Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PFM18]

Vegito didn’t power-up, Zamasu did and he survived a point blank Final Kamehameha. So it wasn’t a dominantion, otherwise Zamasu’s body should have been destroyed by Vegito.

You're just factually incorrect. Vegetto had an abundantly clear power-uo sequence where they literally show his aura flare up with white lightning around him as the camera zoomed out. He most definitely DID have a power-up that much is undeniable.

Yes, Merged Zamasu survived the FKHH, but he was otherwise completely dominated after the power-up, and it is certainly worth noting that Zamasu had regeneration.

How am I factually incorrect when Vegito literally said he would finished Merged Zamasu with his Final Kamehameha and yet Merged Zamasu came out without any damage? https://youtu.be/aA-YetL__5Q?t=924. In fact, in this same clip Vegito and Zamasu clashed again and they were even: https://youtu.be/aA-YetL__5Q?t=874

That wasn't Vegito powering up, that just him turning on his aura. He had the same flair here: https://youtu.be/1Xj-a5c3_2Y?t=22 and https://youtu.be/1Xj-a5c3_2Y?t=131. He doesn't even have his aura on when we next see him pounding on Zamasu.

We never saw Zamasu regeneration from the Final Kamehameha and again, if Vegito was so dominated, he should have outright destroyed Zamasu's body like this: https://youtu.be/cwnejwv6xzU?t=125

If you say he didn't power-up, you simply are factually incorrect. They were clearly trying to depict this being the case. His aura flared and then they showed white lightning surrounding him and the camera zooms out showing that the city was being enveloped by this white lightning aura. If that isn't showing that a character is going full-power, then I don't know what does.

We didn't see him regenerate from it, sure, but he was also covered in smoke for a period and presumably regenerated there.

Nope, that's wrong.

He says Zamasu can't keep up with his speed because of his body as it is right now, which is power weighted and that always makes you slow.

That's not at all what he said. You are comically fabricating dialogue that does not exist.

Vegito does seem superior to Merged Zamasu but too by that much. The Chou Sensi stickers have Super Saiyan Blue Vegito at 9,300 and Merged Zamasu at 9,000.

God of Destruction Toppo was at 8,900 so Zamasu is probably GoD level. I can't remember what form he was in on the sticker though.

Okay, the gaps on those stickers is never meant to be taken seriously, only the order that they are in, if anything. According to the same stickers, Gogeta is 100 stronger than Broly, and Gogeta dominated Broly, so this would comparatively depict Zamasu as an ant compared to Vegetto.

This was evidenced by the fact that a heavily suppressed Jiren in episode 109 was stated to be the strongest opponent Kaioshin had ever seen.

Well he said that KNOWING that Jiren was heavily suppressed, it doesn't necessarily mean the power he was exerting at that particular time was the strongest they had ever faced. It is akin to "He's dominating Goku, and he's not even trying! He must be the strongest enemy we have ever faced!" It was in response to seeing Jiren do what he did to Goku, not by measuring his ki, otherwise he would have concluded that much earlier.

That’s false logic. And it’s literally jumping to wild assumptions here. There is NO evidence Kaioshin took that into account. You are literally making this up. All we see is Kaioshin reacting to a feat. Something that happens right before his eyes. It’s time for you to become more objective pal. These are the facts. Thinking any deeper than that is literally adding headcanon to it.

So, does the phrase "I sense a far higher power within him" just mean nothing to you or what? Or "Jiren appears to be far from his full-power"?

[Miracles]

With regards to the level of God of Destruction and beyond, I view it in a kind of story-based lens.

Vegito and Merged Zamasu showcase the main protagonists and antagonists finally reaching the level of God of Destruction as part of the narrative of that arc, whilst the Tournament of Power has them surpassing it entirely with Jiren and Ultra Instinct.

The Broly movie, then, is kinda like the U6/7 Tournament in that sense. Our characters are stronger than ever, but the established ceilings are technically lower than before or haven't been surpassed; Broly and Gogeta aren't above Jiren and Ultra Instinct, at least as far as the narrative of the progression is telling me.

Narrative progression doesnt tell us anything at all. In regards to broly, he is likely stronger than possibly the strongest GoD, while gogeta stomps anyone on that level. In regards to jiren, he is stronger than belmod, and UI Goku shits on that level.

