans constantly make doesn't work. If a character is officially stated to be stronger than another, it doesn't matter if we never saw the weaker guy at full power.
I swear some of you guys be thinking beerus can one shot the other gods of destruction...
I know that broly has been the only one officially stated to be probably stronger than beerus, but MUI Goku and LB Jiren dont need statements to put them at least at beerus level or higher. MUI Goku was toying with someone already stronger than belmod, and managed to overpower that someone who managed to unlock a power up that increased his already hakaishin level+ power.
Good thing the manga showed that they are all relative.
If Jiren is suggested to perhaps surpass the GoD state by Whis in his suppressed or even full power state (to lowball), then he is DEFINITELY stronger than all of them including Beerus after breaking his limits.
Now let's talk about MUI Goku. Why would anyone even demand a proof that he is stronger than Beerus? He literally has Mastered something Beerus couldn't, toyed with a GoD tier + character and even the narrative makes him stronger, like how all the GoDs stood and the fact it was mentioned several times that it was a power that even GoDs don't have. Even Vegeta made a comment like: "step over the state of the gods and beat Jiren".
At this point you need to prove Beerus is above MUI Goku, not the other way around, same with Jiren.
Unless Beerus is considerably stronger than Belmod and the rest of the GoDs, there's no way he is above Jiren and MUI Goku. But he isn't. For all we know he isn't even the strongest GoD. Nothing suggests he is or even implies that.
In the manga at least, we know that they are all relative, with Beerus being slightly stronger than them except the rat GoD and Belmod who was faking being hurt, and would have won the entire thing if it had continued.
