Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PFM18]

So we are ignoring statements from characters now?

I dont see how this is even a counterpoint. If anything it undermines your own argument.

He literally says he can't keep up with him because of speed...

No, he just said he was faster. You're twisting the words to make it seem as though he was calling Zamasu slower than before, when that simply is not the case.

[Bullza]

Vegito does seem superior to Merged Zamasu but too by that much. The Chou Sensi stickers have Super Saiyan Blue Vegito at 9,300 and Merged Zamasu at 9,000.

God of Destruction Toppo was at 8,900 so Zamasu is probably GoD level. I can't remember what form he was in on the sticker though.

[GodVegetto91]

Vegito does seem superior to Merged Zamasu but too by that much. The Chou Sensi stickers have Super Saiyan Blue Vegito at 9,300 and Merged Zamasu at 9,000.

God of Destruction Toppo was at 8,900 so Zamasu is probably GoD level. I can't remember what form he was in on the sticker though.

I don’t care what some non canon stickers say. GoD Toppo was entire leaques and orders of magnitude beyond the likes of Fused Zamasu and SSJ Blue Vegito. This was evidenced by the fact that a heavily suppressed Jiren in episode 109 was stated to be the strongest opponent Kaioshin had ever seen. Whis confirms this. Several episodes after Goku first went UIO, the newly improved SSJ Blue Goku was faring even better against a “powered up” Jiren. Than you have GoD Toppo who was even stronger than a SSBE Vegeta. Someone who is 20 times stronger than regular SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta.

GoD Toppo > Initial SSBE Vegeta > latest SSJ Blue Goku (by 20x) > Heavily Suppressed Jiren from episode 109 >>>> Merged Zamasu.

The actual show > some random cards.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Vegito does seem superior to Merged Zamasu but too by that much. The Chou Sensi stickers have Super Saiyan Blue Vegito at 9,300 and Merged Zamasu at 9,000.

God of Destruction Toppo was at 8,900 so Zamasu is probably GoD level. I can't remember what form he was in on the sticker though.

Arent you one who argues for MUI Goku and Jiren > SSB Gogeta and Broly? Wouldnt be honest of you to use those stickers for comparing merged zamasu to other ToP characters, as the current set has Gogeta blue at 9700 and MUI goku/SSJFP Broly at 9600 (all three came in the same set too)

[Kenneth La Torre]

I dont see how this is even a counterpoint. If anything it undermines your own argument.

He literally says he can't keep up with him because of speed...

No, he just said he was faster. You're twisting the words to make it seem as though he was calling Zamasu slower than before, when that simply is not the case.

This. The statement at no point implied zamasu got slower. It was just vegito stepping up his game.

[Bullza]

Oh I don't place too much value in the stickers, they give a general idea and that's about it. I'm just saying that according to them Vegito is stronger.

Still if Super Saiyan Blue Vegito is maybe above Beerus then he's GoD level and Merged Zamasu wasn't really that far behind that he should be GoD level himself.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

With regards to the level of God of Destruction and beyond, I view it in a kind of story-based lens.

Vegito and Merged Zamasu showcase the main protagonists and antagonists finally reaching the level of God of Destruction as part of the narrative of that arc, whilst the Tournament of Power has them surpassing it entirely with Jiren and Ultra Instinct.

The Broly movie, then, is kinda like the U6/7 Tournament in that sense. Our characters are stronger than ever, but the established ceilings are technically lower than before or haven't been surpassed; Broly and Gogeta aren't above Jiren and Ultra Instinct, at least as far as the narrative of the progression is telling me.

[Kenneth La Torre]

With regards to the level of God of Destruction and beyond, I view it in a kind of story-based lens.

Vegito and Merged Zamasu showcase the main protagonists and antagonists finally reaching the level of God of Destruction as part of the narrative of that arc, whilst the Tournament of Power has them surpassing it entirely with Jiren and Ultra Instinct.

The Broly movie, then, is kinda like the U6/7 Tournament in that sense. Our characters are stronger than ever, but the established ceilings are technically lower than before or haven't been surpassed; Broly and Gogeta aren't above Jiren and Ultra Instinct, at least as far as the narrative of the progression is telling me.