This again, like the dozens of pages of debates before, reaches no conclusions other than these mentioned characters have power that probably surpasses GoD level. Who is stronger is completely up in the air. No one is right at the moment.

Narrative progression tells us everything. It's how Dragonball always worked. It took Goku and Vegeta's strongest trump card in fusion to defeat Broly. A Goku and Vegeta merging was always used for enemies way out of their dimension of power in DB canon.

The fact that it took a Blue fusion of Goku and Vegeta to defeat a single character in Broly automatically states he is stronger than all past enemies.

To top it off Goku doesn't even know if the enemy that needed fusion to beat him is stronger than Beerus, which is another fact of Beerus superiority over Jiren and Belmond.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

With regards to the level of God of Destruction and beyond, I view it in a kind of story-based lens.

Vegito and Merged Zamasu showcase the main protagonists and antagonists finally reaching the level of God of Destruction as part of the narrative of that arc, whilst the Tournament of Power has them surpassing it entirely with Jiren and Ultra Instinct.

The Broly movie, then, is kinda like the U6/7 Tournament in that sense. Our characters are stronger than ever, but the established ceilings are technically lower than before or haven't been surpassed; Broly and Gogeta aren't above Jiren and Ultra Instinct, at least as far as the narrative of the progression is telling me.

Narrative progression doesnt tell us anything at all. In regards to broly, he is likely stronger than possibly the strongest GoD, while gogeta stomps anyone on that level. In regards to jiren, he is stronger than belmod, and UI Goku shits on that level.

This again, like the dozens of pages of debates before, reaches no conclusions other than these mentioned characters have power that probably surpasses GoD level. Who is stronger is completely up in the air. No one is right at the moment.

Narrative progression tells us everything. It's how Dragonball always worked. It took Goku and Vegeta's strongest trump card in fusion to defeat Broly. A Goku and Vegeta merging was always used for enemies way out of their dimension of power in DB canon.

The fact that it took a Blue fusion of Goku and Vegeta to defeat a single character in Broly automatically states he is stronger than all past enemies.

To top it off Goku doesn't even know if the enemy that needed fusion to beat him is stronger than Beerus, which is another fact of Beerus superiority over Jiren and Belmond.

At the same time, plenty of feat and scaling analyses, plus a little personal interpretation, can very easily swing the argument one way or another. It's not clear-cut by any stretch of the imagination.

The fact that all of us have wildly varying interpretation despite all of us very likely having a good grasp on the narrative beats and general feats analysis should tell you how muddled the whole debate can get.

[Miracles]

Narrative progression doesnt tell us anything at all. In regards to broly, he is likely stronger than possibly the strongest GoD, while gogeta stomps anyone on that level. In regards to jiren, he is stronger than belmod, and UI Goku shits on that level.

This again, like the dozens of pages of debates before, reaches no conclusions other than these mentioned characters have power that probably surpasses GoD level. Who is stronger is completely up in the air. No one is right at the moment.

Narrative progression tells us everything. It's how Dragonball always worked. It took Goku and Vegeta's strongest trump card in fusion to defeat Broly. A Goku and Vegeta merging was always used for enemies way out of their dimension of power in DB canon.

The fact that it took a Blue fusion of Goku and Vegeta to defeat a single character in Broly automatically states he is stronger than all past enemies.

To top it off Goku doesn't even know if the enemy that needed fusion to beat him is stronger than Beerus, which is another fact of Beerus superiority over Jiren and Belmond.

At the same time, plenty of feat and scaling analyses, plus a little personal interpretation, can very easily swing the argument one way or another. It's not clear-cut by any stretch of the imagination.

The fact that all of us have wildly varying interpretation despite all of us very likely having a good grasp on the narrative beats and general feats analysis should tell you how muddled the whole debate can get.

Well that is just it. The feats and scaling are subject to the plot. If we just take the story as is, without outside interpretation, no add on's and excluding of texts, the current Broly movie is substantiated by the narration that came before it.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Narrative progression tells us everything. It's how Dragonball always worked. It took Goku and Vegeta's strongest trump card in fusion to defeat Broly. A Goku and Vegeta merging was always used for enemies way out of their dimension of power in DB canon.

The fact that it took a Blue fusion of Goku and Vegeta to defeat a single character in Broly automatically states he is stronger than all past enemies.

To top it off Goku doesn't even know if the enemy that needed fusion to beat him is stronger than Beerus, which is another fact of Beerus superiority over Jiren and Belmond.

At the same time, plenty of feat and scaling analyses, plus a little personal interpretation, can very easily swing the argument one way or another. It's not clear-cut by any stretch of the imagination.

The fact that all of us have wildly varying interpretation despite all of us very likely having a good grasp on the narrative beats and general feats analysis should tell you how muddled the whole debate can get.

Well that is just it. The feats and scaling are subject to the plot. If we just take the story as is, without outside interpretation, no add on's and excluding of texts, the current Broly movie is substantiated by the narration that came before it.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. You're interpreting the narrative beats as YOu see them, just as many of us are interpreting them as WE see them. It's not a "there's only one way to look at it" scenario here. Plenty of people see different things from the exact same story.

For example, my take is that, taking only the narrative into account, Broly doesn't come off as this ultimate threat but rather one of a new line of foes above the level of God of Destruction. Jiren was the first, the one to push the envelope much like Beerus did in BoG who pushed the envelope; in that same vein, I think we have a repeat of that narrative where the first great new foe hasn't been surpassed by successive foes.

[Miracles]

At the same time, plenty of feat and scaling analyses, plus a little personal interpretation, can very easily swing the argument one way or another. It's not clear-cut by any stretch of the imagination.

The fact that all of us have wildly varying interpretation despite all of us very likely having a good grasp on the narrative beats and general feats analysis should tell you how muddled the whole debate can get.

Well that is just it. The feats and scaling are subject to the plot. If we just take the story as is, without outside interpretation, no add on's and excluding of texts, the current Broly movie is substantiated by the narration that came before it.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. You're interpreting the narrative beats as YOu see them, just as many of us are interpreting them as WE see them. It's not a "there's only one way to look at it" scenario here. Plenty of people see different things from the exact same story.

For example, my take is that, taking only the narrative into account, Broly doesn't come off as this ultimate threat but rather one of a new line of foes above the level of God of Destruction. Jiren was the first, the one to push the envelope much like Beerus did in BoG who pushed the envelope; in that same vein, I think we have a repeat of that narrative where the first great new foe hasn't been surpassed by successive foes.

Well lets put your theory to the test. You claim we all are interpreting things in our own way as if there is no set standard or rule to follow. For example...Lets see who matches the story...

Check out your bold...Can you show me where it was stated in the story that Jiren was stronger than the level of god of destruction [interpreting/implying that he surpassed all of the gods]?

Cause I will show you where it states that Jiren only surpassed his god in his universe.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Well that is just it. The feats and scaling are subject to the plot. If we just take the story as is, without outside interpretation, no add on's and excluding of texts, the current Broly movie is substantiated by the narration that came before it.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. You're interpreting the narrative beats as YOu see them, just as many of us are interpreting them as WE see them. It's not a "there's only one way to look at it" scenario here. Plenty of people see different things from the exact same story.

For example, my take is that, taking only the narrative into account, Broly doesn't come off as this ultimate threat but rather one of a new line of foes above the level of God of Destruction. Jiren was the first, the one to push the envelope much like Beerus did in BoG who pushed the envelope; in that same vein, I think we have a repeat of that narrative where the first great new foe hasn't been surpassed by successive foes.

Well lets put your theory to the test. You claim we all are interpreting things in our own way as if there is no set standard or rule to follow. For example...Lets see who matches the story...

Check out your bold...Can you show me where it was stated in the story that Jiren was stronger than the level of god of destruction [interpreting/implying that he surpassed all of the gods]?

Cause I will show you where it states that Jiren only surpassed his god in his universe.

In the manga, yes. In the anime, Whis confirms that Jiren is the mortal whom even a God of Destruction cannot defeat, one that is even stronger than Beerus according to Whis whom is more reliable a source than Beerus the liar. He speculates that he may have even surpassed that level. And that's just his normal full power, based purely on how suppressed Jiren was

When he breaks his limits by remembering his trauma, he awakens his hidden power and ascends past even this level, managing to hold his own and even occasionally catch Ultra Instinct, whom had previously beaten around his full power that was said to have reached the level of God of Destruction and may have surpassed it, the power that even a God of Destruction cannot beat where said God of Destruction is stronger than Beerus, as stated by Whis whom is more reliable a source than Beerus the liar.