Narrative progression doesnt tell us anything at all. In regards to broly, he is likely stronger than possibly the strongest GoD, while gogeta stomps anyone on that level. In regards to jiren, he is stronger than belmod, and UI Goku shits on that level.

This again, like the dozens of pages of debates before, reaches no conclusions other than these mentioned characters have power that probably surpasses GoD level. Who is stronger is completely up in the air. No one is right at the moment.

[ZombieVito]

No, he just said he was faster. You're twisting the words to make it seem as though he was calling Zamasu slower than before, when that simply is not the case.

Nope, that's wrong.

He says Zamasu can't keep up with his speed because of his body as it is right now, which is power weighted and that always makes you slow.

[PFM18]

No, he just said he was faster. You're twisting the words to make it seem as though he was calling Zamasu slower than before, when that simply is not the case.

Nope, that's wrong.

He says Zamasu can't keep up with his speed because of his body as it is right now, which is power weighted and that always makes you slow.

That's not at all what he said. You are comically fabricating dialogue that does not exist.

Vegito does seem superior to Merged Zamasu but too by that much. The Chou Sensi stickers have Super Saiyan Blue Vegito at 9,300 and Merged Zamasu at 9,000.

God of Destruction Toppo was at 8,900 so Zamasu is probably GoD level. I can't remember what form he was in on the sticker though.

Okay, the gaps on those stickers is never meant to be taken seriously, only the order that they are in, if anything. According to the same stickers, Gogeta is 100 stronger than Broly, and Gogeta dominated Broly, so this would comparatively depict Zamasu as an ant compared to Vegetto.

This was evidenced by the fact that a heavily suppressed Jiren in episode 109 was stated to be the strongest opponent Kaioshin had ever seen.

Well he said that KNOWING that Jiren was heavily suppressed, it doesn't necessarily mean the power he was exerting at that particular time was the strongest they had ever faced. It is akin to "He's dominating Goku, and he's not even trying! He must be the strongest enemy we have ever faced!" It was in response to seeing Jiren do what he did to Goku, not by measuring his ki, otherwise he would have concluded that much earlier.

[SupremeKai25]

If he could tank Vegito Blue's attack, how come he couldn't just sodomize Trunks who didn't even get a senzu bean? Even though he was falling apart, he went from fighting a Blue fusion to being defeated by a depleted SS2 with a broken sword in minutes.

He was still stronger than Trunks, at one point he even overpowered him, the problem once again was that Trunks was much more agile and nimble than him so he could fight evenly with him. The fact that Fused Zamasu ultimately lost to Trunks doesn't mean that he wasn't physically stronger than him, It just means that Trunks was lucky that he got to fight Fused Zamasu when his endurance was at its weakest.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

If he could tank Vegito Blue's attack, how come he couldn't just sodomize Trunks who didn't even get a senzu bean? Even though he was falling apart, he went from fighting a Blue fusion to being defeated by a depleted SS2 with a broken sword in minutes.

He was still stronger than Trunks, at one point he even overpowered him, the problem once again was that Trunks was much more agile and nimble than him so he could fight evenly with him. The fact that Fused Zamasu ultimately lost to Trunks doesn't mean that he wasn't physically stronger than him, It just means that Trunks was lucky that he got to fight Fused Zamasu when his endurance was at its weakest.

It was also a battle of wills. Merged Zamasu was losing himself the entire fight as he was being humiliated and enraged by the mortals, while Future Trunks persevered and kept going for the sake of protecting his friends, family, and everyone else left on Earth.

In the end, until Zamasu decided to rage-quit and go cheat-mode, Future Trunks was the one who had the will and sense of justice to win out.

[ruler9871]

Vegito does seem superior to Merged Zamasu but too by that much. The Chou Sensi stickers have Super Saiyan Blue Vegito at 9,300 and Merged Zamasu at 9,000.

God of Destruction Toppo was at 8,900 so Zamasu is probably GoD level. I can't remember what form he was in on the sticker though.