[Miracles]

That's exactly what I'm talking about. You're interpreting the narrative beats as YOu see them, just as many of us are interpreting them as WE see them. It's not a "there's only one way to look at it" scenario here. Plenty of people see different things from the exact same story.

For example, my take is that, taking only the narrative into account, Broly doesn't come off as this ultimate threat but rather one of a new line of foes above the level of God of Destruction. Jiren was the first, the one to push the envelope much like Beerus did in BoG who pushed the envelope; in that same vein, I think we have a repeat of that narrative where the first great new foe hasn't been surpassed by successive foes.

Well lets put your theory to the test. You claim we all are interpreting things in our own way as if there is no set standard or rule to follow. For example...Lets see who matches the story...

Check out your bold...Can you show me where it was stated in the story that Jiren was stronger than the level of god of destruction [interpreting/implying that he surpassed all of the gods]?

Cause I will show you where it states that Jiren only surpassed his god in his universe.

In the manga, yes. In the anime, Whis confirms that Jiren is the mortal whom even a God of Destruction cannot defeat, one that is even stronger than Beerus according to Whis whom is more reliable a source than Beerus the liar. He speculates that he may have even surpassed that level. And that's just his normal full power, based purely on how suppressed Jiren was

When he breaks his limits by remembering his trauma, he awakens his hidden power and ascends past even this level, managing to hold his own and even occasionally catch Ultra Instinct, whom had previously beaten around his full power that was said to have reached the level of God of Destruction and may have surpassed it, the power that even a God of Destruction cannot beat where said God of Destruction is stronger than Beerus, as stated by Whis whom is more reliable a source than Beerus the liar.

You see what you did there? You added in and took away text just to fit your own narration. Nowhere did it state that Beerus was lying about arm wrestling but only you call him a liar when the story did not.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I may have exaggerated a bit, but the point still stands that Beerus is a known unreliable source.

Whis is more reliable, and at no point did Beerus actually deny that Whis was wrong; he just brushed it off with "never lost to another God of Destruction actually". You don't need to fight someone to know how they measure up, and I'm inclined to believe that Whis would know better on the subject as an Angel who trained Beerus over Beerus himself.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Guys, please tell me, what indicates that when talking about Jiren's power, Shin referred to Astral Zamasu as the being with the most power that they had faced yet and not Merged Zamasu?

Because, if I use some of that crusification-worthy logic, Astral Zamasu was never directly involved in a fight with Goku and Vegeta. They fired some blasts at him while in Base (something that even Stage I Merged Zamasu could have countered) and we only get some comments from Gowasu, that he (Zamasu) was trying to become the universe.

If so, the only time we get a comment implying Zamasu's might, was when he faced off against our heroes while in his corrupted form. The point is, that if Zamasu was trying to become everything, then that would make him the multiverse. That translates into multiversal power potency. The only being that is known to have that power is Zeno.

Astral Zamasu needed time to spread across the existence, so I highly doubt that he even reached a solar system level of expansion, by the time Zeno arrived, however the question still remains.

When encountering a supressed Jiren for the first time, everyone was shocked by his power. At that level, he was slightly pushed back by Ultra Instinct Omen Goku, who was certainly below the level of a GoD, as no one stood in awe of his power, despite Ultra Instinct being an ability that even GoDs cannot attain easily. As such, the original suprise in the gods faces was perhaps due to a mortal without the power of a GoD, achieving the state.

Back to my main point, although Goku and Vegeta got way stronger since the Future Trunks Arc, if Jiren in his supressed state was referred to as a being with more power than Astral Zamasu, who was trying to become EVERYTHING (note that when he appeared as Astral Zamasu, no one said "ah, he is not at full power yet" as they believed that he was going to become the multiverse, meaning that they scaled him at that level of power), then I highly doubt that ep. 110 Jiren was on par (if we lowball) with Astral Zamasu. Limit-Breaking Jiren should be able to fight with the Grand Priest with ease then.

I could use some non-cannon material to further back my argument, or actually suggestion (I can see that everyone does lol) but it would complicate things.

[SupremeKai25]

Nothing suggests that Shin was referring to Infinite Zamasu when he said that Jiren was the strongest enemy they ever faced, that's correct. In fact, they never faced Infinite Zamasu, they merely tickled him and were stomped in a few seconds. That was not a battle at all, thus they never faced Infinite Zamasu.

And Infinite Zamasu was a far more insidious enemy than Jiren since he merged with the very fabric of the cosmos, so the only way to defeat him would be to destroy the multiverse itself, and even that wouldn't work unless you are Zeno as even the Hakai cannot destroy an immortal being.

I don't care about Shin's vague statement, facts prove that Infinite Zamasu was a far more dangerous threat than Jiren. Brute strength is not everything.

[PFM18]

Guys, please tell me, what indicates that when talking about Jiren's power, Shin referred to Astral Zamasu as the being with the most power that they had faced yet and not Merged Zamasu?

Because, if I use some of that crusification-worthy logic, Astral Zamasu was never directly involved in a fight with Goku and Vegeta. They fired some blasts at him while in Base (something that even Stage I Merged Zamasu could have countered) and we only get some comments from Gowasu, that he (Zamasu) was trying to become the universe.

If so, the only time we get a comment implying Zamasu's might, was when he faced off against our heroes while in his corrupted form. The point is, that if Zamasu was trying to become everything, then that would make him the multiverse. That translates into multiversal power potency. The only being that is known to have that power is Zeno.

Astral Zamasu needed time to spread across the existence, so I highly doubt that he even reached a solar system level of expansion, by the time Zeno arrived, however the question still remains.

When encountering a supressed Jiren for the first time, everyone was shocked by his power. At that level, he was slightly pushed back by Ultra Instinct Omen Goku, who was certainly below the level of a GoD, as no one stood in awe of his power, despite Ultra Instinct being an ability that even GoDs cannot attain easily. As such, the original suprise in the gods faces was perhaps due to a mortal without the power of a GoD, achieving the state.

Back to my main point, although Goku and Vegeta got way stronger since the Future Trunks Arc, if Jiren in his supressed state was referred to as a being with more power than Astral Zamasu, who was trying to become EVERYTHING (note that when he appeared as Astral Zamasu, no one said "ah, he is not at full power yet" as they believed that he was going to become the multiverse, meaning that they scaled him at that level of power), then I highly doubt that ep. 110 Jiren was on par (if we lowball) with Astral Zamasu. Limit-Breaking Jiren should be able to fight with the Grand Priest with ease then.

I could use some non-cannon material to further back my argument, or actually suggestion (I can see that everyone does lol) but it would complicate things.

I don't even buy this implication that 110 Jiren>Merged Zamasu in the first place. The comment by Kaioshin is commented by two explicit comments recognizing that he is far from full-power, and that they can sense a higher power within him, the context of the statement indicates very clearly that he is not the strongest ever at that particular level, it is acknowledging his hidden power and recognizing that he's beating KKx20 without even trying at all, not that he already has the highest ki ever. Also, if 110 Jiren were stronger than Merged Zamasu and Blue Vegetto, it would totally fuck up the scaling in general. It would make the numbers almost impossible to work.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Phew, for a moment there I thought that I would be viewed as a stupid power-scaling wannabe.

Anyway, if both of you actually agree with me, then please tell me, why does most of the fandom refer to Astral Zamasu when comparing him with Jiren? Because (yes I will do it) SDBH showed us that Merged Zamasu was trying to harm Jiren, with the latter responding only after Zamasu was preoccupied with attacking Goku. Of course, Jiren was an absolute beast and didn't even power-up, so according to SDBH data, they clearly acknowledge Jiren's power, keeping it relevant to what we have seen in cannon.

So, if we had the hypothetical "Zamasu vs Jiren" match, which we kinda got (but not in cannon), then Jiren should have annihilated Zamasu with the blink of an eye. He didn't though...

[Noah]

I still think that Beerus is above Goku, Vegeta, Broly and Jiren but as individuals.

[PFM18]

Phew, for a moment there I thought that I would be viewed as a stupid power-scaling wannabe.