I don’t care what some non canon stickers say. GoD Toppo was entire leaques and orders of magnitude beyond the likes of Fused Zamasu and SSJ Blue Vegito. This was evidenced by the fact that a heavily suppressed Jiren in episode 109 was stated to be the strongest opponent Kaioshin had ever seen. Whis confirms this. Several episodes after Goku first went UIO, the newly improved SSJ Blue Goku was faring even better against a “powered up” Jiren. Than you have GoD Toppo who was even stronger than a SSBE Vegeta. Someone who is 20 times stronger than regular SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta.

GoD Toppo > Initial SSBE Vegeta > latest SSJ Blue Goku (by 20x) > Heavily Suppressed Jiren from episode 109 >>>> Merged Zamasu.

The actual show > some random cards.

This

[GodVegetto91]

No, he just said he was faster. You're twisting the words to make it seem as though he was calling Zamasu slower than before, when that simply is not the case.

Nope, that's wrong.

He says Zamasu can't keep up with his speed because of his body as it is right now, which is power weighted and that always makes you slow.

That's not at all what he said. You are comically fabricating dialogue that does not exist.

Vegito does seem superior to Merged Zamasu but too by that much. The Chou Sensi stickers have Super Saiyan Blue Vegito at 9,300 and Merged Zamasu at 9,000.

God of Destruction Toppo was at 8,900 so Zamasu is probably GoD level. I can't remember what form he was in on the sticker though.

Okay, the gaps on those stickers is never meant to be taken seriously, only the order that they are in, if anything. According to the same stickers, Gogeta is 100 stronger than Broly, and Gogeta dominated Broly, so this would comparatively depict Zamasu as an ant compared to Vegetto.

This was evidenced by the fact that a heavily suppressed Jiren in episode 109 was stated to be the strongest opponent Kaioshin had ever seen.

Well he said that KNOWING that Jiren was heavily suppressed, it doesn't necessarily mean the power he was exerting at that particular time was the strongest they had ever faced. It is akin to "He's dominating Goku, and he's not even trying! He must be the strongest enemy we have ever faced!" It was in response to seeing Jiren do what he did to Goku, not by measuring his ki, otherwise he would have concluded that much earlier.

That’s false logic. And it’s literally jumping to wild assumptions here. There is NO evidence Kaioshin took that into account. You are literally making this up. All we see is Kaioshin reacting to a feat. Something that happens right before his eyes. It’s time for you to become more objective pal. These are the facts. Thinking any deeper than that is literally adding headcanon to it.

[HeroR]

He mastered the technique as the episode title suggests. What he didn’t do was master the form that allowed him to used UI to begin with.

Episode title? Goku himself told he can’t use Ultra Instinct anymore. Goku mastering Ultra Instinct is a DB Heroes thing only.

I'm not talking about Heroes. I am talking about that he mastered the technique of UI since he can both attack and dodged at the same time. What he didn't master was the 'form' that gave him UI. The form and the technique are not the same thing.

That and the episode title for 129 is: Transcendent Limits Surpassed! Ultra Instinct Mastered!!

[HeroR]

That's not true at all. Vegetto did a power-up sequence in the anime and then proceeded to completely dominate Merged Zamasu before de-fusing. And the comments about him being strong were in reference to him being super suppressed and STILL being able to overpower Goku at his best, not that he was stronger than anything they had seen before at that particular time. Otherwise, 123 Goku would have to have been literally a minimum of 40,000x stronger than his FT arc self for him to surpass his previous Vegetto self considering that Base Vegetto~SSB Goku holds true.

Vegito didn’t power-up, Zamasu did and he survived a point blank Final Kamehameha. So it wasn’t a dominantion, otherwise Zamasu’s body should have been destroyed by Vegito.

You're just factually incorrect. Vegetto had an abundantly clear power-uo sequence where they literally show his aura flare up with white lightning around him as the camera zoomed out. He most definitely DID have a power-up that much is undeniable.

Yes, Merged Zamasu survived the FKHH, but he was otherwise completely dominated after the power-up, and it is certainly worth noting that Zamasu had regeneration.