Anyway, if both of you actually agree with me, then please tell me, why does most of the fandom refer to Astral Zamasu when comparing him with Jiren? Because (yes I will do it) SDBH showed us that Merged Zamasu was trying to harm Jiren, with the latter responding only after Zamasu was preoccupied with attacking Goku. Of course, Jiren was an absolute beast and didn't even power-up, so according to SDBH data, they clearly acknowledge Jiren's power, keeping it relevant to what we have seen in cannon.

So, if we had the hypothetical "Zamasu vs Jiren" match, which we kinda got (but not in cannon), then Jiren should have annihilated Zamasu with the blink of an eye. He didn't though...

Most of the fandom believes that Goku in 122 was stronger than SSB Vegetto in the FT arc in equivalent forms. Most of the fandom believes that Merged Zamasu is a complete joke in the context of DBS, hell, most people think that Roshi could one shot everything in Z, and most people used mistranslations to justify RoF Base Goku>>>>BoG SSG Goku.

In other words, most people are stupid.

Also, regarding Dragon Ball Heroes, it holds absolutely no relevance in regards to the actual main continuity or "canon."

[Grand Marshal 1]

Phew, for a moment there I thought that I would be viewed as a stupid power-scaling wannabe.

Anyway, if both of you actually agree with me, then please tell me, why does most of the fandom refer to Astral Zamasu when comparing him with Jiren? Because (yes I will do it) SDBH showed us that Merged Zamasu was trying to harm Jiren, with the latter responding only after Zamasu was preoccupied with attacking Goku. Of course, Jiren was an absolute beast and didn't even power-up, so according to SDBH data, they clearly acknowledge Jiren's power, keeping it relevant to what we have seen in cannon.

So, if we had the hypothetical "Zamasu vs Jiren" match, which we kinda got (but not in cannon), then Jiren should have annihilated Zamasu with the blink of an eye. He didn't though...

Most of the fandom believes that Goku in 122 was stronger than SSB Vegetto in the FT arc in equivalent forms. Most of the fandom believes that Merged Zamasu is a complete joke in the context of DBS, hell, most people think that Roshi could one shot everything in Z, and most people used mistranslations to justify RoF Base Goku>>>>BoG SSG Goku.

In other words, most people are stupid.

The last part especially triggers me the most. SBG was retconned and God ki in Base doesn't mean SSJG in Base. Only Goku Black could have the potential of having such a level of power, due to his already divine status.

But wouldn't Golden (not True Golden, Golden) Freeza be more than capable in fighting against the likes of Beerus, instead of being afraid of him? Because remember, that only after his training in hell, when he got his new form, did he considered to rise against the gods.

[PFM18]

Phew, for a moment there I thought that I would be viewed as a stupid power-scaling wannabe.

Anyway, if both of you actually agree with me, then please tell me, why does most of the fandom refer to Astral Zamasu when comparing him with Jiren? Because (yes I will do it) SDBH showed us that Merged Zamasu was trying to harm Jiren, with the latter responding only after Zamasu was preoccupied with attacking Goku. Of course, Jiren was an absolute beast and didn't even power-up, so according to SDBH data, they clearly acknowledge Jiren's power, keeping it relevant to what we have seen in cannon.

So, if we had the hypothetical "Zamasu vs Jiren" match, which we kinda got (but not in cannon), then Jiren should have annihilated Zamasu with the blink of an eye. He didn't though...

Most of the fandom believes that Goku in 122 was stronger than SSB Vegetto in the FT arc in equivalent forms. Most of the fandom believes that Merged Zamasu is a complete joke in the context of DBS, hell, most people think that Roshi could one shot everything in Z, and most people used mistranslations to justify RoF Base Goku>>>>BoG SSG Goku.

In other words, most people are stupid.

The last part especially triggers me the most. SBG was retconned and God ki in Base doesn't mean SSJG in Base. Only Goku Black could have the potential of having such a level of power, due to his already divine status.

But wouldn't Golden (not True Golden, Golden) Freeza be more than capable in fighting against the likes of Beerus, instead of being afraid of him? Because remember, that only after his training in hell, when he got his new form, did he considered to rise against the gods.

Yeah, SBG isn't a thing there's no such thing as God Ki in Base or "SSG level in Base" or such. I totally agree, especially in respect to Black.

I think Freeza's rise against the Gods was meant to be more strategic than with brute force. I think he recognizes that even after becoming stronger he still is nothing to Beerus.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Phew, for a moment there I thought that I would be viewed as a stupid power-scaling wannabe.

Anyway, if both of you actually agree with me, then please tell me, why does most of the fandom refer to Astral Zamasu when comparing him with Jiren? Because (yes I will do it) SDBH showed us that Merged Zamasu was trying to harm Jiren, with the latter responding only after Zamasu was preoccupied with attacking Goku. Of course, Jiren was an absolute beast and didn't even power-up, so according to SDBH data, they clearly acknowledge Jiren's power, keeping it relevant to what we have seen in cannon.

So, if we had the hypothetical "Zamasu vs Jiren" match, which we kinda got (but not in cannon), then Jiren should have annihilated Zamasu with the blink of an eye. He didn't though...

To be fair, Punished Zamasu is a lot stronger than he was before, able to take down God of Destruction Toppo and Dyspo in the manga. Even then, in the manga, him, Cumber, and Hearts took on Jiren all at once and didn't defeat him. He's also stronger than SS2 Kefla in the games.

Plus, in a direct fight, Jiren is still shown to be superior to him in the promotional anime.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Most of the fandom believes that Goku in 122 was stronger than SSB Vegetto in the FT arc in equivalent forms. Most of the fandom believes that Merged Zamasu is a complete joke in the context of DBS, hell, most people think that Roshi could one shot everything in Z, and most people used mistranslations to justify RoF Base Goku>>>>BoG SSG Goku.

In other words, most people are stupid.

The last part especially triggers me the most. SBG was retconned and God ki in Base doesn't mean SSJG in Base. Only Goku Black could have the potential of having such a level of power, due to his already divine status.

But wouldn't Golden (not True Golden, Golden) Freeza be more than capable in fighting against the likes of Beerus, instead of being afraid of him? Because remember, that only after his training in hell, when he got his new form, did he considered to rise against the gods.

Yeah, SBG isn't a thing there's no such thing as God Ki in Base or "SSG level in Base" or such. I totally agree, especially in respect to Black.

I think Freeza's rise against the Gods was meant to be more strategic than with brute force. I think he recognizes that even after becoming stronger he still is nothing to Beerus.

I assume that you are correct. Please tell me though. What do you think that happened with Goku and Vegeta after their initial training with Whis and their rise as SSJGs? I don't think that God Ki in base is a thing, but after they transformed into gods for the first time, I think that they did get a boost in power. Nothing "goldy-related".

I just think that 50% Final Freeza was on a scale similar to that on Namek, when facing the Saiyans. We shouldn't take Freeza's power as meaningless, nor his 4-month training as not substancial for such growth. However, Goku could fight him in Base...Is it too much to say that Goku got ×20 times stronger in his Base after the training with Whis and the events of the BoG arc taking place?

You know, just like on Namek
KK×20 Goku ≈ 50% Final Freeza

But now, he even had the upper hand in some instances. Tell me what you think.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Phew, for a moment there I thought that I would be viewed as a stupid power-scaling wannabe.

Anyway, if both of you actually agree with me, then please tell me, why does most of the fandom refer to Astral Zamasu when comparing him with Jiren? Because (yes I will do it) SDBH showed us that Merged Zamasu was trying to harm Jiren, with the latter responding only after Zamasu was preoccupied with attacking Goku. Of course, Jiren was an absolute beast and didn't even power-up, so according to SDBH data, they clearly acknowledge Jiren's power, keeping it relevant to what we have seen in cannon.

So, if we had the hypothetical "Zamasu vs Jiren" match, which we kinda got (but not in cannon), then Jiren should have annihilated Zamasu with the blink of an eye. He didn't though...

To be fair, Punished Zamasu is a lot stronger than he was before, able to take down God of Destruction Toppo and Dyspo in the manga. Even then, in the manga, him, Cumber, and Hearts took on Jiren all at once and didn't defeat him. He's also stronger than SS2 Kefla in the games.

Plus, in a direct fight, Jiren is still shown to be superior to him in the promotional anime.

Indeed. I still kinda question the whole Zamasu revival thing though. If all, he should have been weaker. But Jiren is still one of the most powerful foes. Stronger than anything Zamasu as a being could have hoped to achieve. I just think that Astral Zamasu has far greater attack potency from Jiren.