How am I factually incorrect when Vegito literally said he would finished Merged Zamasu with his Final Kamehameha and yet Merged Zamasu came out without any damage? https://youtu.be/aA-YetL__5Q?t=924. In fact, in this same clip Vegito and Zamasu clashed again and they were even: https://youtu.be/aA-YetL__5Q?t=874

That wasn't Vegito powering up, that just him turning on his aura. He had the same flair here: https://youtu.be/1Xj-a5c3_2Y?t=22 and https://youtu.be/1Xj-a5c3_2Y?t=131. He doesn't even have his aura on when we next see him pounding on Zamasu.

We never saw Zamasu regeneration from the Final Kamehameha and again, if Vegito was so dominated, he should have outright destroyed Zamasu's body like this: https://youtu.be/cwnejwv6xzU?t=125

[Hugo Boss]

I am talking about that he mastered the technique of UI since he can both attack and dodged at the same time. What he didn't master was the 'form' that gave him UI. The form and the technique are not the same thing.

That and the episode title for 129 is: Transcendent Limits Surpassed! Ultra Instinct Mastered!!

That’s not what “master” means. It is perfecting your ability of using some technique. That’s what Goku did with Super Saiyan in Cell Arc. Goku can’t easily use Ultra Instinct or whatever the “form” that give him access to Ultra Instinct (there is no practical difference here). So no, it doesn’t matter what a title of an episode says, since the next episodes pretty much confirm he didn’t master Ultra Instinct. Actually, he admits he can’t even use it, that’s even worse than when he used Super Saiyan for the first time. All Goku did was using Ultra Instinct to its fullest for about a minute.

[SupremeKai25]

Interesting how Fused Zamasu initially was demolishing the mortals without any problem, in fact he was just toying with them. Then he lost the beam struggle against Trunks and Vegeta. That infuriated him, causing him to drop his smug attitude, and from that moment he deteroriated both mentally and phisically until his destruction. I would have to wonder if Fused Zamasu's defeat did not come from his lack of strength, but rather from his fear/insecurity/stress. It is a FACT that he was nigh-unstoppable upon his birth (he even oneshot SSB Goku and Vegeta at one point), so it's not like he suddenly became weaker than Trunks and the rest of his friends after he lost a beam struggle for the first time.

[HeroR]

I am talking about that he mastered the technique of UI since he can both attack and dodged at the same time. What he didn't master was the 'form' that gave him UI. The form and the technique are not the same thing.

That and the episode title for 129 is: Transcendent Limits Surpassed! Ultra Instinct Mastered!!

That’s not what “master” means. It is perfecting your ability of using some technique. That’s what Goku did with Super Saiyan in Cell Arc. Goku can’t easily use Ultra Instinct or whatever the “form” that give him access to Ultra Instinct (there is no practical difference here). So no, it doesn’t matter what a title of an episode says, since the next episodes pretty much confirm he didn’t master Ultra Instinct. Actually, he admits he can’t even use it, that’s even worse than when he used Super Saiyan for the first time. All Goku did was using Ultra Instinct to its fullest for about a minute.

It is since Goku was able to used both part of UI perfectly, so yes, he mastered the technique. Again, what he hasn't mastered was the transformation that gave him access to UI. Not the technique that is UI.The transformation and UI are two different things for Goku.

Also, according to Toriyama, Goku didn't really master Super Saiyan either, if you want want to split hairs since he still uses the extended Super Saiyan forms:

Goku endlessly keeps getting stronger, with Super Saiyan 3 in the manga and Super Saiyan 4 in the anime; does Super Saiyan keep getting limitlessly stronger too? Might we eventually see things such as a Super Saiyan 5…?!

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more. https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... mysteries/

[ankokudaishogun]

That and the episode title for 129 is: Transcendent Limits Surpassed! Ultra Instinct Mastered!!

No "Mastered" in the original title.

The original title uses "極まる" which means something "reaching its extreme" or "its end"
"Mastered" implies a control that is absent in the original title.

"Ultra Instinct Completed" or "Ultra Instinct Finalized" are probably better translation